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The Coronavirus thread

You know what trend I see here? The lowest rates now are places where covid hit hardest and earliest. The highest are places that got it later.

Gee, it's almost like if you have more natural immunity in the population it can't spread as fast.

Nah, I'm sure it's the masks.

Not totally true. We are on the same page on this issue. However, the hardest hit places like NY and NJ and the Northeast still remain high in new cases. They have consistently throughout the duration of COVID.

See the list I posted here. NY/NJ still in the top 10 in terms of cases per 100K over the past 7 days (and the 7 days prior)

 
Not totally true. We are on the same page on this issue. However, the hardest hit places like NY and NJ and the Northeast still remain high in new cases. They have consistently throughout the duration of COVID.

See the list I posted here. NY/NJ still in the top 10 in terms of cases per 100K over the past 7 days (and the 7 days prior)

I haven't read a lot of the posts on this because honestly it's of little interest to me. If there was some clear convincing link to mask wearing and reduction in spread we would know it. It would be plastered all over the media 24/7. The fact that it can even be debated means that clear convincing evidence doesn't exist.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time ferreting out statistics on who is doing better or worse at any given time. A pandemic will have ebbs and flows. We've seen that all over the country. No one is safe from an outbreak because of the contagiousness of this illness and the realities of human behavior. Nothing but immunity through vaccines or prior illness will make it so.

I consider masks a minimally effective mitigation measure (how can anyone consider them anything more than that, the way this thing has spread despite half the population screaming MASKS MASKS MASKS for months) but one that is not all that burdensome so why the hell not. Pretty much how I've felt from the beginning.
 
I haven't read a lot of the posts on this because honestly it's of little interest to me. If there was some clear convincing link to mask wearing and reduction in spread we would know it. It would be plastered all over the media 24/7. The fact that it can even be debated means that clear convincing evidence doesn't exist.

I'm not going to spend a lot of time ferreting out statistics on who is doing better or worse at any given time. A pandemic will have ebbs and flows. We've seen that all over the country. No one is safe from an outbreak because of the contagiousness of this illness and the realities of human behavior. Nothing but immunity through vaccines or prior illness will make it so.

I consider masks a minimally effective mitigation measure (how can anyone consider them anything more than that, the way this thing has spread despite half the population screaming MASKS MASKS MASKS for months) but one that is not all that burdensome so why the hell not. Pretty much how I've felt from the beginning.

I'm just saying, as you've seen, I've acutely paid attention to states with and without mask mandates. And I can tell you that for the continuum of the year, many of the hardest hit states have not left the hardest hit category.
 
Tim, I'm starting to think you have some wierd, mask-wearing OCD/paranoia/fetish issues that's causing you to freak out about this 24/7.

Like who gives a ****, it's just a mask, hundreds of millions of people are wearing them every single day. Hopefully soon, there'll come a time when we won't be required to do so. If it mitigates the spread by even 5% it's already worth it, if it saves a single life.

Who knows why you're being a Karen and having a total hissy-fit meltdown over masks. Maybe it's therapeutic for you to rant about this non-stop, over and over, page after page. If it helps you in any way, then by all means keep at it. We'll just sit here and hope you get over this somehow, someday.
 
Where I live (suburb of Philly) everyone wears masks all the time. At least in public. Everyone is masked in stores. Kids wear masks in school and while playing sports. Yet people are still getting infected. I know people who are absolutely fanatical about masks and social distancing who have gotten infected.

You would think if masks were everything they were cracked up to be we would mostly see only see crazy right wing Trumper anti-maskers getting covid. Yet that's not the case.

Either masks don't work all that well, or a lot of people who pretend to be extremely conscientious about wearing them are lying.

I don't doubt that maybe masks can be helpful in close quarters in reducing some of the droplets flying around. They might have slowed the rate of transmission a little. But somewhere along the way (probably because Trump didn't enthusiastically get on board with them) they were politicized and transformed by the media into some magic panacea. If only we all wore them covid would go away!

That is utter stupidity.

Hundreds of millions of people around the world have been wearing masks for months. If masks stopped the spread of this illness significantly there would be some clear and convincing statistical evidence of that. As these pages of detailed and nuanced debate prove, that simply doesn't exist
Hundreds of millions of people around the world in countries that had stricter mask mandates, and much lower cases and deaths, would shake their heads in disbelief at any American who believes that.

