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How much more do YOU need to see

So the point of this thread is that it should only take 7 starts, 1 of which a guy was knock unconscious, and a few more where he is throwing to practice squad guys, to fully evaluate his whole career track.
 
SteelerSask said:
I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not blaming Ben for the OC. I'm saying that Ben and Rudolph are at very different spectrums of their career. Ben is past the point where he needed someone teaching him much and challenging him on everything. He needed someone to work closely with as a second set of eyes with a similar vision. Rudolph probably needs someone with more chops and teaching skill. I honestly and truly believe that Munchak was the only one on this staff who could do that. The proof I offer is that no one ever seems to get a hell of a lot better on this team. They either come out showing very well and are a starter / star or they are career backups.
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I don't know if I agree nobody gets a hell of a lot better. It just doesn't happen as much as you or I would like. Even stars have to be developed. Now obviously this team hasn't developed or identified talent enough to push them where they need to go. Luckily for them they had Big Ben to shoulder the load for so long. And for those few haters out there take a good look what life looks like without him.

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Hoot said:
The entire Baltimore offense this year was built around Jackson per the team.
Mayfield was the expected starter for CLE this year and thus had the entire offseason to develop.

I was referring to current season, not last year btw and not discussion about where other QB's were at game 7 in their first year as starters. Ultimately, I find these sorts of comparisons to be flawed because everyone is different and each team and circumstance is different. Right now, the only question I am concern with regrading MR is what can he develop into. Right now, I have concerns which is why I want to see him play out the season. After that, barring any serious setbacks, its Ben's team again, but at least we should know if MR will be the future starter or if we will be looking to acquire someone in the next two drafts.
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I hear you, but I'm talking about last year, their first years in the league. They didn't have a year to learn the system or the playbook, Baltimore's O was built around Flacco, so totally opposite of Jackson. Mayfield wasn't the day one starter, he wasn't getting the starting reps, but both guys stepped in and played pretty well as rookies who have had the playbook for 4 months.
Mason has had the system and playbook here for a year and a half. I've heard 1,000 times, the Steelers had a first round grade on him, there's alot of other young QB's who have stepped in and shown something very quickly. Who the hell is the guy in Jacksonville, Gardener Minshew, 6th round guy, he stepped in for Foles and played very good, Jacksonville has one of the leading WR's in the NFL that no one heard of either.

I never said this is what Rudolph will be his entire career or he's going to suck, but the alarming thing is, that it looks like right now for him to succeed, he needs everything around him to be going well. Defense needs to get turnovers, WR's/RB's have to be open by a few yards and alot of dump off and shallows. His deep balls are all underthrown, and he's not very accurate.
 
Coryea said:
I hear you, but I'm talking about last year, their first years in the league. They didn't have a year to learn the system or the playbook, Baltimore's O was built around Flacco, so totally opposite of Jackson. Mayfield wasn't the day one starter, he wasn't getting the starting reps, but both guys stepped in and played pretty well as rookies who have had the playbook for 4 months.
Mason has had the system and playbook here for a year and a half. I've heard 1,000 times, the Steelers had a first round grade on him, there's alot of other young QB's who have stepped in and shown something very quickly. Who the hell is the guy in Jacksonville, Gardener Minshew, 6th round guy, he stepped in for Foles and played very good, Jacksonville has one of the leading WR's in the NFL that no one heard of either.

I never said this is what Rudolph will be his entire career or he's going to suck, but the alarming thing is, that it looks like right now for him to succeed, he needs everything around him to be going well. Defense needs to get turnovers, WR's/RB's have to be open by a few yards and alot of dump off and shallows. His deep balls are all underthrown, and he's not very accurate.
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Fair enough. But do you think his issue is that he doesn't know the plays? I think he is having trouble adapting to the speed and struggles to execute more than lack of being able to regurgitate the playbook.

Yes, guys come in every year and do better than others. Different people make the leap at different rates. I am not trying to say the guy is or isn't great/bust. I am saying we are in the process of finding out. Unfortunately, the process is painful right now and has some things exasperating the issues...dropped balls, messy protection at times, etc.
 
Hoot said:
Fair enough. But do you think his issue is that he doesn't know the plays? I think he is having trouble adapting to the speed and struggles to execute more than lack of being able to regurgitate the playbook.

