Modern 34 defense discussion

[SteelerSask2]

I read a lot of two DL gripes on here and would like to have schematic discussion here. I coach JV, I let the coaches coach the coordinators are better than me at what they do. The DC picked off Troy Aikman in a spring inter squad game which is pretty unique where we live. Lol
So I guess people say they want three DL. Which I guess would amount to Black at Nose, Heyward, and the Oregon kid Harmon. Then what do you do with your linebacker deployment?
In essence you can call it what you want. The Steelers play base 4-2-5. They play gap cancel and techs like everyone else. If they want to stop run they put in larger nose. Even the terminology. Lloyd was an OLB and they might even put that on the TV broadcast graphic for Watt and Highsmith but those guys are Edges.
Too me modern defense is all situational based. You have interchangeable parts that fit better in certain down and distances.
Back in the day the Steelers had advantages. They took undersized 4/3 ends and made them into OLB and plugged a giant in the middle flanked by two undersized Interior DL. Football just usnt like that anymore. The true nose and the fullback are very situational players and the fullback has to be a good sp. Teamer.
Thoughts? I know many many of you have greater schematic knowledge then a JV Head Coach who doesn't call his own offense or defense.

 

[Coryea]

My issue with us using 2 DL isn't that I think we should never ever run it, there's obviously a time and place for that.
I just simplify it like this, Watt and Highsmith are around 250lbs, you have Cam and who ever the other DL is, around 300lbs.
Then you take the opponents Oline, Tackles are 300-320, OG's are 300-330 depending on blocking schemes, Center 300 roughly. So you have 5 300lb+ guys going against 2 300lbs guys and a couple 250lb guys, that's a huge mis-match, yeah that's really dumbing it down, but when you're playing a running team like Balt, or Philly, or like the Browns in the 2021 playoff game. Those are all great running teams, with top of the league Olines, you're going to struggle big time stopping their running game with only 2 DL. That's my issue with it, we use it way to much when we shouldn't use it, goal line/short yardage, we should never use it, yet I've seen it happen alot. The Browns playoff game, we were in that 2DL set on their 1st 4 offensive TD's. If we don't want a hampton type NT fine, but use 3 DE's on the line, just get some more size, get rid of a damn ILB, 3-3-5, two ILB's allows Tomlin to use one of them to cover WR's and that rarely works.

 

[Drink IRON City]

I’m no expert either but also know enough to agree that today’s D is so m uh more specialized than ever before.

This 2DL set keeps everything in front of the D and is a very conservative way to hold down scoring. It also keeps a LB to help cover over the middle but it also has that big gap if the middle is flooded (which is an easy thing to do).

Short yardage / goal line / dominant running teams are all foes of the 2DL and I feel the 3/4 should be enacted more than it is.

Either one takes on the fly adjustments and that right there seems to be our short comings. To long to adjust if there even is an adjustment made.

GREAT 1st two posts, thank you gentlemen!!!





Salute the nation

 

[SteelerSask2]

Point one. Are they really playing 2 DL or they really playing a 40 front? Cause TJ watt and Alex Highsmith are not Will and Sam LBs.
Point two. If you play the traditional idea of a 34 they are going to chess move you out of it with multiple receivers on first down to take you out of what you want to do.

 

[Coryea]

Point one. Are they really playing 2 DL or they really playing a 40 front? Cause TJ watt and Alex Highsmith are not Will and Sam LBs. Watt probably drops in coverage a few times a game and Highsmith less.
Point two. If you play the traditional idea of a 34 they are going to chess move you out of it with multiple receivers on first down to take you out of what you want to do.

If you're playing a strong running team, then I'd welcome them trying to move me out of it by going with multiple WR's and away from their strength. I'm not going the traditional 3-4, I'm going with a 3-3-5

 

[SteelerSask2]

If you're playing a strong running team, then I'd welcome them trying to move me out of it by going with multiple WR's and away from their strength. I'm not going the traditional 3-4, I'm going with a 3-3-5

There are not many NFL teams that are not pass first. You have to play to your division. Ravens and Bengals both pass really really well. You tea bag the Browns regardless.
Who of the front seven is out on your 3-3-5?

 

[Coryea]

There are not many NFL teams that are not pass first. You have to play to your division. Ravens and Bengals both pass really really well. You tea bag the Browns regardless.
Who of the front seven is out on your 3-3-5?

Ravens pass well, but that's all set up by their running game, now Cincy I'd be more willing to use that 2-4-5 a little more because they are throw, throw, throw.
Payton Wilson would be my guy out.

 

[SteelerSask2]

Ravens pass well, but that's all set up by their running game, now Cincy I'd be more willing to use that 2-4-5 a little more because they are throw, throw, throw.
Payton Wilson would be my guy out.

