Tampa 2???

[antdrewjosh]

Labriola on Tampa-2, 1 RB and 2 CBs
Ready or not, here it comes:


PHOTOS: Offseason Workouts - Phase Two - 5-12-2016
* As an NFL assistant coach, Mike Tomlin was raised on the Tampa-2 defense. He learned it at the foot of a master, a man by the name of Monte Kiffin. After learning it, Tomlin helped teach it, and then saw it implemented and executed at a high enough level to be the primary reason for the one-and-only Super Bowl championship won by the Tampa Bay Buccaneers franchise.

* That experience is one of the reasons why Mike Tomlin today understands that the Tampa-2 defense as it was back then, the Tampa-2 defense that fans can recognize, the Tampa-2 defense that has been linked to the Steelers more and more since Keith Butler replaced Dick LeBeau as the defensive coordinator cannot work in the NFL anymore.

* Not as it was, it cannot. And that's because of the player safety initiative.

* Do not mistake the previous sentence as a whine, or the beginnings of a fond reminiscence of the good ol' days. Quite the contrary. The player safety initiative is a part of the NFL now, and its acceptance and wisepread implementation has to trickle down to the lower levels of the sport.

* But because of the player safety initiative in the NFL, the Tampa-2 that the Buccaneers used to win Super Bowl XXXVII is now ineffective if utilized exclusively, because NFL quarterbacks have become too decisive and too accurate, and the defensive backs and linebackers no longer can utilize physical violence as a way to separate the receiver from the football.

* In other words, imagine if Tampa Bay safety John Lynch were playing today. At 6-foot-2, 220 pounds, Lynch was considered by some NFL scouts to be too slow for the safety position, but Lynch made up for it with a ferocious hitting style that served to discourage offenses from sending their receivers into the areas he patrolled. Lynch played 224 games over 15 NFL seasons with the Buccaneers and then the Denver Broncos, and during a five-season span from 2001-05 he broke up 43 passes, and it's safe to assume the bulk of those came via hits separating the receiver from the football.

* Or the fear of those hits.

* Just keep this in mind come training camp in Latrobe, when afternoons can be spent watching Mike Tomlin and Carnell Lake working with the defensive backs, because the relative improvement of the Steelers pass defense is going to be a critical element of the team's success in 2016. And because of Tomlin's background, there is going to be a good bit of speculation surrounding the Steelers' style of coverage, what with Keith Butler evolving as a coordinator and the addition of No. 1 and No. 2 picks to the mix on the back end.

* But Tomlin knows why the Tampa-2 cannot work as it once did, and certainly not on a full-time basis as it once did. There can be elements of it incorporated into the overall scheme, and it likely can be utilized successfully in doses as long as it's not tipped off to the quarterback too early.



LIVE: A look at the 90 man roster
* The Steelers held their rookie minicamp last weekend, and the carrot for the bulk of the attendees was the chance to earn a spot on the 90-man roster. Once upon a time, that was Terence Garvin's route to training camp and ultimately enough of an NFL career to have earned a second NFL contract as an unrestricted free agent a couple of months ago.

* True to his word, Tomlin and his staff honestly assessed the weekend's activities and swapped out four tryout players for guys already on the roster. When it comes to exploiting competition to create the most formidable roster possible, there clearly is no time like the present, and it doesn't seem to matter if the guys added are no more likely to make the roster than the guys they replaced.

* Such is life in the NFL for the tryouts and the futures contract signers, but there are a couple of names certain to entice Steelers Nation in the long drought between the start of football in shorts and the first live tackling drill at Saint Vincent College, just based on last weekend's rookie minicamp.

* Running back Cameron Stingily and cornerback Donald Washington.

* Stingily is not only enticing but also familiar, because he was a mid-camp addition last summer when injuries struck the team's depth chart at running back at a time when there still were a bunch of carries standing between the team and the start of the regular season. Somebody had to gobble them up, starting with those daily live tackling sessions on the practice fields, and Stingily was up to the challenge.

