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Chrysler/ Fiat CEO: "Don't buy my car"

Ron Burgundy

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JupiterBnG

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EVs make a ton of sense from an energy perspective. Limited range is an albatross around their figurative necks, however. But the biggest problem is the failure to invest in infrastructure to drive adoption. This is no different than hydrogen fuel cells - from a long-term cost and emissions perspective, ditching gas is the way to go, but it's the chicken and egg problem in reverse - without the necessary infrastructure, no one will buy the cars, and with no one buying the cars, there's no investment in the infrastructure. If we want people to buy into the EV paradigm, then someone needs to pony up and put a multi-car charging station on every block. When people aren't afraid of being stranded because they've run their battery out because wherever they go they can plug in, people will flock to it.
 

Ron Burgundy

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EV's are suitable for some places (cities) but not for all parts of the country. The people who run our country are largely east coasters and west coasters and don't understand that.
 

JupiterBnG

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EV's are suitable for some places (cities) but not for all parts of the country. The people who run our country are largely east coasters and west coasters and don't understand that.

Absolutely, but you also have to consider that the majority of the national population are in those dense areas on the coasts. Clearly there has to be an alternative for the wide-open spaces in the middle of the country where EVs don't make sense, but I'm not saying eliminate gas altogether. If you can get the city folk to adopt EVs, there's a glut of gas, and gas gets cheaper for those that have to rely on it.

Of course, that's in a perfect world, where everyone acts in ways that promote maximal efficiency, and no one is driven by corporate greed.
 

ark steel

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I'd love to have a Tesla or one of those Ford Fusion Hybrids. My commute is 15 minutes and easily done without interstate travel. I could drive a golf cart if it were street legal.

Due to the short commute, I wouldnt have to worry, really, about being stranded. However, also due to my short commute, it would take me years to recover the cost of a new car even considering that I drive a gas guzzling SUV. Aint got no payments on the gas guzzler.
 

xjx

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Electrics take much too long to recharge. City vehicle, short trips only.
 

xjx

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Sergio made out big time with Obama pork u us package. He took the money and started importing fiats. With the rest of the money he is building get jeeps in Italy for export to america.

Why isn't the uaw screaming about this? They are so ******* dumb the would vote for Obama again.

Stimulus my ***.
 

xjx

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Sergio made out big time with Obama porkulus package. He took the money and started importing fiats. With the rest of the money he is building jeeps in Italy for export to america.

Why isn't the uaw screaming about this? They are so ******* dumb they would vote for Obama again.

Stimulus my ***.
 

Ron Burgundy

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Clearly there has to be an alternative for the wide-open spaces in the middle of the country where EVs don't make sense, but I'm not saying eliminate gas altogether. If you can get the city folk to adopt EVs, there's a glut of gas, and gas gets cheaper for those that have to rely on it.
Except that the people on your side running the country don't believe that. Also think about who the people in the "wide-open spaces" vote for. It ain't Democrats, so for Bomma & Co. anything that hurts flyover country and urban Liberals like is a winning deal.
 
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Steelerfan

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EVs make a ton of sense from an energy perspective. Limited range is an albatross around their figurative necks, however. But the biggest problem is the failure to invest in infrastructure to drive adoption. This is no different than hydrogen fuel cells - from a long-term cost and emissions perspective, ditching gas is the way to go, but it's the chicken and egg problem in reverse - without the necessary infrastructure, no one will buy the cars, and with no one buying the cars, there's no investment in the infrastructure. If we want people to buy into the EV paradigm, then someone needs to pony up and put a multi-car charging station on every block. When people aren't afraid of being stranded because they've run their battery out because wherever they go they can plug in, people will flock to it.

I'm sure there are shovel-ready jobs to build the infrastructure. Barry says so.
 

JupiterBnG

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Electrics take much too long to recharge. City vehicle, short trips only.

A friend who has a Nissan Leaf said that on a 240V charger, he can make a restroom stop and buy something at the convenience store (about 15-20 minutes) and get about a 70% charge, enough to go another 60 miles or so on the highway.

Except that the people on your side running the country don't believe that. Also think about who the people in the "wide-open spaces" vote for. It ain't Democrats, so for Bomma & Co. anything that hurts flyover country and urban Liberals like is a winning deal.

What exactly do you think my "side" is? Making sensible long-term energy choices isn't a Democrat or Republican issue. My interest in it isn't driven by partisan politics.
 

