Some of you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the 3-4

[Steel Not A Player]

There's alot of guys calling for Hageman and Tuitt in the second round. These are not 2 gap players, as Nix is.

The 3-4 scheme requires a heavy presence over the center. Someone whom the center cannot block one on one. You can have all the Cam Heywards and Stephon Tuitts you want, but if that center doesn't require additional blocking help, the system will fail. If the O Line can block one on one, the system will fail.

The success of the Casey Hampton led D Line came from the fact that on run downs he could choose either gap (on each side of the center) to force the ball carrier. On passing downs, Hampton could drive the center back into the QB's lap, forcing the center to get help from a guard to avoid backing into the throwing lane. The net result of this was more space for the linebackers to roam.

If you take a light, fast ILB like Shazier, then Nix is the ONLY D-Lineman that makes sense in round two. You need a heavy presence in the middle to keep blockers off Shazier and allow him to slice though the line and make plays. Watching his game tape, this is largely Shazier's game. With no heavy presence in the middle, Shazier get's chewed up and run over as he is not a great block shedder.

The 3-4, as we run it, does not work without a fireplug in the middle. It simply doesn't, and you see the dropoff in production without Hampton. I don't give a **** about how teams are spreading out. If the center needs help in the middle that's one less person to block Worlids and Jones outside. Remember, there's only so many offensive linemen and those numbers have to add up. So if the offense is burning extra men protecting the inside of the line, you're more likely to get a free rusher on the outside.

With Shazier on the roster Nix is the ONLY choice if we go DL.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

First post...hmm...Is that you Tomlin?

 

[Steel Not A Player]

First post...hmm...Is that you Tomlin?

No, but I do wear those snazzy shades...

 

[Atlsteelers]

Tuitt & Hageman are suited for 3-4 teams as a 5-technique defensive end. You can't even compare Nix to them because he is a traditional 3-4 nose tackle. Just in case you haven't noticed we have nobody on the roster with any real experience as a DE.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

Tuitt & Hageman are suited for 3-4 teams as a 5-technique defensive end. You can't even compare Nix to them because he is a traditional 3-4 nose tackle.

To clarify: we have NO heavy presence in the middle. None. Adding an end will not fix that problem. We need a NT who can smash the center, and adding an End will not solve that problem.

Just in case you haven't noticed we have nobody on the roster with any real experience as a DE.

Excuse me? Cam Heyward? Played quite well.

We have one really good end. We can draft another developmental end in later rounds. But adding an end will not improve our defense with these linebackers. We need weight and power, not single gap penetration. This is not t he 4-3.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

Heyward played well IMO. I still thinks he needs to take another leap forward this year.

 

[ZACKB]

Tuitt in 2, Ellis in 4? Hageman won't be there when we pick.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

Heyward played well IMO. I still thinks he needs to take another leap forward this year.

Agree.

More progress at his position negates the need to draft another End this high when our NT situation is so dire.

 

[Atlsteelers]

To clarify: we have NO heavy presence in the middle. None. Adding an end will not fix that problem. We need a NT who can smash the center, and adding an End will not solve that problem.



Excuse me? Cam Heyward? Played quite well.

We have one really good end. We can draft another developmental end in later rounds. But adding an end will not improve our defense with these linebackers. We need weight and power, not single gap penetration. This is not t he 4-3.

Sorry I should have clarified outside of Heyward. But you are correct in regards to Tuitt adding the presense in the middle to eat up 2 people to free up Shazier and Timmons to do there thing. I'm scared though that we are going to get gashed on the other side opposite Heyward. At least we have McClendon (Even though he isn't a traditional 3-4 nose) who has at times looked pretty good in the middle.

 

[Atlsteelers]

Tuitt in 2, Ellis in 4? Hageman won't be there when we pick.

I would go for this. Even though it doesn't solve or need for a CB or WR. The only good thing is we are set at CB & WR just for next year. The problem comes after next year.