* But alas, his quest ended after 11 carries for 18 yards in the Hall of Fame Game because the NFL couldn't be bothered to stage this extra preseason game on a field with a playing surface suitable for professional athletes. Stingily and Shaun Suisham were the victims of knee injuries that night, and if not for that it's possible it could have been Stingily instead of Fitzgerald Toussaintlining up behind Ben Roethlisberger in that AFC Divisional Round Game in Denver against the Broncos.

* The interest in Washington can be traced to the position he plays, but also because while he arrived in Pittsburgh as a tryout he had entered the NFL in 2009 as a fourth-round pick of the Kansas City Chiefs. Washington worked his way to backup strong safety with the Chiefs by 2011, and in what was his best season he recorded 25 tackles, a forced fumble, and one pass defensed. After a 2014 season spent in Canada with the Toronto Argonauts, Washington was giving the NFL another shot with a team certainly interested in shaking things up in its secondary.

* It's likely that Washington was able to stand out last weekend because there wasn't a pedigreed quarterback or wide receiver on the property, but today that doesn't matter because he's got his foot in the door.


PHOTOS: 2016 Steelers Rookie Minicamp -5/7
* But there's another guy at that same critical position to watch during this run-up to training camp. Montell Garner, like Washington, is 6-foot and right around 195 pounds. Like Washington, Garner has some NFL experience, with his coming in the form of one whole preseason after signing as an undrafted rookie with the St. Louis Rams in 2015.

* During the same weekend that ended with Washington being offered a contract, Garner had three interceptions, but those deserve to be viewed within the same context of the level of quarterback play. But remember, this is a Steelers team intent on re-making the secondary, and three interceptions over five padless practices are still three interceptions.


* There was some divided opinion on Garner as he was completing his college career at South Florida, and the Steelers now are open to the idea that the guys who were high on Garner might've been more right in their evaluation of him than the guys who weren't.

* The reality of their job is so harsh that a spot on the 90-man roster today isn't even a certain ticket to a dorm room at Saint Vincent College, and there have been many who came to learn that the dorm room at Saint Vincent College still left them far, far away from a locker at the UPMC Rooney Sports Complex.

 

[POP]

I didn't read every word, but I didn't read anything that really seemed to indicate they were going Tampa 2. Not only that, but they only drafted 1 DL after losing 1 to free agency. That would seem to indicate they are not trying to run a 4-3. We need more lineman to do that.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Yes it lends more credence to the fact they won't be running the Tampa 2. That it doesn't work as well in today's NFL. Alot of people around here think that we are trying to make that our defense because that's what Tomlin cut his teeth doing when he broke into the league

 

[POP]

Yes it lends more credence to the fact they won't be running the Tampa 2. That it doesn't work as well in today's NFL. Alot of people around here think that we are trying to make that our defense because that's what Tomlin cut his teeth doing when he broke into the league

I think ALL signs to point to them NOT going 4-3, starting with keeping Butler and moving him to DC. He is a 3-4 guy and has been at least ever since he has been in Pgh. If they were going to make a change, they would have done it when they pushed Dick out.

And nothing in FA or the draft indicated there would be a move to Tampa 2.

And, the article noted that the Tampa 2, if anything, is less effective, as hammering WRs with safeties now draw flags. Think of what defenders are allowed to hit now? You can't hit them in the head, at all, no matter what (unless it's a RB carrying the ball), you can't hit a "defenseless" WR, period. The Tampa 2 is based on the safeties bringing the lumber; if you can't, then the whole system isn't effective.

 

[F83]

I see some 4-3 until the SS position is settled hard to think tamps 2 you can easily have shazier at MLB and maybe a S duo of Grant and Mitchell could work.

 

[diver]

Does it matter anymore what you are labeled as? Hell, they are only in that base defense 25% of the time from what I read somewhere.

