JPJ Contract

[Avoid_Lloyd]

And I'm not gonna take personal crap from you either. Now let's get a few facts out there. What in depth analysis have you done supporting your belief he isn't worthy of top ten money? Very little! I on the other hand went into some very detailed rankings (outside of INTS and pass defenses) of important metrics supporting him getting paid in the upper tier of CBs. If all you are going to do is base your belief on him not being worth of say 28 or 29 mil a year on "game changing plays" then frankly it's obvious to people know football that I've laid out a better case. You just throw lazy slop at the wall and then call people straw men or losers as your strategy. Second, you continue to bring up legends like Polamalu as your basis for him getting paid top money and again that's a weak argument. Some will argue they would have taken Reed over Polly in their generation but personally I'd take Polamalu for he was a complete safety. Regardless you can easily argue that Polly was the very best safety of his generation. He wasn't just HOF first ballot he was the very best during his career. Essentially then since Troy was the best at his position during his day, making the claim that you wouldn't pay him top money because he doesn't do what Troy did, you are essentially saying because Joey isn't the best CB of his generation he shouldn't get top pay. That's absurd. You are using a first ballot HOF and his game changing nature as your basis. You can throw around strawman and loser and all kinds of stuff at me but you are the one who sounds dumb by making this argument but please comtinue making that argument so you can sound even sillier. For Joey to get say 28 to 29 a year he needs to be around the best CBs in the league and based upon ALL the various metrics out there he actually is if you decided to stop throwing slop at the wall and actually do some homework but you want to base him getting top 10 money on just game changing plays. If you paid him in the very high 20s you can still say he's getting less then the Surtains of the world but he feels good about getting paid right around that level. Yes DK and Herbig are different positions but the Steelers set a precedent. I'm not gonna get into a debate about their contracts but his agent is also looking at those contracts and ONCE they have been put out there I don't see how the FO can justify on relative terms paying Joey say mid 20s because where does DK rank pay wise and where does he rank as a receiver in the NFL? And Herbig with all his promise has been a backup and is getting 24 a year. His agent is looking at where Joey sits and where the pay is and the recent FO signings and he's gonna want High 20s if not around 30. I don't think he gets 30 but Joey's agent can easily make the case for getting say 28 to 29 based on his play on the field and the metrics back that up. Keep basing your belief system on game changing plays if you'd like but there is so much more to the game then that and I'm assuming you know this. So if you know this are you not taking into consideration because you are stubborn?

Thank you for just making an argument, I can respect that.

When you make assumptions about me supporting Tomlin (when a 5 minute scroll through my posts would show you otherwise and you say you've already looked at my stuff as proof I'm not very smart, saying Tomlin should "think more like you" (Tomlin did a bad job the past few years, many professional coaches could have done better, but unless you're posting from an office at an NFL practice facility you've got about as good of a chance of curing cancer as out thinking him about NFL defense), or compare me to Joe frickin Biden you come off like a troll, or at the least a pretentious jerk. Maybe I caught you on a bad day-I'm past it, your move on if we keep flaming each other.

You make some good points in JPJ's favor, he's definitely a key player on the team and has an exciting future, I hope he ends up being the best corner in the league for a long time for us and you can tell me to eat crow at the end of this season.

I currently don't see him as a seismic game changing player, not like Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, Darelle Revis, James Harrison, or even Ike Taylor. I look at what those players did and I don't think Porter is there, you don't half to agree. So I don't think he's worth top 10 money, call me stubborn if you want, that's all good, we're going to agree to disagree on Porter. Have a good night.

 

[Litos]

You are losing points for lack of paragraphing my dude.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

I pulled up the career INT #'s and the 2025 PDs so I'm not quite sure what you mean by "not last year." I already posted his penalty stats from last year and they are similar or better to many of the names you have rated ahead of him. Porter measures up well in many areas to some of the top CBs in the game. I think many have a clouded judgement of him because of the handsy issue in college and earlier in his career. It's just hard to knock him for his production numbers that you've brought up when they are on par with the other elite corners in the league.