 

[TMC]

Two things, first, the Phillips version of the 3-4 often runs with single gap DL. The Bullough uses 2-gappers. LeBeau's system has been known to utilize either, as was the case when Von Oelhoffen was the NT. They also drafted Clancy to play NT, and he was more of a one-gap DT. Since we are all in on educating everyone.

Second, Ra'Sheade Hageman has more than enough power and bulk to be a 2-gap NT. He played the 0 and 1 technique at Minnesota. We shaded Hampton plenty and could shade Hageman to ease the reads. He is not a guy that gets blasted off the ball, shading him would allow him to push the center over and close the 2nd gap, especially if they fill the void at the other DE spot with a solid run stopper.

 

[ZACKB]

I would go for this. Even though it doesn't solve or need for a CB or WR. The only good thing is we are set at CB & WR just for next year. The problem comes after next year.

We could even snag a wr or cb in rd 3.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

Sorry I should have clarified outside of Heyward. But you are correct in regards to Tuitt adding the presense in the middle to eat up 2 people to free up Shazier and Timmons to do there thing. I'm scared though that we are going to get gashed on the other side opposite Heyward. At least we have McClendon (Even though he isn't a traditional 3-4 nose) who has at times looked pretty good in the middle.

Tuit is an end. And a one gap end at that. Probably more suited to playing on the strong side of a 4-3.

Take Nix. He's another Hampton. Move McClendon to the opposite end. Now you've got a pretty impressive 3-4 DL. Then speedy inside guys like Timmons and Shazier have the coverage they need flow to the ball. And Jarvis Jones can start showing some of that "get after it" he showed in college because they'll be trying to block him with a RB or TE.

Our secondary will still be leaky, but with some pressure up front we can hide it. Even during our SB runs, we never had great corners. But with pressure on the QB, you can live with out one.

 

[deljzc]

This defense is not the old Cowher 3-4.

Pining for 260 lbs DE's to turn into LB's and 330 lbs NT's doesn't really do anything except get you disappointed. To Tomlin it's speed and position flexibility. Even the OLB we draft now are OLB's (not DE's) and look as suited for inside work as outside.

I suspect future NT's this team drafts will look more like 5-tech DE's.

And maybe it's time to really consider the possibility again that once Lebeau leaves (and it HAS to be soon), we aren't going to be a 3-4 defense at all but much more of a hybrid roving front-7 that could play a lot more 1-gap run responsibilities.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

sure looks like Big Snack

from bleacher

Louis Nix III, DT, Notre Dame

The big defensive tackle nicknamed "Irish Chocolate" had been penciled in as the Steelers' first-round pick for much of the draft evaluation cycle. Then, a poor combine performance revived concerns about his health and explosiveness.

Nevertheless, Nix has rare size at 6'2", 331 pounds. For a Steelers team that desperately missed former nose tackle Casey Hampton in 2013, an anchor like Nix should be a perfect fit.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

Two things, first, the Phillips version of the 3-4 often runs with single gap DL. The Bullough uses 2-gappers. LeBeau's system has been known to utilize either, as was the case when Von Oelhoffen was the NT. They also drafted Clancy to play NT, and he was more of a one-gap DT. Since we are all in on educating everyone.

Second, Ra'Sheade Hageman has more than enough power and bulk to be a 2-gap NT. He played the 0 and 1 technique at Minnesota. We shaded Hampton plenty and could shade Hageman to ease the reads. He is not a guy that gets blasted off the ball, shading him would allow him to push the center over and close the 2nd gap, especially if they fill the void at the other DE spot with a solid run stopper.

NFL.com describes Hageman as "on skates" vs the double team. He's too tall and plays with his pads too high to really be a good 2 gap defender. He's a rangy ex basketballer. Perfect for playing in the NYG's system, but not ours. You'd be trying to convert him into a different kind of player and asking him to play outside his strengths.