 

[steelpastor]

.

Running a Tampa-2 does not necessarily mean a four man front. A Tampa-2 defensive backfield can operate behind a 3-4 front end with some adjustments. It requires having a freak LB--like Shazier--to pull it off. We have actually used this already at times... nothing new. Sean Davis could open up some possibilities as well. Tampa-2 or cover two zone would not require a change in fronts, nor would it be a our most used alignment.

.

 

[madinsomniac]

Yes we incorporated tampa 2 into dlb's 34 years ago... I just dont see the use if dbs cant hit

 

[deljzc]

Every defense in the old days involved secondary intimidation as part of their "scheme". They all taught safeties to hit hard.

The "Tampa-2" has run it's course just like most defenses from the mid-1990's. It's just such a catchy label people love to resurrect as a description of any front that likes to generate pressure using only 4 pass rushers, drops the middle linebacker a bit deeper than normal into zone, has a cover-2 look with the safeties and predominantly prioritizes speed vs. size in it's linebacking core.

On those most basic terms, many teams run a "Tampa-2" on some defensive calls.

What made Tampa Bay's 1996-2001 defense so effective was not so much the scheme, but the matchups it created with the offenses at the time and the great talent of the players involved.

People have to remember the time frame and competitors Dungy/Kiffin came into when they took over Tampa-Bay in the mid-90's. First, they were bad. 13 straight losing seasons (1983-1995). Second, they played in the most pass-happy division in football at the time. Green Bay was run by Brett Favre and the middle of his 3-peat MVP run. Detroit was using the run-and-shoot. Minnesota was a potent offensive team.

And maybe more importantly the passing threats on these teams were the WR's. From 1996-1998, you have Antonio Freeman, Herman Moore, Jake Reed, Brett Perriman, Chris Carter and eventually Randy Moss all on leaderboards for receptions, yards and ypc.

The Tampa-2 was created in this environment to combat the passing of the time and the particular WR's they faced. And there really isn't a better prevent defense against good receivers than the Tampa-2.

Also the Tampa-2 blended with the talent they had. Remember, Dungy/Kiffin did NOT draft Warren Sapp, Derrick Brooks (they were drafted the year before they arrived) or John Lynch (drafted in 1993) but what a nice coincidence those players became epitomes of "Tampa-2" style players.

 

[SteelerSask2]

I think what you will see happening as an evolution to smaller hybrid type players particularly at linebacker. This trend will continue until it gets to a tipping point of small guys and then someone goes back to serious power running football because everyone on the field is outside of the 3 or 4 guys up front is 230 lbs or less. Then that will get exploited. Essentially, that is part of what Alabama does in college. Everyone is playing these gimmicky spread type offenses. All the defenses have to respond to it with smaller quicker guys and every year Alabama trots out 3 huge tailbacks that power run the football. You match that up with a big tall fast receiver and when they have to stick 7 or more in the box to match your hulking Oline and powerback, then you go over the top on a one on one.

 

[SteelerFan448]

This draft seemed to be focused on what we still refer to as the "sub package" despite playing it a majority of the time. You added a defensive linemen who can rush the quarterback from the inside and another undersized linebacker with potential to develop into a pass rusher, but is capable in coverage. Without a true base 3-4 defense, I think you can get away with more specialized players and sub-type players who can rotate in and out of the lineup.

 

[POP]

.

Running a Tampa-2 does not necessarily mean a four man front. A Tampa-2 defensive backfield can operate behind a 3-4 front end with some adjustments. It requires having a freak LB--like Shazier--to pull it off. We have actually used this already at times... nothing new. Sean Davis could open up some possibilities as well. Tampa-2 or cover two zone would not require a change in fronts, nor would it be a our most used alignment.

.

To a degree. But if we are REALLY talking "Tampa 2" it does require a D that can get to the QB only sending 4 up front. Now, whether that is 3 DL and a LB, or 4 DL, I guess it can be either. But, in Tampa, that D only worked with needing to send only 4 after the QB.