He didnt lead most of that group in INT's last year

 

[stillwright]

He didnt lead most of that group in INT's last year

If most on your list had 1 int last year...... he would be right there with them. No?

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

If most on your list had 1 int last year...... he would be right there with them. No?

Ok if you want to say his 1 pick this year among other guys with 1 pick puts him in an elite class and is worth 30 million- cool

i don’t think he’s a top 10 corner, you don’t half to agree

 

[stillwright]

Ok if you want to say his 1 pick this year among other guys with 1 pick puts him in an elite class and is worth 30 million- cool

i don’t think he’s a top 10 corner, you don’t half to agree

I asked what 10 people were above him. You listed 7 players. I didn't list them. You did. And half of them are getting paid the amount you don't want Porter to get paid. Make it make sense.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

I asked what 10 people were above him. You listed 7 players. I didn't list them. You did. And half of them are getting paid the amount you don't want Porter to get paid. Make it make sense.

He’s hasnt been a top 10 corner, or a big time game changer, just my opinion, that is all

 

[SteelerFan448]

He didnt lead most of that group in INT's last year

I posted career INT stats. Most of the CBs you have rated better than Porter have 3 or fewer career INTs--one of them has 0.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

I posted career INT stats. Most of the CBs you have rated better than Porter have 3 or fewer career INTs--one of them has 0.

Did you watch JPJ last year, or earlier years, and think he’s a top corner in the league? I didn’t. It looks like Omar didn’t either or JPJ would be signed to 30 million a year already

If you did, all good

 

[SteelerFan448]

Did you watch JPJ last year, or earlier years, and think he’s a top corner in the league? I didn’t. It looks like Omar didn’t either or JPJ would be signed to 30 million a year already

If you did, all good

Yeah, I've watched him every year. Last year, he was one of their top 3 defenders along with Heyward and Highsmith. Statistically, he compares to many of the top 10 CBs in the league (in terms of INTs, PDs, and penalties). Passer rating against and TDs allowed are also at an elite level.

However, he's not a top 3 CB so I'm not giving him $30+ million. If it's $27-28 million, whatever. If he's asking for $25 million, it should've been done yesterday.

 

[stillwright]

He’s hasnt been a top 10 corner, or a big time game changer, just my opinion, that is all

So the players you listed above him have fewer ints....and fewer passes defended.....areas you brought up that didn't make Porter top 10. Then we look at the stats and it shows just opposite of what your arguement is. Now your argument is that it is just your opinion that Porter isn't top 10. Fair enough.

 

[Polambertberger]

Well i see some signs or an olive brach so I'll do the same and I apologize for being a dick at times.

That said =) I will clarify some things. I brought up earlier. The Tomlin thing pertained to one concept and one only and that was his penchant for splash plays and as much as they are important God we've had a very expensive defense that's underachieving while simultaneously getting a lot of turnovers in many years under him and so I was questioning the importance of splash plays in Joey because after all if we have done so well with turnovers as a team and underachieving as a defense maybe the splash plays with Joey aren't as important as we think.

In regard to Mr. Biden, you jousted me for being a new member. Just making a point that longevity in an organization doesn't necessarily equate to excellence. So what I'm new

Now let's get on to your recent post....

"Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, Darelle Revis, James Harrison, or even Ike Taylor"

Why do you keep brining up Polly as a comparison? The dude is an all time great.....it's just not a sensible comparison. To be paid within arms reach of the best you shouldn't have to be the best of your era at your position.

Revis......another HOF......don't think that's sensible because frankly if you are saying he only deserves to be paid amongst say the top ten cbs if he is the best cb in the league and a future hofer........so he can be paid as say the 7th best corner in the league if he's the very best one? Not an apples to apples situation

Now let's down to James, Aaron, Casey, and Ike.

