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Grant

Yinzerlyn

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Anyone watch this miniseries on the History Channel? We finished it last night and it was superb. Learned a lot about Grant I never knew (thanks to my middle, HS, and college years being spent in the Deep South where they changed history books. (found that out last night in the doc too). I’m not a big LeoDiCaprio fan, but he produced this and I’m impressed.
 
I want to watch it, but it's hard to convince my wife to take the plunge on some of these topics. I'll have to do some more convincing.
 
I want to watch it, but it's hard to convince my wife to take the plunge on some of these topics. I'll have to do some more convincing.

My only gripe is that towards the last hour of each 2 hour episode, the commercials started coming every 5 minutes. Other than that- it shouldn’t be that difficult a sell. Or you could always watch it by yourself.
 
Starting it tonight. Grant is a great American story. Read his memoirs. Great read.
 
I want to watch it, but it's hard to convince my wife to take the plunge on some of these topics. I'll have to do some more convincing.

Some way, some how, watch it. It was brilliant. There was so much I didn't know about the man. He was buried in history. From his childhood to his deathbed when he finished writing his memoir's the day before he died. A brilliant war strategist. I mean there's is so much I wanna say but I'd be here all damn day. He saved the Union, and if Lincoln's bust wasn't on Mt. Rushmore it would be his.
 
I went to Grant's Farm when I was a kid. I remember walking through his cabin. The giant Budweiser Clydesdale horses lived there too.
 
Read the novel by Chernow. Very interesting and instructive. Definitely want to see the series, planning on doing so soon.

Some very interesting points I learned about Grant in the Chernow novel:

  • He was an amazing horseman. At West Point graduation, he rode his horse through a column lined on both sides by the graduates and made a 5' jump on the horse.
  • Had no desire at all to go to West Point - none.
  • Did not drink nearly as much as is now claimed.
  • Served with Lee during the Mexican wars and saw that Lee not perfect, by any means.
  • In fact, Lee's plan to take the city of "Mexico" (now Mexico City) had several weaknesses Grant saw.
  • Grant had a better plan but not used by the Gen. Winfield Scott.
  • Grant therefore believed he was as good or better a military mind than Lee.
  • Amazing how many of the later commanders for both sides during the Civil War fought as allies in the Mexican-American war: Grant, Lee, Longstreet, Stonewall Jackson, Sherman, McClellan, Burnside, P.T. Beauregard, and Meade.
 
Some way, some how, watch it. It was brilliant. There was so much I didn't know about the man. He was buried in history. From his childhood to his deathbed when he finished writing his memoir's the day before he died.

Yes, a great point!! Grant wrote the memoirs because he just did not have any money, and his incredible novel, which he actually wrote, became a massive money-maker with the help of Mark Twain.

Chernow cited letters and observations from several, including Grant's wife, Julia, who opined that Grant lasted as long as he did despite the cancer because he needed to finish the novel.
 
Grant actually was the first civil rights President...but you don’t learn that in school. That’s addressed in the series. I agree that Grant should be on Rushmore..
 
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Amazing fact. He's Ulysses H Grant. The S was just a typo when he went to west point. Typical government response, You're S Grant now

A lot of civil war history is written by southern apologists. They always spin the south as being noble aristocrats fighting the tyrannical north.
 
Amazing fact. He's Ulysses H Grant. The S was just a typo when he went to west point. Typical government response, You're S Grant now

A lot of civil war history is written by southern apologists. They always spin the south as being noble aristocrats fighting the tyrannical north.
Yes. Grant was a determined drunk who was great at using overwhelming force. Lee was gentleman military genius.
 
Amazing fact. He's Ulysses H Grant. The S was just a typo when he went to west point. Typical government response, You're S Grant now

A lot of civil war history is written by southern apologists. They always spin the south as being noble aristocrats fighting the tyrannical north.

What I learned in school (in GA) was that the Cuvil Wat wasn’t fought over slavery- it was a states’ rights issue. The south wanted a loose confederation of states (hence why they were called the Confederates) and the north wanted a tighter union of states (Union). Slavery was just a back issue. It wasn’t until recently that I learned the truth. In the miniseries, the rewriting of history by southerners is addressed- talked of how they spun it as a states’ rights issue. How messed up is that??
 