Yes, guys come in every year and do better than others. Different people make the leap at different rates. I am not trying to say the guy is or isn't great/bust. I am saying we are in the process of finding out. Unfortunately, the process is painful right now and has some things exasperating the issues...dropped balls, messy protection at times, etc.
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I've said this from day 1, I'm not saying Mason will be this bad forever, I've compared him to Odonnell, he can win games for us, but we have to have a good defense, line, and running game.
His arm isn't very strong, and no that's not a must, but when you're throwing to guys that are "college" open that arm strength isn't very noticeable, but when you have to throw to guys that are "NFL" open, that lack of arm strength is magnified and he's going to have to throw a touch sooner, he can't wait to see if the guy is open before he throws it.
He has good touch on his deep ball, but as we've seen, he has yet to overthrow anyone, they are all underthrown. Everyone keeps saying Ben had no arm strength this year, but he over threw Holton on a go route, and another one he led him perfectly on a deep ball that Horton tried to catch with his wrists.
Slow decision making and average at best arm strength is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
 
Hard to evaluate a guy who just had his worst game alongside the likes of a JaySam as the "feature back", no Rosie, Washington and Hilton as your only 2 healthy WRs and a massively overpaid, aging and underwhelming OL...but yeah go out there in your first year as a starter and make that hot steaming pile of **** look like a Porterhouse...yeah, ok

He hasn't been nearly as good as the stats looked in previous games with more healthy starters around him and I doubt he is as bad as he looked with that MASH unit around him

Too early to tell, but the arrow is pointing down despite his pedigree...obviously he needs to go down to Sherwinn Williams and get some more paint
 
SteelerSask said:
I think you are misunderstanding me. I'm not blaming Ben for the OC. I'm saying that Ben and Rudolph are at very different spectrums of their career. Ben is past the point where he needed someone teaching him much and challenging him on everything. He needed someone to work closely with as a second set of eyes with a similar vision. Rudolph probably needs someone with more chops and teaching skill. I honestly and truly believe that Munchak was the only one on this staff who could do that. The proof I offer is that no one ever seems to get a hell of a lot better on this team. They either come out showing very well and are a starter / star or they are career backups.
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I totally and completely disagree. The oline was consistently a disgrace before Munchak arrived. And with very little draft help he moulded one of the top units in the league. Now he is gone and Big Al who was playing Pro Bowl level got beat like a ****** drum last week. Ir take the Pat's for example. They routinely take units that are underperforming in week 1-5 and make them solid by the end of the year. Tgat is coaching, preparation and most importantly adjustment in game. I dont believe anyone is capable of that on this coaching staff.
 
Based on that I remember from his college stats, it took him 2 years to kinda figure it out and then he only had 1 year >65% completion. I would need to see another 2 years from him in the NFL before calling it done.

If Ben is not coming back then it's worth waiting 2 years and seeing how he turns out. If it looks like he will be back at close to 100% then I hope Mason plays lights out and we can trade him for something.
 
Coryea said:
I've said this from day 1, I'm not saying Mason will be this bad forever, I've compared him to Odonnell, he can win games for us, but we have to have a good defense, line, and running game.
His arm isn't very strong, and no that's not a must, but when you're throwing to guys that are "college" open that arm strength isn't very noticeable, but when you have to throw to guys that are "NFL" open, that lack of arm strength is magnified and he's going to have to throw a touch sooner, he can't wait to see if the guy is open before he throws it.
He has good touch on his deep ball, but as we've seen, he has yet to overthrow anyone, they are all underthrown. Everyone keeps saying Ben had no arm strength this year, but he over threw Holton on a go route, and another one he led him perfectly on a deep ball that Horton tried to catch with his wrists.
Slow decision making and average at best arm strength is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
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I don’t think Mason could actually win a game for us. He’s the perfect example of a game manager, he cannot turn the ball over and the defense has to play great in order to have a chance. I think his ceiling is Neil O’Donnell. Right now, he reminds me of Mike Tomczak, he’s not even as good as a Tommy Maddox yet.


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mdk2 said:
I don’t think Mason could actually win a game for us. He’s the perfect example of a game manager, he cannot turn the ball over and the defense has to play great in order to have a chance. I think his ceiling is Neil O’Donnell. Right now, he reminds me of Mike Tomczak, he’s not even as good as a Tommy Maddox yet.


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I should've phrased that differently, I think it's possible to win games with him at QB, not he can win games. I can't see him putting the team on his back and winning games.
 
Coryea said:
I've said this from day 1, I'm not saying Mason will be this bad forever, I've compared him to Odonnell, he can win games for us, but we have to have a good defense, line, and running game.
His arm isn't very strong, and no that's not a must, but when you're throwing to guys that are "college" open that arm strength isn't very noticeable, but when you have to throw to guys that are "NFL" open, that lack of arm strength is magnified and he's going to have to throw a touch sooner, he can't wait to see if the guy is open before he throws it.
He has good touch on his deep ball, but as we've seen, he has yet to overthrow anyone, they are all underthrown. Everyone keeps saying Ben had no arm strength this year, but he over threw Holton on a go route, and another one he led him perfectly on a deep ball that Horton tried to catch with his wrists.
Slow decision making and average at best arm strength is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
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Holton was overthrown on his drop in the EZ, DJ was overthrown when he got concussed by that dirty *******. So yes, I have seen Rudolph overthrow players on vertical routes

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Litos said:
Holton was overthrown on his drop in the EZ, DJ was overthrown when he got concussed by that dirty *******. So yes, I have seen Rudolph overthrow players on vertical routes

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The throw to DJ was a pretty good thrown ball I thought, should've been PI, that kept DJ from getting to the ball. I don't remember the Holton drop.
 