Fair. I think what they do is used size and tech alignment to achieve pretty similar things. I also think the rules have dictated smaller faster players. If your Mac can end a crosser.........that limits what they can do.

 

[Coryea]

Fair. I think what they do is used size and tech alignment to achieve pretty similar things. I also think the rules have dictated smaller faster players. If your Mac can end a crosser.........that limits what they can do.

Agreed, and yeah when you face the smaller, quicker teams then the 2DL can work, but when you're in short yardage, obvious run downs, or vs very good running teams, you're going to get killed in that 2DL set, like we saw vs Philly and Baltimore last year, more like embarrassed.

 

[bermudasteel]

I read a lot of two DL gripes on here and would like to have schematic discussion here. I coach JV, I let the coaches coach the coordinators are better than me at what they do. The DC picked off Troy Aikman in a spring inter squad game which is pretty unique where we live. Lol
So I guess people say they want three DL. Which I guess would amount to Black at Nose, Heyward, and the Oregon kid Harmon. Then what do you do with your linebacker deployment?
In essence you can call it what you want. The Steelers play base 4-2-5. They play gap cancel and techs like everyone else. If they want to stop run they put in larger nose. Even the terminology. Lloyd was an OLB and they might even put that on the TV broadcast graphic for Watt and Highsmith but those guys are Edges.
Too me modern defense is all situational based. You have interchangeable parts that fit better in certain down and distances.
Back in the day the Steelers had advantages. They took undersized 4/3 ends and made them into OLB and plugged a giant in the middle flanked by two undersized Interior DL. Football just usnt like that anymore. The true nose and the fullback are very situational players and the fullback has to be a good sp. Teamer.
Thoughts? I know many many of you have greater schematic knowledge then a JV Head Coach who doesn't call his own offense or defense.

Your assessment is spot on.

Decades ago, the 3-4 was a great base defense but the NFL has changed (see my explanation on this elsewhere) and the need for 'bigs' constantly on the field has gone away with the new passing concepts and mobile QBs.

So what is going to suffer? Obviously the run defense. Teams are stretched wide and the middle of the field is preying ground for delayed runs, draws and, again, mobile QBs.

What would Berm deploy? I'm going with a different formation from the nickel - 3-3-5.

That keeps 7, I'm calling SS a big, players on the field and 4 shifty DBs.

Will it work? I haven't the foggiest idea but what's the harm in trying???

 

[bermudasteel]

Ravens pass well, but that's all set up by their running game, now Cincy I'd be more willing to use that 2-4-5 a little more because they are throw, throw, throw.
Payton Wilson would be my guy out.

I like what you're thinking but I wouldn't discount Wilson just yet.

Look at this:

Harmon - Black - Heyward

Watt/Herbig - Queen/Holcomb - Highsmith/Wilson

JPJ - Slay - Ramsey - Elliott - Bishop

I interchange the ILBs based on opposing personnel. Monkey wrench... move TJ inside to blitz and stop the run and put Queen and Wilson in the flats...

 

[SteelerSask2]

Your assessment is spot on.

Decades ago, the 3-4 was a great base defense but the NFL has changed (see my explanation on this elsewhere) and the need for 'bigs' constantly on the field has gone away with the new passing concepts and mobile QBs.

So what is going to suffer? Obviously the run defense. Teams are stretched wide and the middle of the field is preying ground for delayed runs, draws and, again, mobile QBs.

What would Berm deploy? I'm going with a different formation from the nickel - 3-3-5.

That keeps 7, I'm calling SS a big, players on the field and 4 shifty DBs.

Will it work? I haven't the foggiest idea but what's the harm in trying???

I think the biggest difference Id make is playing 6 and 7 up more. Same people but let them guess who's dropping and who's going more.

 

[MT~Forged]

Is there a reason everyone is not using Benton?

 

[Drink IRON City]

I’m no expert either but also know enough to agree that today’s D is so m uh more specialized than ever before.

This 2DL set keeps everything in front of the D and is a very conservative way to hold down scoring. It also keeps a LB to help cover over the middle but it also has that big g

I think the biggest difference Id make is playing 6 and 7 up more. Same people but let them guess who's dropping and who's going more.

Dang straight, we are so predictable, that even a little guess would go a long way.



Salute the nation

 

[Badcat]

Realistically, the Steelers are running a 4-2 defense with athletic OLB as the bookends. Austin is walking a safety close to the box on running situations and the ILBs need to cover more in today's pass happy NFL. This defense makes perfect sense IMO as it defends the majority NFL offense. The issue that I have is the horrible application of it. There are no twists, blitzing is all but removed, no movement of TJ to exploit matchups, having your DBs standing like statues in zone coverage (CLOSE IN ON THE MAN IN YOUR ZONE GOD DAMNIT). It's so frustrating to watch the game plan against Baltimore in the playoffs. That's the type of **** I expect a JV coach to make, not an NFL Head Coach.