What I learned in school (in GA) was that the Cuvil Wat wasn’t fought over slavery- it was a states’ rights issue. The south wanted a loose confederation of states (hence why they were called the Confederates) and the north wanted a tighter union of states (Union). Slavery was just a back issue. It wasn’t until recently that I learned the truth. In the miniseries, the rewriting of history by southerners is addressed- talked of how they spun it as a states’ rights issue. How messed up is that??

So now history is being re-written by leftist and nitwits. If the CW was entirely over slavery then why did Lincoln not free the northern slaves until after the war? Why did he offer to allow the south to keep slave to avoid war? During the war he offered to allow the south to return with their slaves if they just paid their taxes. Texas didn't give up their slaves until a year after the war.

Lincoln on the war: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.."

Remember the south started the war not Lincoln.
 
Yes the South did start the war. And in some places, they think it’s still going on.

Might I add I graduated HS in 1991- so this wasn’t a recently written textbook.
 
Yes the South did start the war. And in some places, they think it’s still going on.

Might I add I graduated HS in 1991- so this wasn’t a recently written textbook.

I graduated in 89' but studied history in college and on the side. The civil war is very complex. I've read books on Lincoln, Grant, Lee ETC. IMHO neither Lee nor Grant was the best leader during the war. Forrest was a genius. He was able to get away from Grant and fooled Streight into surrendering by marching his men around a bluff several times to make it look like he had a lot more men. He wasn't trained in West Point nor anywhere else. He was just a natural military tactician.
 
Yes the South did start the war. And in some places, they think it’s still going on.

Might I add I graduated HS in 1991- so this wasn’t a recently written textbook.

I was called yankee a lot when I first moved down here...haha. Then I realized that everybody still spoke like they did in Huck Finn. Saw confederate flags. I cracked up over the states rights issue nobility excuse. I always ended up getting called damn yankee, which I said yes. The wars over,you lost....Winner&conqueror. My kin also marched across Pennsylvania to join Washington's troops in the dead of winter from Western PA. You're welcome, so **** off.

I always got crickets and head shakes after that. The south does have a lot of great down to earth people just like any other state does and they also have nitwits stuck in the 1860's.
 
I was called yankee a lot when I first moved down here...haha. Then I realized that everybody still spoke like they did in Huck Finn. Saw confederate flags. I cracked up over the states rights issue nobility excuse. I always ended up getting called damn yankee, which I said yes. The wars over,you lost....Winner&conqueror. My kin also marched across Pennsylvania to join Washington's troops in the dead of winter from Western PA. You're welcome, so **** off.

I always got crickets and head shakes after that. The south does have a lot of great down to earth people just like any other state does and they also have nitwits stuck in the 1860's.

You won't get crickets from me. My kin was a captain in Washington's army. My family has been here since 1620. You just didn't run into the right southerner. My father is from NY NY and lived in Scarsdale. If the U.S. were truly united there would be no "You" lost or "You" won.

BTW if you ever go to Bassston in your caaaar you'll get a dialect that dates back further than Huck Fin.
 
After watching Grant, I think I’ll read his memoirs and more about the Civil War. Honestly, the way it was presented to me in school was “Grant was the General of the Union Army. Robert E Lee surrendered to him. Then he was President of the US.” I never knew how much Lincoln influenced him and how trusting and loyal Grant was. He was kinda painted as a villain when we learned about him.
 
After watching Grant, I think I’ll read his memoirs and more about the Civil War. Honestly, the way it was presented to me in school was “Grant was the General of the Union Army. Robert E Lee surrendered to him. Then he was President of the US.” I never knew how much Lincoln influenced him and how trusting and loyal Grant was. He was kinda painted as a villain when we learned about him.

I recommend The Man Who Saved The Union by H.W. Brands. A great read.
 
I'm old. I was initially taught that the Civil War was over slavery, then later that it was about the states' rights to secede from the Union (which was largely over slavery) and was only about slavery after Lincoln's Emancipation Proclamation in 1863. Now I'm not sure what to believe. I'll ask Ron Jr. who has bachelors and masters degrees in history.
 
So now history is being re-written by leftist and nitwits. If the CW was entirely over slavery then why did Lincoln not free the northern slaves until after the war? Why did he offer to allow the south to keep slave to avoid war? During the war he offered to allow the south to return with their slaves if they just paid their taxes. Texas didn't give up their slaves until a year after the war.