 

[fogdoctor]

The Tampa-2 would still work today if you had a Derrick Brooks or Brian Urlacher AND you could still breathe on WRs without getting flagged. The no WR contact rules aside, the problem is that those true hybrid players are hard to find - more specifically, the ones that can flip their hips and go from cover-2 LB to a cover-3 safety in an instant. Travis Feeney was an interesting pick because his physical tools suggest he can do exactly that. I don't think he reacts fast enough to play that role but he was worth the pick.

I know that most of the youtube videos focus on Brooks hits / tackles but I'm not sure I have seen another player for from squared up at 5yds to 25yds from the line quicker. There was basically a 25yd box in the middle of the field that he just owned. Glad I could see him play.

 

[Coach]

Coach here. To run a " Tampa cover 2 ", you need a good four man rush. Ideally one wide 9 speed rusher and at least one 1 technique or gap shooter.

That's not us. Many of our sacks come from the Linebackers and DB's, who in a Tampa 2 seldom rush the passer.

Tomlin's specialty,so they say was DB's coaching and this Tampa Cover 2. Yet I see too many failed draft projects and one very bad 2nd contract given that the Steelers had to eat ( Cortez Allen )

Square peg meets round hole. Lake was an excellent player. As a coach, I'm just not seeing it. Butler's pass defense was ranked 29th out of 32, and this playing against 7 backup QB's. Lucky for him our offense can score in bunches, making it easier to predict and counter teams that are down points.

I do not think Burns is close to being ready, and I did not like what I saw on Davis in terms of reaction or coverage. Yet these are the investments made in rounds one or two. It could take 2-3 years to fix this pass defense, and much hinges on the rookies, and redshirt Golson.

 

[Stryker]

Coach here. To run a " Tampa cover 2 ", you need a good four man rush. Ideally one wide 9 speed rusher and at least one 1 technique or gap shooter.

That's not us. Many of our sacks come from the Linebackers and DB's, who in a Tampa 2 seldom rush the passer.

Tomlin's specialty,so they say was DB's coaching and this Tampa Cover 2. Yet I see too many failed draft projects and one very bad 2nd contract given that the Steelers had to eat ( Cortez Allen )

Square peg meets round hole. Lake was an excellent player. As a coach, I'm just not seeing it. Butler's pass defense was ranked 29th out of 32, and this playing against 7 backup QB's. Lucky for him our offense can score in bunches, making it easier to predict and counter teams that are down points.

I do not think Burns is close to being ready, and I did not like what I saw on Davis in terms of reaction or coverage. Yet these are the investments made in rounds one or two. It could take 2-3 years to fix this pass defense, and much hinges on the rookies, and redshirt Golson.

The past 2 years, our sack leader was a DL.

 

[Coach]

The past 2 years, our sack leader was a DL.

Break down our sack total, and tell me how many were from DL players and how many were from LB and DB's. Our 4 man rush in a " Tampa 2 " would be weak. Like I said you need a wide 9 speed rusher and at least one 1 technique or gap shooter to make it work. We have neither.

Leading the team at 7 sacks is nice, but it would be a lot nicer if the numbers were 10-15.

 

[POP]

The Tampa-2 would still work today if you had a Derrick Brooks or Brian Urlacher AND you could still breathe on WRs without getting flagged. The no WR contact rules aside, the problem is that those true hybrid players are hard to find - more specifically, the ones that can flip their hips and go from cover-2 LB to a cover-3 safety in an instant. Travis Feeney was an interesting pick because his physical tools suggest he can do exactly that. I don't think he reacts fast enough to play that role but he was worth the pick.

I know that most of the youtube videos focus on Brooks hits / tackles but I'm not sure I have seen another player for from squared up at 5yds to 25yds from the line quicker. There was basically a 25yd box in the middle of the field that he just owned. Glad I could see him play.