CharlesDavenport

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Yeah, and people wonder why capitalism doesn't seem to work. Only in some ****** up, contorted, abused form of capitalism would a car maker produce something that costs more that it sells for.
 

CharlesDavenport

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Clearly there has to be an alternative for the wide-open spaces in the middle of the country where EVs don't make sense.
Why does there have to be an alternative for you, and what is so clear about that need?
 
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hamster

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Where is the electricity going to come from to charge the EV batteries?
 

JupiterBnG

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Why does there have to be an alternative for you, and what is so clear about that need?

What's wrong with having choices? No one is saying it has to be one or the other. My point is simply that they (the government, car manufacturers, the Illuminati, whoever you consider "them" to be) can't expect to drive adoption of EVs, which have benefit and appeal for a certain segment of the population, if they don't invest in the support infrastructure. But having more of a choice means those that can leverage the advantage of an EV (those living in dense urban areas) are more inclined to buy them, and the resulting decrease in demand for gasoline should drive prices down for those that want to keep driving their gas-powered cars.

Where is the electricity going to come from to charge the EV batteries?

From power plants, where the relative amount of energy is substantially cheaper to produce on an MPG-equivalent basis than using gasoline.
 

Vader

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I have no problem with companies making EVs. I have issues with the feds picking and choosing winners and losers in a free market. They should stay out of it. Right now the president has sunk hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars in failed solar companies, failed EV companies and failed alternative fuel companies. It isn't just Solyndra. It's companies like Bright Source, LSP Energy, Energy Conservation Devices, Sun Power, Abound Solar, Evergreen Solar, and Ecotality. All failures with BILLLIONS of tax payer money gone down the drain.
 

JupiterBnG

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I have no problem with companies making EVs. I have issues with the feds picking and choosing winners and losers in a free market. They should stay out of it.

I agree with you 100%.

Right now the president has sunk hundreds of BILLIONS of dollars in failed solar companies, failed EV companies and failed alternative fuel companies. It isn't just Solyndra. It's companies like Bright Source, LSP Energy, Energy Conservation Devices, Sun Power, Abound Solar, Evergreen Solar, and Ecotality. All failures with BILLLIONS of tax payer money gone down the drain.

Again, I agree. Government needs to get out of the way, and let the free market work, and let innovators innovate. The mistake is that government is trying to BUY a solution that the market is not ready to accept. If they want to stimulate acceptance, they don't need to pour money into those companies, they need to invest that money in infrastructure that promotes those market choices. Instead of stimulus to corporations to make products no one wants, the stimulus (if there's going to be a stimulus at all) needs to be in the form of a rebate or some kind of subsidy to consumers to make them WANT the product. Then, when there's a demand, some manufacturer will appear with supply to meet that demand. In reality, though, it should be the manufacturer's putting this infrastructure in place, since it's their business model at risk of failing because of the lack. If someone makes an electric car and says, "Charging it is the buyer's problem," they're not going to sell many cars. Tesla has a pretty good model, with charging stations spaced strategically around areas where they sell cars (where owners can charge their cars for FREE, mind you, because that's how cheap it is, that the company can say "we'll pay for your car's energy forever"). You might be lucky to get a full tank of gas from the dealer when you buy a brand new car these days. Where government comes in is getting the manufacturers to work together on standards, so you don't have have a Tesla charging station and a Nissan charging station and a Chevy charging station...

Think of it this way: early cars were powered by coal and steam (e.g., the Stanley Steamer). Those cars had become the de facto standard, we'd all be pulling into coal and water stations instead of gas stations. If that technology had become entrenched like gasoline is today, even if someone introduced a gasoline engine, people would say, "It's great that it's better than the car I have now, but where will I get gasoline for it? There are no refineries, and no fuel transportation infrastructure for gasoline (it's all coal), and no point of sale locations for end users. I'll just stick with my coal, thanks." That is the obstacle that arguably better technology has to overcome, whether it's solar power, or EVs, or hydrogen fuel cells. If the government wants to foster those technologies, the answer isn't for them to invest in the technology (that's what entrepreneurs are for), but to invest in infrastructure that enables and creates demand for those technologies (and at the same time, it can't be so highly specific to that technology that if the technology doesn't pan out we're not stuck with a multi-billion-dollar investment in useless charging kiosks). In this case, there IS a market for EVs, but the infrastructure to support that market is under-developed. If the government wants people to buy EVs, it shouldn't fund EV manufacturers, it should fund public bonds to develop EV support infrastructure on a local/regional level where it makes sense to do so.
 