Even Sweden recommended wearing face masks for public transportation.
 
You know what trend I see here? The lowest rates now are places where covid hit hardest and earliest. The highest are places that got it later.

Gee, it's almost like if you have more natural immunity in the population it can't spread as fast.

Nah, I'm sure it's the masks.
Earliest? What is this, August? Everywhere got hit in the fall.
 
Hundreds of millions of people around the world in countries that had stricter mask mandates, and much lower cases and deaths, would shake their heads in disbelief at any American who believes that.

Even Sweden recommended wearing face masks for public transportation.
Stricter mask mandates than where? As mentioned, I live in place where masks are required everywhere. Kids wear masks to school and to play sports. Most of the people here wear masks even when walking in the park literally football fields away from each other.

Cases are currently rising. How do you explain that?
 
I pulled the last 7 days from the beloved New York Times tracker, your golden source of knowledge. Updated April 21

The facts stand. You can look at changes in cases. A change from 2 cases a day to 3 is gonna look really drastic from a % standpoint.

Cases per 100K over the past 7 days is a far more accurate measurement of where we are.


They even have big pretty pictures for you.

View attachment 5050

I'll ask again, if masks worked, why are the states that are suffering the most still the states with mask mandates? Simple question you seem afraid to answer.
The states with mask mandates are mostly densely populated states that are at a disadvantage in managing Covid. Many are also cold weather states where people are are starting to gather more during warmer weather. Many also recently loosened restrictions after vaccinating their at risk population.

I’ll ask you again, why would rural states have many of the highest all-time Covid rates? What explains that if it’s not a lack of mask wearing and restrictions?
 
Masks aren't some airtight, HAZMAT-suit solution that will protect you 100%. It limits the spread to some extent. It's not a cure-all, fix-all solution to the problem, never was. It's not some magical shield that's gonna protect you 100%. Just one, rather simple way to try to help mitigate the spread of an airborne disease that's killed nearly 600k Americans and over 3M people worldwide.

Same with vaccinations, they will not protect you 100%. You can still catch & carry the virus after getting vaccinated. But it will limit your symptoms and likely keep you from dying. Though not a 100% fix, vaccinations will greatly reduce your chances of getting Covid and spreading it to others.

Wearing masks, getting vaccinated, adhering to social distancing.... none of these are ironclad answers to anything. But they do work together in unison, to help reduce the spread and buy time until enough of the population has antibodies or is vaccinated to a level where Covid peters-out and goes away.

I don't have the slightest idea why any of this is so difficult to comprehend.
 
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Tim, I'm starting to think you have some wierd, mask-wearing OCD/paranoia/fetish issues that's causing you to freak out about this 24/7.

Like who gives a ****, it's just a mask, hundreds of millions of people are wearing them every single day. Hopefully soon, there'll come a time when we won't be required to do so. If it mitigates the spread by even 5% it's already worth it, if it saves a single life.

Who knows why you're being a Karen and having a total hissy-fit meltdown over masks. Maybe it's therapeutic for you to rant about this non-stop, over and over, page after page. If it helps you in any way, then by all means keep at it. We'll just sit here and hope you get over this somehow, someday.

I'd walk around in a bubble if it was proven to work. I'll take a vaccine because I know it does.

I however have a problem with being lied to. Like being told systemic racism is rampant in America.

If there was any evidence masking slowed the spread of the virus, I'd personally run PSAs for it. Otherwise, don't insult me with these mandates that don't work.
 
I saw an article about the Oscar's. They are not supposed to have masks on during on air time, but during commercials and what not put them on. I don't know who comes up with these rules
 
The states with mask mandates are mostly densely populated states that are at a disadvantage in managing Covid.
Wrong. Do you EVER, ever, ever, ever validate anything you say? Ever? MOST states still have mask mandates and they range from dense to not-dense. SMDH.

1619035132196.png


Many are also cold weather states where people are are starting to gather more during warmer weather.

Let me post this again. Many are NOT cold weather states.
1619035132196.png

Show me one study that shows any locale where masks were implemented and cases dropped. Any graphs. Any measurable or notable evidence you can point to that says "we implemented masks here..." and "see, cases dropped by this much."
 