Nix is a strike right down the middle. Short, heavy, space eating NT who gives plenty of effort on every play. Won't have great sack numbers, but he'll keep those linebackers clean, and that's what we need. That's what our team does best.

Why up and try to reinvent the wheel when we already know what works?

 

[ZACKB]

Hageman would play DE in our system, not NT. I still like Nix or Tuitt. McClendon moves to DE if we take Nix. I still think the FO likes Steve at NT, so I'm more apt to have us take a WR or DE in rd 2.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

This defense is not the old Cowher 3-4.

Pining for 260 lbs DE's to turn into LB's and 330 lbs NT's doesn't really do anything except get you disappointed. To Tomlin it's speed and position flexibility. Even the OLB we draft now are OLB's (not DE's) and look as suited for inside work as outside.

I suspect future NT's this team drafts will look more like 5-tech DE's.

And maybe it's time to really consider the possibility again that once Lebeau leaves (and it HAS to be soon), we aren't going to be a 3-4 defense at all but much more of a hybrid roving front-7 that could play a lot more 1-gap run responsibilities.

It's all great in theory, but you're ignoring the laws of physics.

Why do you need size up front in a 3-4? Because your linebackers are going to be lighter and faster than those in a 4-3. In the 4-3 it's all about shooting gaps and everyone beating their guy 1 on 1. So 4-3 MLBs tend to be pushing 250. Our guys run closer to 220. The 3-4 is about flow. Creating gaps in the line with big linemen and letting smaller faster guys flow into them like water through a strainer.

Think of what we do as more like having RBs on defense. We have to create holes for our guys to run though, or the game doesn't work. A 220 lb ILB is not going to fight off a 300+lb OG. That defies the laws of physics. He needs a heavy presence up front to create those lanes. Again, you're thinking we can run this defense like a 4-3, but we don't have the size at linebacker to make that work.

Without a 2 gap presence up front, a guy like Shazier is useless on the back end.

sure looks like Big Snack

from bleacher

Louis Nix III, DT, Notre Dame

The big defensive tackle nicknamed "Irish Chocolate" had been penciled in as the Steelers' first-round pick for much of the draft evaluation cycle. Then, a poor combine performance revived concerns about his health and explosiveness.

Nevertheless, Nix has rare size at 6'2", 331 pounds. For a Steelers team that desperately missed former nose tackle Casey Hampton in 2013, an anchor like Nix should be a perfect fit.

THIS.

 

[TMC]

I do not give 2 ***** what NFL.com says. Never have, never will. He played the damn nose at Minnesota.

And, Nix is not a strike. Casey Hampton was one of the strongest players on the Steeler roster. Hampton was 314 pounds and bench pressed 225-34 times. Nix is 330, cut weight to get to 330. He played at ND at 350. THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS. His bench press was 24 reps and it may have been the better part of his workouts. Bad knees.

Pimp this all you want, he is a big risk and could easily balloon back up over 350 once drafted.

 

[Steel Not A Player]

I do not give 2 ***** what NFL.com says. Never have, never will. He played the damn nose at Minnesota.

And, Nix is not a strike. Casey Hampton was one of the strongest players on the Steeler roster. Hampton was 314 pounds and bench pressed 225-34 times. Nix is 330, cut weight to get to 330. He played at ND at 350. THREE HUNDRED AND FIFTY POUNDS. His bench press was 24 reps and it may have been the better part of his workouts. Bad knees.

Pimp this all you want, he is a big risk and could easily balloon back up over 350 once drafted.

I'm not saying he's a sure thing, I'm saying he's the obvious pick given what's available.

And I've whiffed before. I was sure Plax would be a giant bust and do nothing in the NFL. Turns out, he used that size to the utmost advantage despite his lack of straight line speed.

I was sure Scott Shields would be a stud, and a draft steal. Turns out that for all his size and speed, they guy didn't like to hit people.