Urlacher was famous for how fast he could drop back into coverage, and Shazier, with his sub 4.4 speed, should probably be able to do it as well. Regardless, there could be a variation of the Tampa 2, but probably not be identical to what was run in the past, due to the rules on hitting these days. Warren Sapp used to call John Lynch "friendly fire" due to how much hitting he did, even to his own teammates. He would not be able to play that style today or it would be flag city.

 

[POP]

Coach here. To run a " Tampa cover 2 ", you need a good four man rush. Ideally one wide 9 speed rusher and at least one 1 technique or gap shooter.

That's not us. Many of our sacks come from the Linebackers and DB's, who in a Tampa 2 seldom rush the passer.

Tomlin's specialty,so they say was DB's coaching and this Tampa Cover 2. Yet I see too many failed draft projects and one very bad 2nd contract given that the Steelers had to eat ( Cortez Allen )

Square peg meets round hole. Lake was an excellent player. As a coach, I'm just not seeing it. Butler's pass defense was ranked 29th out of 32, and this playing against 7 backup QB's. Lucky for him our offense can score in bunches, making it easier to predict and counter teams that are down points.

I do not think Burns is close to being ready, and I did not like what I saw on Davis in terms of reaction or coverage. Yet these are the investments made in rounds one or two. It could take 2-3 years to fix this pass defense, and much hinges on the rookies, and redshirt Golson.

SOME (and I do only mean "some") of giving up all those passing yards is caused from teams trying to keep up with our potent offense; they have to air it out in order to have a chance vs. the Steelers. Ben and the boys could hang a pile of points on you quick. Also, it became obvious that our pass D made rookie and journeyman QBs look like Dan Marino circa 1984. We made everyone look good.

 

[Hines57]

Coach here. To run a " Tampa cover 2 ", you need a good four man rush. Ideally one wide 9 speed rusher and at least one 1 technique or gap shooter.

That's not us. Many of our sacks come from the Linebackers and DB's, who in a Tampa 2 seldom rush the passer.

Tomlin's specialty,so they say was DB's coaching and this Tampa Cover 2. Yet I see too many failed draft projects and one very bad 2nd contract given that the Steelers had to eat ( Cortez Allen )

Square peg meets round hole. Lake was an excellent player. As a coach, I'm just not seeing it. Butler's pass defense was ranked 29th out of 32, and this playing against 7 backup QB's. Lucky for him our offense can score in bunches, making it easier to predict and counter teams that are down points.

I do not think Burns is close to being ready, and I did not like what I saw on Davis in terms of reaction or coverage. Yet these are the investments made in rounds one or two. It could take 2-3 years to fix this pass defense, and much hinges on the rookies, and redshirt Golson.

I'd say a good chunk of our DBs getting better in coverage has to do with Dupree and JJ rushing the QB. We didn't get as much of that last year as we'd like. Dupree should be much better. Don't see JJ progressing much but anything is better than nothing.

 

[ark steel]

I'd say a good chunk of our DBs getting better in coverage has to do with Dupree and JJ rushing the QB.

Probably the reverse, as well. If our DB's can cover for more than 2 seconds, the pass rushers have more time to get to the QB.

 

[Stryker]

Break down our sack total, and tell me how many were from DL players and how many were from LB and DB's. Our 4 man rush in a " Tampa 2 " would be weak. Like I said you need a wide 9 speed rusher and at least one 1 technique or gap shooter to make it work. We have neither.

Leading the team at 7 sacks is nice, but it would be a lot nicer if the numbers were 10-15.

Cam Heyward is a pretty damn good gap shooter. When he wants to get after the QB, he gets there.

 

[Wingman]

this is what the bears linebacker is famous for around here.

 

[F83]

if we intregrated into lebeau's system there had to be resistence as to how much of a tampa 2 would be allowed and the DB's 2/3 were at the end of thier Careers with nothing left in the tank troy and Taylor.