You are contradicting yourself with throwing Snack in there.......he was the epitome of "glue" without the game changing plays. Under your basis for getting paid, Casey didn't deserve top pay at his position because after all where were all the game changing plays there. He did the things that didn't show up on the stat sheets that people are obsessed over......but I would say like Joey he does change the trajectory of the game like Snack did.

As far as James (my 2nd favorite Steeler ever -Polly being number 1) for that say 5 year stretch he was the best OLB and frankly should be in the HOF for his peak performance years. He's not Polly or Revis but man he was the face of that D for a while so no I don't think comparing him to.James is relative either when considering whether he should get paid in the top 10. James was the best.......Joey isn't but the argument isn't whether he should get paid the most now is it? You are taking guys thatbwere one or two at their position and then saying Joey shouldn't get top 10 money because what he's not 1 or 2 at his position? Not apples to apples

Now let's get down to Aaron (another glue guy for the Steelers) and a great player but not exactly a splash guy either like James or Polly either . If you bring up Snack and Aaron as comparisons for Joey being worthy of top ten pay but constantly bring up splash plays as one of your main reasons why you wouldn't pay him then why bring Snack and Aaron into.the argument?.

Over 13 years Aaron had 7 forced fumbles, 9 fumble recoveries, and 44 sacks. Yes his role was to eat up blockers for James and Joey and stunt blitzes I get it but that's what I'm saying about Joey. He does all of those nuanced things on the field at an elite level outside of INTs, and pass defenses. Qbs aren't throwing to him because he's not giving separation. When they do throw his way their success rate stinks. Have you ever thought that one of the reasons Watt, Herbig, or Hightsmith get sacks is influenced by what Joey prevents just like how Aaron or Snack helped James or Joey? Joey's metrics are there

As far as Ike another outstanding player it took him until his 3rd year to become a starter. I know he was a fourth rounder and a project so to be expected but just think how long it took Ike to become really good. Joey's ceiling is higher than Ikes and that's the point. You aren't just paying Joey for his performance last year, but his trajectory and he has shown the FO he keeps getting better.

Sometimes players of old get glorified and players of new get dissed a bit......it's the way it is but I think if you really delve into the metrics you'll see that Joey is worthy of being paid in the top ten right now. He's not the Janes Harrison or the Polly or the Revis at his position currently but he shouldn't have to be to be paid amongst the top 10 when the metrics say he is already there

So as Rodney said......let's just all get along =)

I do have 1 question for you......what do you think Hoey should getbpaid per year for say 4 years ? What would the avg be?

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

Well i see some signs or an olive brach so I'll do the same and I apologize for being a dick at times.

That said =) I will clarify some things. I brought up earlier. The Tomlin thing pertained to one concept and one only and that was his penchant for splash plays and as much as they are important God we've had a very expensive defense that's underachieving while simultaneously getting a lot of turnovers in many years under him and so I was questioning the importance of splash plays in Joey because after all if we have done so well with turnovers as a team and underachieving as a defense maybe the splash plays with Joey aren't as important as we think.

In regard to Mr. Biden, you jousted me for being a new member. Just making a point that longevity in an organization doesn't necessarily equate to excellence. So what I'm new

Now let's get on to your recent post....

"Polamalu, Casey Hampton, Aaron Smith, Darelle Revis, James Harrison, or even Ike Taylor"

Why do you keep brining up Polly as a comparison? The dude is an all time great.....it's just not a sensible comparison. To be paid within arms reach of the best you shouldn't have to be the best of your era at your position.

Revis......another HOF......don't think that's sensible because frankly if you are saying he only deserves to be paid amongst say the top ten cbs if he is the best cb in the league and a future hofer........so he can be paid as say the 7th best corner in the league if he's the very best one? Not an apples to apples situation

Now let's down to James, Aaron, Casey, and Ike.

You are contradicting yourself with throwing Snack in there.......he was the epitome of "glue" without the game changing plays. Under your basis for getting paid, Casey didn't deserve top pay at his position because after all where were all the game changing plays there. He did the things that didn't show up on the stat sheets that people are obsessed over......but I would say like Joey he does change the trajectory of the game like Snack did.