Masks aren't some airtight, HAZMAT-suit solution that will protect you 100%. It limits the spread to some extent.

If you bothered to read any of the studies posted...any of them...you'd see that the masks we all wear - non N95 masks - stop the spread of droplets. The snot bubbles you emit when you cough/sneeze.

They do NOT prevent the spread of aerosols. They allow 97% of aerosols to pass through. How do we know this? Scientists have now measured the micron sizes of COVID. Those microns pass RIGHT THROUGH CLOTH and surgical masks.

Masks limit the spread up to maybe 3% of aerosols. For droplets, you're equally as safe coughing into your elbow or a handkerchief.

(these aren't my words, they are from the studies previously posted).

The droplets are of less to concern to us from what I have read. Droplets are heavy. When emitted, they fall rapidly to the ground. It's the aerosols we emit, that can hang in the air for MINUTES where the danger lies.

This is your mask and COVID is a mosquito. How many mosquitos will this chain link fence stop?

1619035686200.png
 
If you bothered to read any of the studies posted...any of them...

You are simply wrong and are doing a great disservice by cherry-picking certain, specifc studies and drawing wild conclusions from them.

For every one-off study or article you draw on, there are 50x that say otherwise. That's why it seems you have some ulterior motive in fighting for a cause with no end game, nothing at all to gain from it. For whatever reason, you continue to choose to do so.


Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends fabric masks for the general public.


Shifting guidelines may have sowed confusion among the public about the utility of masks. But health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and that the more people wearing masks, the better.


The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high. Given the current shortages of medical masks, we recommend the adoption of public cloth mask wearing, as an effective form of source control, in conjunction with existing hygiene, distancing, and contact tracing strategies.


To be clear, the science supports using masks, with recent studies suggesting that they could save lives in different ways: research shows that they cut down the chances of both transmitting and catching the coronavirus, and some studies hint that masks might reduce the severity of infection if people do contract the disease.


SARS-CoV-2 infection is transmitted predominately by respiratory droplets generated when people cough, sneeze, sing, talk, or breathe. CDC recommends community use of masks, specifically non-valved multi-layer cloth masks, to prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2. Masks are primarily intended to reduce the emission of virus-laden droplets (“source control”), which is especially relevant for asymptomatic or presymptomatic infected wearers who feel well and may be unaware of their infectiousness to others, and who are estimated to account for more than 50% of transmissions.1,2 Masks also help reduce inhalation of these droplets by the wearer (“filtration for personal protection”). The community benefit of masking for SARS-CoV-2 control is due to the combination of these effects; individual prevention benefit increases with increasing numbers of people using masks consistently and correctly.


“The science is really clear on this—that masks are an important way that we can all slow down and prevent the spread of COVID-19,” said Preeti Malani, MD, chief health officer and professor of medicine in the infectious diseases division at the University of Michigan.
 
It's remarkable that we're still talking about whether or not masks "work". It doesn't matter if they do or don't, now does it?

"But we want to slow the spread of the virus!"
why?
"So we don't overwhelm the hospitals!!"
We didn't at the apex of the Pandemic and we wont now either. hospitals are properly staffed, procedures implemented, and CPE is distributed. So why slow the spread of the virus?
"So the vulnerable don't die!!"
So prioritize the vaccines for the most vulnerable and allow the herd immunity do it's thing

There is no reason at this point that we shouldn't be fully open, non-masked, non-socially distanced, with kids going back to school and adults going back to work in their offices, plants, and warehouses. None.

For those who are more At Risk, let's vaccinate and limit outside exposures. Keep travel limitations in place. Let's get back to normal and stop this non-sense.

It doesn't matter whether the mask works or not. Period.
 
I'd walk around in a bubble if it was proven to work. I'll take a vaccine because I know it does.

I however have a problem with being lied to. Like being told systemic racism is rampant in America.

If there was any evidence masking slowed the spread of the virus, I'd personally run PSAs for it. Otherwise, don't insult me with these mandates that don't work.
OK, walking around in a bubble actually would work, Tim. You don’t even realize that you’ve convinced yourself that Covid is random and nothing can slow it’s spread other than immunity.
 
There is no reason at this point that we shouldn't be fully open, non-masked, non-socially distanced, with kids going back to school and adults going back to work in their offices, plants, and warehouses. None.