Lincoln on the war: "My paramount object in this struggle is to save the Union, and is not either to save or to destroy slavery. If I could save the Union without freeing any slave, I would do it; and if I could save it by freeing all the slaves, I would do it; and if I could do it by freeing some and leaving others alone, I would also do that.."

Remember the south started the war not Lincoln.

Slavery was the main issue. Not for the poor dirt farm kid fighting on either side as I'm sure that was the last thing on their minds. Those are my people, the Scots-Irish that largely made up the Southern army. But the slave owners, the rich, the ones pulling the strings, it was all about slavery. Which makes it so bad, imo. Those aristocrat ******** sending out poor, uneducated kids to die so they could continue their lifestyle, a lifestyle that none of those kids fighting would ever benefit from. That happens in some degree or another in every war, but it seems much more obvious in the Civil War.
 
Slavery was the main issue. Not for the poor dirt farm kid fighting on either side as I'm sure that was the last thing on their minds. Those are my people, the Scots-Irish that largely made up the Southern army. But the slave owners, the rich, the ones pulling the strings, it was all about slavery. Which makes it so bad, imo. Those aristocrat ******** sending out poor, uneducated kids to die so they could continue their lifestyle, a lifestyle that none of those kids fighting would ever benefit from. That happens in some degree or another in every war, but it seems much more obvious in the Civil War.

There was more to it than that. Like most wars (especially civil wars) there are usually more issues than just one. Again if it were just about slavery then why didn't the south not take the offer Lincoln made to let them keep their slaves? So it wasn't all about slavery.
 
Watched the first two episodes last night. It was pretty good.
 
There was more to it than that. Like most wars (especially civil wars) there are usually more issues than just one. Again if it were just about slavery then why didn't the south not take the offer Lincoln made to let them keep their slaves? So it wasn't all about slavery.

I don't think it was just about slavery, just that it was the main issue. I think other things could have been worked out. And they were and have been. Slavery was the straw that broke the camels back.
 
I have read probably 25 books about the Civil War, and what I think happened is that at the beginning of the war, Lincoln knew he had to save the Union. He campaigned on that premise, spoke about the fact that our great experiment (just 85 years old at the start of the Civil War) was going to be judged by what happened. He had to save the Union and was never going to allow the South to break apart the Union.

Most don't know this, but the number of deaths due to enemy fire between the start of the Civil War on April 12, 1861 and May 23, 1861 was ... zero. The casualty count in total as of May 23, 1861 was one, a private named Daniel Hough, who died at Fort Sumter when a Union cannon misfired.

Slavery was of course the issue dividing the states, and more importantly for the combatants, the spread of slavery into the massive territory the United States acquired from the Mexican-American war. Most of that territory was south of the imaginary line crafted by the Missouri compromise (Texas, Arkansas, New Mexico territory that included what was later Arizona, Utah territory that included what was later Nevada).

The Southern states focused in significant part on the argument that the Federal government could not change their internal policies on slavery, and indeed that was an argument rooted in fact until adoption of the 13th, 14th and 15th amendments in 1864. So the Southern states were telling Northern states that they could not govern the Southern states or tell them how to run their affairs; the Northern states insisted that slavery was immoral and repugnant to the principles underlying the nation and that the Union needed to be maintained.

The war progresses, and by Shiloh in April of 1862, the carnage was becoming more and more clear. Casualties were basically announced by posting names in a public square. The names wound up requiring lists that became 2 pages, then 3, then 5, then 10.

By the middle of 1862, Lincoln knew that the death toll was simply too much to be justified to "preserve the Union." He struggled with the fact that he was the one who could end the deaths, right now, by simply agreeing to the secession, but he could not do so and preserve the Union. He decided that the war had to be about more than the Union, or state's rights, or a democratic form of government. On July 22, 1862, Lincoln told his cabinet that he was going to issue the proclamation but that he wanted to wait for a considerable Union victor before doing so.

He published the Emancipation Proclamation in September of 1862, after the dreadful battle at Antietam, where 22,700 Americans wound up dead, wounded or missing. The Emancipation Proclamation freed slaves ... only in the rebelling states but NOT in slave-holding Union states that included Kentucky, Missouri, Delaware, Maryland and the District of Columbia itself.

Lincoln tied the huge, overwhelming cost in lives and injuries to the concept of freedom, ending slavery, since having hundreds of thousands die simply to preserve a form of government just did not make sense any more. That's my take and one shared by several of Lincoln's cabinet, including Stanton.
 
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