As far as James (my 2nd favorite Steeler ever -Polly being number 1) for that say 5 year stretch he was the best OLB and frankly should be in the HOF for his peak performance years. He's not Polly or Revis but man he was the face of that D for a while so no I don't think comparing him to.James is relative either when considering whether he should get paid in the top 10. James was the best.......Joey isn't but the argument isn't whether he should get paid the most now is it? You are taking guys thatbwere one or two at their position and then saying Joey shouldn't get top 10 money because what he's not 1 or 2 at his position? Not apples to apples

Now let's get down to Aaron (another glue guy for the Steelers) and a great player but not exactly a splash guy either like James or Polly either . If you bring up Snack and Aaron as comparisons for Joey being worthy of top ten pay but constantly bring up splash plays as one of your main reasons why you wouldn't pay him then why bring Snack and Aaron into.the argument?.

Over 13 years Aaron had 7 forced fumbles, 9 fumble recoveries, and 44 sacks. Yes his role was to eat up blockers for James and Joey and stunt blitzes I get it but that's what I'm saying about Joey. He does all of those nuanced things on the field at an elite level outside of INTs, and pass defenses. Qbs aren't throwing to him because he's not giving separation. When they do throw his way their success rate stinks. Have you ever thought that one of the reasons Watt, Herbig, or Hightsmith get sacks is influenced by what Joey prevents just like how Aaron or Snack helped James or Joey? Joey's metrics are there

As far as Ike another outstanding player it took him until his 3rd year to become a starter. I know he was a fourth rounder and a project so to be expected but just think how long it took Ike to become really good. Joey's ceiling is higher than Ikes and that's the point. You aren't just paying Joey for his performance last year, but his trajectory and he has shown the FO he keeps getting better.

Sometimes players of old get glorified and players of new get dissed a bit......it's the way it is but I think if you really delve into the metrics you'll see that Joey is worthy of being paid in the top ten right now. He's not the Janes Harrison or the Polly or the Revis at his position currently but he shouldn't have to be to be paid amongst the top 10 when the metrics say he is already there

So as Rodney said......let's just all get along =)

I do have 1 question for you......what do you think Hoey should getbpaid per year for say 4 years ? What would the avg be?

I’d advocate JPJ getting up to $20-23 million, saving 4-7 from say around 27-30 million, that helps get another player. You can only pay the crap out of so many guys on defense. The reason we have cap space is unlike Porter we’ve had a lot of draft picks not work out, most of all Pickett. If that changes we go back to cap problems like when we drafted well and will need that money

I’ll respond to what you said about Snack, he’s a classic example of a guy who made the defense play differently against him because of what he does, thus being a game changer, I don’t see that in Porter yet. I’d have backed up the money truck for Snack for that reason.

I don’t see him making the impact Ike Taylor did either

I brought up you being a new member when you wrongly suggested im subscribed to Tomlins defensive approach, as anyone can tell you here that’s just not right, or just look up my posts. You were dead wrong there and you get what you get.

You make good points about Porter, he’s a key player here

Olvie branch given, olive branch accepted

 

[Polambertberger]

Maybe I was a tad high in saying he should get 28 to 29 a year. I didn't realize there was that much of a drop-off in annual pay after McDuffie, Sauce and Stingley which are all at 30 mil plus. I do not think he should get those numbers. So the question is how much? Part of.the problem in trying to quantify the annual number for Joey is some of the guys, even I think he's below make a number around your stated number but those contracts are older and as you know every year the new contracts reset things to the upside. So really let's just say the way you are at a 20 to 23 number and I think a reasonable number with where others are (and taking into consideration some of their contracts are older) I'd say his range is more like 24 to 27. His metrics outside INTs and pass defenses are actually elite but he hasn't gotten the recognition of even pro bowl let alone All Pro where the top guys are. He's not a head case, keeps himself out of trouble and he's the only home grown young corner we have (which is leverage for him). Take that all into consideration I'd be surprised if he signs for less than 25 a year. And if they gave a back up edge player 24, and DK 30, how's he gonna accept 20 to 23 being our number one corner playing like a first round pick getting 2nd round slot money right now? He's already outperformed his contract terms wildly.