Thanks to the immense effort by this administration to get 200M vaccines in arms, the country is heading in that direction, sooner than later.
 
You are simply wrong and are doing a great disservice by cherry-picking certain, specifc studies and drawing wild conclusions from them.

For every one-off study or article you draw on, there are 50x that say otherwise. That's why it seems you have some ulterior motive in fighting for a cause with no end game, nothing at all to gain from it. For whatever reason, you continue to choose to do so.


Can face masks help slow the spread of the coronavirus (SARS-CoV-2) that causes COVID-19? Yes. Face masks combined with other preventive measures, such as frequent hand-washing and physical distancing, can help slow the spread of the virus.

The U.S. Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC) recommends fabric masks for the general public.


Shifting guidelines may have sowed confusion among the public about the utility of masks. But health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19 and that the more people wearing masks, the better.


The preponderance of evidence indicates that mask wearing reduces transmissibility per contact by reducing transmission of infected respiratory particles in both laboratory and clinical contexts. Public mask wearing is most effective at reducing spread of the virus when compliance is high. Given the current shortages of medical masks, we recommend the adoption of public cloth mask wearing, as an effective form of source control, in conjunction with existing hygiene, distancing, and contact tracing strategies.


To be clear, the science supports using masks, with recent studies suggesting that they could save lives in different ways: research shows that they cut down the chances of both transmitting and catching the coronavirus, and some studies hint that masks might reduce the severity of infection if people do contract the disease.


SARS-CoV-2 infection is transmitted predominately by respiratory droplets generated when people cough, sneeze, sing, talk, or breathe. CDC recommends community use of masks, specifically non-valved multi-layer cloth masks, to prevent transmission of SARS-CoV-2. Masks are primarily intended to reduce the emission of virus-laden droplets (“source control”), which is especially relevant for asymptomatic or presymptomatic infected wearers who feel well and may be unaware of their infectiousness to others, and who are estimated to account for more than 50% of transmissions.1,2 Masks also help reduce inhalation of these droplets by the wearer (“filtration for personal protection”). The community benefit of masking for SARS-CoV-2 control is due to the combination of these effects; individual prevention benefit increases with increasing numbers of people using masks consistently and correctly.


“The science is really clear on this—that masks are an important way that we can all slow down and prevent the spread of COVID-19,” said Preeti Malani, MD, chief health officer and professor of medicine in the infectious diseases division at the University of Michigan.

They Mayo Clinic article simply says things like " can help slow the spread of the virus" and points to other agencies to share that you should. It even admits that masks beyond N95s are lesser in quality. No research or scientific evaluation of the effectiveness of masks with this virus.
-----

The CDC article is from last JUNE. It states "But health experts say the evidence is clear that masks can help prevent the spread of COVID-19..." It points to studies on other diseases. It does attempt to say that in 5 areas, they noticed a drop in cases in the 5 days after mask mandates were implemented. 5 days. FIVE days. They don't name the states but I'm willing to bet 100 to 1 if we looked at those states now (not June of 2020), we'd see each of those locales saw cases skyrocket again...mitigating the value.
-----

Your PNAS article states: "If there is strong direct evidence, either a suitably powered randomized controlled trial (RCT), or a suitably powered metaanalysis of RCTs, or a systematic review of unbiased observational studies that finds compelling evidence, then that would be sufficient for evaluating the efficacy of public mask wearing, at least in the contexts studied." Huh? This article points to wearing cloth masks in 1910 during the Manchurian Flu...as evidence.

It then goes on to discuss studies of masking with the Flu. This isn't the FLU. Further it states: "Overall, evidence from RCTs and observational studies is informative, but not compelling on its own. Both the Australian influenza RCT and the Beijing households observational trial found around 80% efficacy among compliant subjects, and the one SARS household study of sufficient power found 70% efficacy for protecting the wearer. However, we do not know whether the results from influenza or SARS will correspond to results for SARS-CoV-2, and the single observational study of SARS-CoV-2 might not be replicated in other communities. None of the studies looked specifically at cloth masks." Huh, what?
-----
Your Nature article (that scientific resource - from last OCTOBER) conflicts with CURRENT science, which says that the COVID virus is 60 nm to 140nm.....that's nanometers. Your article stipulates that COVID is thousands of times LARGER, measured in micrometers:

The article states (again dated information): "The virus itself is only about 0.1 µm (micrometer) in diameter." That is a MICRO METER. The difference between a nanometer and a micrometer. A nanometer is 1,000 times smaller than a micrometer.