Coryea said:
I've said this from day 1, I'm not saying Mason will be this bad forever, I've compared him to Odonnell, he can win games for us, but we have to have a good defense, line, and running game.
His arm isn't very strong, and no that's not a must, but when you're throwing to guys that are "college" open that arm strength isn't very noticeable, but when you have to throw to guys that are "NFL" open, that lack of arm strength is magnified and he's going to have to throw a touch sooner, he can't wait to see if the guy is open before he throws it.
He has good touch on his deep ball, but as we've seen, he has yet to overthrow anyone, they are all underthrown. Everyone keeps saying Ben had no arm strength this year, but he over threw Holton on a go route, and another one he led him perfectly on a deep ball that Horton tried to catch with his wrists.
Slow decision making and average at best arm strength is a recipe for disaster, IMO.
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Lol.
“Everyone keeps saying Ben has no arm strength this year”. As usual no matter what Ben has to enter or be inferred in your discussion. Ben has been accused of a lot of things but no arm strength? Everyone keeps saying? Show me all these people that just keep saying that. Everyone? Lol.
 
Steelmann said:
Lol.
“Everyone keeps saying Ben has no arm strength this year”. As usual no matter what Ben has to enter or be inferred in your discussion. Ben has been accused of a lot of things but no arm strength? Everyone keeps saying? Show me all these people that just keep saying that. Everyone? Lol.
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It is a reference to whatever injury was obviously holding him back.

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Drink IRON City said:
Ummmmmm he was drafted in 2018............ This is 2019............... Did I miss a year or have I been in BAzzorO. World and math is now different these days ?
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And last year he never played in a game at all so this is really year one.
 
Lighten up people! We will be lucky to go 8 and 8 without Big Ben.

Losing AB hurt our deep threat and no one has stepped up but with BR it isn't likely to happen.

In addition losing Leveann Bell has hurt. James Connor is a great guy but he's hurt too often.

Give Mason Rudolph a chance.

Would have been nice to have Hinds Ward and Heath Miller here now who could actually CATCH a ball thrown near them to help out this rookie QB!
 
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He has barley played. Get a grip for ***** sake.
 
Steelmann said:
Lol.
“Everyone keeps saying Ben has no arm strength this year”. As usual no matter what Ben has to enter or be inferred in your discussion. Ben has been accused of a lot of things but no arm strength? Everyone keeps saying? Show me all these people that just keep saying that. Everyone? Lol.
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https://steelernationforums.com/showthread.php?33167-Bens-Elbow&p=677852#post677852

one of the last posts, there's one. I'll call the X and the Fan to see if I can get phone numbers of people who have called in and said that, there's others here too.

My bad, I forgot it's perfectly acceptable for people to bring Ben up in an attempt to make Rudolph's poor play acceptable, can't bring Ben up to in any shape or form to make Rudolph look bad.
 
SteveA said:
If you want a statue dropping back for you every Sunday who plays scared, holds onto the ball too long, & has a popgun for an arm, than Mason is your man...
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Now add in his pocket presence sucks, he’s fumble prone and his accuracy leaves a lot to be desired.

Routes like the deep out, square in, and deep curl are out of action with him at QB. He can not fire it between defenders and he lacks the touch to complete passes in zone over the LB’s

If the opposing DC would bump or running back or get ready to jump the dump off passes he throws it would really get ugly.


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Ben better come back healthy. Still if trade our 2nd and projected 3rd round comp pick to move up on round two to get Joe Burrow if he slips out of round one. He’s very impressive.

I’d also trade Rudolph for any team dumb enough to offer us say their 4th round pick once the season ends.


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Joe Burrow could go #1 overall. No chance we sniff him. If anyone we may have a chance with, but even is highly unlikely could be Tua, but I doubt he gets out of the first round or very high 2nd nd. MR is not going anywhere. He's in his first season as a starter and is only 24. He'll be backing Ben up next year or starting if BB is not ready.
 
Coach said:
Ben better come back healthy. Still if trade our 2nd and projected 3rd round comp pick to move up on round two to get Joe Burrow if he slips out of round one. He’s very impressive.

I’d also trade Rudolph for any team dumb enough to offer us say their 4th round pick once the season ends.


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You should trade Rudolph now after the trade deadline for Cleveland's two number 1's.

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