You and I are off about 4 to 5 mil a year.

 

[Confluence]

You and I are off about 4 to 5 mil a year.

That's about how much Herbig was overpayed, imo.

JPJ was and still is the higher priority and should have been settled first.

 

[Polambertberger]

I’d advocate JPJ getting up to $20-23 million, saving 4-7 from say around 27-30 million, that helps get another player. You can only pay the crap out of so many guys on defense. The reason we have cap space is unlike Porter we’ve had a lot of draft picks not work out, most of all Pickett. If that changes we go back to cap problems like when we drafted well and will need that money

I’ll respond to what you said about Snack, he’s a classic example of a guy who made the defense play differently against him because of what he does, thus being a game changer, I don’t see that in Porter yet. I’d have backed up the money truck for Snack for that reason.

I don’t see him making the impact Ike Taylor did either

I brought up you being a new member when you wrongly suggested im subscribed to Tomlins defensive approach, as anyone can tell you here that’s just not right, or just look up my posts. You were dead wrong there and you get what you get.

You make good points about Porter, he’s a key player here

Olvie branch given, olive branch accepted

By the way did you know that Ike has been Joey's mentor and he wears 24 because of Ike? They have very similar profiles as players actually and Joey is ahead of Ike at this point in his career.....I realize a lot of that has to do with where Ike played and Joey playing in the big ten but still, I think you are underestimating Joey vs Ike. Joey I think will be a better player in the end. He's just way ahead of Ike in his curve at the same age

 

[Polambertberger]

Im.gonna STFU after this i.promise I just can't get over

When targeted, QBs have the 3rd worst QB rating against Joey out of all CBs in the league

Based on catch rate allowed (which looks at expected catch rate vs actual catch rate based on route run against him) he's number one in the NFL.

He hasn't allowed a coverage TD in 1,460 consecutive snaps and running. 1 over his entire 3 year career. That's astounding!

I'm gonna guess Joey signs for around 27 million a year.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

By the way did you know that Ike has been Joey's mentor and he wears 24 because of Ike? They have very similar profiles as players actually and Joey is ahead of Ike at this point in his career.....I realize a lot of that has to do with where Ike played and Joey playing in the big ten but still, I think you are underestimating Joey vs Ike. Joey I think will be a better player in the end. He's just way ahead of Ike in his curve at the same age

Yes Porter could end up being way better for way longer than Ike. Ike was one of the best CBs we’ve had since Woodson. I don’t recall Ike ever being one of the highest paid CBs tho

I think you’re right the number will be around 27 million a year. When push comes to shove Omar has the franchise tag to play. I highly doubt Rooney lets him walk or green lights a trade and I doubt Porter goes Levian Bell on them

 

[Polambertberger]

Are we becoming friends AV? Lol

BTW here are my top 3 favorite Steelers all time

1) Polly
2) James
3) Lloyd

 

[Drink IRON City]

Yeah, I've watched him every year. Last year, he was one of their top 3 defenders along with Heyward and Highsmith. Statistically, he compares to many of the top 10 CBs in the league (in terms of INTs, PDs, and penalties). Passer rating against and TDs allowed are also at an elite level.

However, he's not a top 3 CB so I'm not giving him $30+ million. If it's $27-28 million, whatever. If he's asking for $25 million, it should've been done yesterday.

I’m pretty sure he isn’t asking for $25 mil.

You might be able to get him in that $27-$28 mil range, but the guaranteed money will have to be very high.

Along with the huge guaranteed $$ching$$$, I’d sure try to work in a 5th year option.

Money, it’s all about the money and guaranteed could be a tool to use as well.