If you mischaracterize the size of the virus, then one would assume a mask works.

The Stanford study I posted was from January 2021, and according to their study: "According to the current knowledge, the virus SARS-CoV-2 has a diameter of 60 nm to 140 nm [nanometers (billionth of a meter)], while medical and non-medical facemasks’ thread diameter ranges from 55 µm to 440 µm [micrometers (one millionth of a meter), which is more than 1000 times larger."

That study, the most recent study including those you posted, shows....a mask is this:
1619040419082.png

And COVID is this:

1619040442127.png

Now you run around talking about "the science" then you post a Nature.com article. I'm referencing a study done by Stanford University. I think, and call me crazy, I'll lean towards Stanford's article posted....this year.
-----
Finally your last article says (posted in December): "The use of multilayer cloth masks can block 50–70% of fine droplets and particles. They can also limit the forward spread of droplets and particles that are not captured, notes the CDC. In fact, upwards of 80% blockage has been achieved with cloth masks in some studies, which is about on par with surgical masks as barriers for source control."

Notice no mention of aerosols? Just the prevention of "droplets" and "particles." I don't argue they do that. But it's already been established that coughing into a handkerchief does the same thing.

Given the evidence COVID is passed via aerosols....well, this article too is omitting the important means by which COVID is transmitted.

You may benefit from reading the Stanford study Tibs:


"A randomized controlled trial (RCT) of 246 participants [123 (50%) symptomatic)] who were allocated to either wearing or not wearing surgical facemask, assessing viruses transmission including coronavirus [26]. The results of this study showed that among symptomatic individuals (those with fever, cough, sore throat, runny nose ect…) there was no difference between wearing and not wearing facemask for coronavirus droplets transmission of particles of >5 µm. Among asymptomatic individuals, there was no droplets or aerosols coronavirus detected from any participant with or without the mask, suggesting that asymptomatic individuals do not transmit or infect other people [26]. This was further supported by a study on infectivity where 445 asymptomatic individuals were exposed to asymptomatic SARS-CoV-2 carrier (been positive for SARS-CoV-2) using close contact (shared quarantine space) for a median of 4 to 5 days. The study found that none of the 445 individuals was infected with SARS-CoV-2 confirmed by real-time reverse transcription polymerase [27].

The data suggest that both medical and non-medical facemasks are ineffective to block human-to-human transmission of viral and infectious disease such SARS-CoV-2 and COVID-19"
 
Thanks to the immense effort by this administration to get 200M vaccines in arms, the country is heading in that direction, sooner than later.

On the first day of Beijing Joe's administration, 1.3Million Americans received the vaccine. That day. And vaccinations were just ramping up at that point.

Xiden literally could have stayed in his basement for the first 100 days, done nothing, and we would have gotten to AT LEAST 130 Million Americans vaccinated by day 100.

Congrats Joe, what an incredible effort!
 
OK, walking around in a bubble actually would work, Tim. You don’t even realize that you’ve convinced yourself that Covid is random and nothing can slow it’s spread other than immunity.

Finally, thank you! Thank you for admitting this is a virus, it is random and our preventive measures are failing. Vaccines and herd immunity is the only way we beat this.

Appreciate the concession, manly of you.
 
Now you run around talking about "the science" then you post a Nature.com article.

Imagine this. You're standing outside of a closed door. Inside is a large room teeming with around 100 people, all with full-blown Covid. They are coughing, wheezing, running high fevers, in visibly bad condition. You have to enter and criss-cross the room, zig-zagging from one side to the other, in a slow, measured pace. At each turn, you have to stop and answer a few questions on a notepad, set it down, then cross back the other way. The entire process will take roughly 15-20 minutes. Once you've completed all the tasks and reach the far end of the room, there is another door that you can exit through.

In front of you on a table is a single, unused medical mask.

You have the option to put this on and wear the mask the entire time. Or, you can choose to ignore it, leave it on the table and enter the room without a mask.

Which do you choose?

1619041639614.png
 
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