All I'm saying is that schematically, Nix makes the most sense. Is he the ideal prospect? Of course not. But in terms of what we do, and what we need, he makes more sense than drafting a 6'6" giraffe who's going to get pushed around because he should be playing in a 1 gap defense. Hageman gets our flyweight linebackers killed, and that's the bottom line.

 

[Vader]

Taking Nix makes no sense with the way Tomlin wants to play defense. Tomlin clearly wants to change the defense to better play the pass. Especially up the middle. He wants to get after the QB and cover those short to medium middle passes with the TE and RB. Also Nix is a blubbering fatbody. As I've said repeatedly, he is worthless in 60% of the defensive configurations. Against passing teams like NE and Denver you might as well leave him at home.

Also Nix is NOT Hampton. Hampton had to be doubled team and even then could control the point and come off and make the tackle. Nix can be turned much easier with double teams and isn't dominant one on one. Also he'll never see 330 again. He'll play in the 350+ range. Add to that he's already had knee surgery. I'll pass on Nix.

 

[Wingman]

sure looks like Big Snack

from bleacher

Louis Nix III, DT, Notre Dame

The big defensive tackle nicknamed "Irish Chocolate" had been penciled in as the Steelers' first-round pick for much of the draft evaluation cycle. Then, a poor combine performance revived concerns about his health and explosiveness.

Nevertheless, Nix has rare size at 6'2", 331 pounds. For a Steelers team that desperately missed former nose tackle Casey Hampton in 2013, an anchor like Nix should be a perfect fit.

Well his arms sure look a lot thinner than Hamptons. This guy has some issues with his knees and does not look real powerful up top. Hampton was able to arm tackle most running backs while being blocked. This guy does not seem to have the power to do that. Someone posted on here that nix tossed up the bar 24 times on the bench press, our recent first round linebacker that is too skinny and weak to shed blockers did one better at 25. Fat does not equal power, height and weight numbers do not always translate into a good player. Nix may be the best of a very weak group but the draft picks need to be here for several years. We will also not be fixing every position with one draft so we need to take the best value here, not a need. If there is not a great player like Hampton available we will pick one next year as the recent trend is for us to be drafting early. We may have another one or two seasons of picking early till the team is reloaded.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Most colleges don't use a 3-4 or have their DL play 2 gap. Because of this, the steelers have traditionally drafted DE and swith them to OLB and DT and switch them to DE in the 3-4.

If you are looking for perfect fits for the steeler scheme then you are really limiting your draft board. If there's a guy who plays 2 gap, great, but that doesn't mean you cross off all the guys who are shooting gaps because then you'll have a pretty short draft list.

You have to judge whether they have the ability to 2 gap. You look for guys with strength and awareness, who are good a reading a play and not just shooting 1 gap at the snap.

Ziggy was a bad pick because he was a 1 gap player who was terrible at reading the plays. By the time he picked the right gap, he was engulfed.

Hageman has shown the ability to be a 2 gap player. So has Tuitt, so has DaQuan Jones. They may not have done it very much but their skill set says they should be able to learn to do it.

 

[TMC]

Most colleges don't use a 3-4 or have their DL play 2 gap. Because of this, the steelers have traditionally drafted DE and swith them to OLB and DT and switch them to DE in the 3-4.

If you are looking for perfect fits for the steeler scheme then you are really limiting your draft board. If there's a guy who plays 2 gap, great, but that doesn't mean you cross off all the guys who are shooting gaps because then you'll have a pretty short draft list.

You have to judge whether they have the ability to 2 gap. You look for guys with strength and awareness, who are good a reading a play and not just shooting 1 gap at the snap.

Ziggy was a bad pick because he was a 1 gap player who was terrible at reading the plays. By the time he picked the right gap, he was engulfed.

Hageman has shown the ability to be a 2 gap player. So has Tuitt, so has DaQuan Jones. They may not have done it very much but their skill set says they should be able to learn to do it.

Yep, and Hageman is not a guy that gets pushed around with the double team either. Not sure what film they were watching.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

I know. I know but "Irish chocolate". Lol.