The Dad is a problem as well, just for the record.



Salute the nation

 

[stillwright]

I’m pretty sure he isn’t asking for $25 mil.

You might be able to get him in that $27-$28 mil range, but the guaranteed money will have to be very high.

Along with the huge guaranteed $$ching$$$, I’d sure try to work in a 5th year option.

Money, it’s all about the money and guaranteed could be a tool to use as well.

The Dad is a problem as well, just for the record.



Salute the nation

Yep yep. I think Porter comes to the table or has asking for $30 mill area. I wonder where Herbig's starting number was for them to agree to $25 million per.

 

[diver]

That's about how much Herbig was overpayed, imo.

JPJ was and still is the higher priority and should have been settled first.

I wonder if defensive players today are pretty much all overpaid. What I mean is with the rules or the way they enforce or interpret the rules limits the impact to some degree. Edge rushers can be held with impunity now...actually that's been going on since Harrison, and no call. How many sacks would there be if they actually called holding? I understand what Avoid Lloyd is saying, but perhaps for different reasons. I wonder if any corner today is worth $30 million, not because they aren't good players, but because the rules so favor the passing game maybe it would be wise to put money elsewhere.

As I type that I remember what Seattle did last year, so maybe I'm way off here. Idk.

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

Are we becoming friends AV? Lol

BTW here are my top 3 favorite Steelers all time

1) Polly
2) James
3) Lloyd

It appears so, you know your sh*t when it comes to the team and it’s history no doubt, welcome to board

I loved Lloyd’s physicality and intimidation factor, I loved the Avoid Lloyd sign that hung in 3 Rivers, it epitomizes everything I love about the team, nasty intimidating defense, I look at the way the Titans mauled us in the playoffs and want us to be like that with a better offense to go along with it. Little Peezy would help with that long term

 

[Avoid_Lloyd]

I wonder if defensive players today are pretty much all overpaid. What I mean is with the rules or the way they enforce or interpret the rules limits the impact to some degree. Edge rushers can be held with impunity now...actually that's been going on since Harrison, and no call. How many sacks would there be if they actually called holding? I understand what Avoid Lloyd is saying, but perhaps for different reasons. I wonder if any corner today is worth $30 million, not because they aren't good players, but because the rules so favor the passing game maybe it would be wise to put money elsewhere.

As I type that I remember what Seattle did last year, so maybe I'm way off here. Idk.

I think the trend in the league is you pay a CB1 and you pay 1 really good edge rusher and the rest of the defense you try to save money when you can and defer to offense a bit

I think we overpaid for Watt at his age, are overpaying for 2 more edge rushers, and I don’t think JPJ is worth 30 million a year, 23 million would be perfect for a rising star but not a superstar yet

 

[Polambertberger]

It appears so, you know your sh*t when it comes to the team and it’s history no doubt, welcome to board

I loved Lloyd’s physicality and intimidation factor, I loved the Avoid Lloyd sign that hung in 3 Rivers, it epitomizes everything I love about the team, nasty intimidating defense, I look at the way the Titans mauled us in the playoffs and want us to be like that with a better offense to go along with it. Little Peezy would help with that long term

Ah man BFFs!!!

People.talk.about leadership a lot in regard to.the lockeroom and I think that's overrated .....that's what the F-ing coaches are for......to evoke discipline aside from.the fact that if you don't have it within you to be the best it ain't happening anyway.

That said instead of using the Word leadership let's look at that word mentality........

Think about Peazy and his rants
Think about Lloyd
Think about Lambert
Think about Mr James .....oh my

I really like Watt and he can get intense on the field but he's a pretty boy from Wisconsin. Cam was brought up in an NFL household. He ain't a bad *** either. Joey..........same thing. They have no star who is a down and dirty nasty mother Fer

They don't have that guy on the edge .......that guy who is a bit off.......that guy if he wasn't playing football would probably be in jail lol

That's the guy they need

They need some.nasty