CharlesDavenport

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What's wrong with having choices? No one is saying it has to be one or the other. My point is simply that they (the government, car manufacturers, the Illuminati, whoever you consider "them" to be) can't expect to drive adoption of EVs, which have benefit and appeal for a certain segment of the population, if they don't invest in the support infrastructure. But having more of a choice means those that can leverage the advantage of an EV (those living in dense urban areas) are more inclined to buy them, and the resulting decrease in demand for gasoline should drive prices down for those that want to keep driving their gas-powered cars.
There is nothing wrong with choices, but it is not "their" responsibility to provide you with them. "They" are not "investing" in EV infrastructure because it is bad business. I am a little surprised that this administration hasn't ponied up our money to start down this road. Also, you are drawing false conclusions about the price of gas going down as a result of EV adoption. This administration is going to kill off all coal fired plants, leaving only oil/gas fired plants and a few nukes. The demand for electricity in your future state would create a lot of new demand that would likely balance out or even exceed current demand for fossil fuels. I did a quick Google on "well to wheel" efficiency of internal combustion engines vs. EVs and found this page from Tesla - http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

It's almost comical. For the ICE, they start tracking losses from the fuel combustion. For the EV, they start with Electricity from the Grid, magically delivered without any losses from the fuel source.
 

Ron Burgundy

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Point being that if they had to charge a free-market non-govt-subsidized price for electric vehicles, then very very few people would buy them.
 

JupiterBnG

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There is nothing wrong with choices, but it is not "their" responsibility to provide you with them. "They" are not "investing" in EV infrastructure because it is bad business. I am a little surprised that this administration hasn't ponied up our money to start down this road. Also, you are drawing false conclusions about the price of gas going down as a result of EV adoption. This administration is going to kill off all coal fired plants, leaving only oil/gas fired plants and a few nukes. The demand for electricity in your future state would create a lot of new demand that would likely balance out or even exceed current demand for fossil fuels. I did a quick Google on "well to wheel" efficiency of internal combustion engines vs. EVs and found this page from Tesla - http://www.teslamotors.com/goelectric/efficiency

It's almost comical. For the ICE, they start tracking losses from the fuel combustion. For the EV, they start with Electricity from the Grid, magically delivered without any losses from the fuel source.

You're conflating separate issues. Part of the infrastructure that would need to be built out is more power plants, regardless of the fuel source. Old, dirty coal plants should be retired and replaced with more efficient plants - coal among them. Fuel mix diversity is important. I'm not arguing in favor of eliminating coal. In fact, if this were a discussion about the environment, my views would have me loudly denounced as a "denier."

Line losses are already factored into the cost of the electricity, it's not like plugging in your EV suddenly creates magical "losses" that make generating and distributing the electricity so much more expensive. Given that, it's not like you are paying for a dollar's worth of electricity and only getting 30 cents' worth. The inefficiencies of the grid are already built into the equations - they're a known quantity, and it's STILL that much cheaper for a power plant to produce energy and distribute it with efficiency losses than it is for you to burn your tank of gas. There are inefficiencies in all the processes that occur between the oil being pumped out of the ground to the time it's pumped into your tank, the difference being that the EV motor is highly efficient at converting the stored energy (batteries) into motion, whereas gas motors are still incredibly wasteful.
 

JupiterBnG

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Point being that if they had to charge a free-market non-govt-subsidized price for electric vehicles, then very very few people would buy them.

I don't know about that... I see plenty of Teslas on the road, and it's not like they're all being driven by multi-millionaire NBA stars. $90K is tough to call a frivolous expenditure.
 

Vader

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I don't know about that... I see plenty of Teslas on the road, and it's not like they're all being driven by multi-millionaire NBA stars. $90K is tough to call a frivolous expenditure.

The $90K isn't exactly accurate in all cases. Many states give tax rebates, property tax reductions or exemptions, and sales tax exemptions worth thousands of dollars more. Some states also offer perks such as exemption from annual inspection requirements and use of HOV lanes. So it isn't a level playing field. Hell Caliphonia gave Tesla a $10 million grant and has strict guideline on percentage of EV to be sold by 2025. So not only do they bowie them with cash but they mandate that 1.5 million of them be sold. So they have a huge advantage over non-EV.

Take away all those advantages and they'd fall on their face. The market should dictate these things not the federal government nor the state. And people wonder why the economy sucks and companies are leaving democratic states for the South and mid west.
 
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