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THE SYSTEM HAS FAILED

NorthernBlitz said:
I get that this sounds nice to say, but what do you mean?

They're playing to win, but only to win 9 games?

How do we win 13 games with the combination of Kenny / Mitch / Mason? What's the game plan to win the SB with those QBs? WC game was Buffalo. Divisional game would have been Baltimore (because we were the 7th seed). Then we would have had KC (assuming KC beats Houston).

How do you get to the SB with Mason under center? Or do you go back to Kenny? Maybe Mitch?

The reason they aren't getting to and winning SBs isn't because Tomlin hates us. It's because we aren't anywhere close to good enough to competing for playoff success in this AFC. And that's not going to change without getting a very good QB. And that's not happening this season either.
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You may not have been around long enough.

The view often repeated around here that the goal is to win 9 games in order to keep Tomlin's "never having a losing season" intact.
That is what defines a successful season to Tomlin, Rooney.
I believe most are just being facetious with that idea.
If people really believe that then I think they are being silly.

Tomlin wants to win a SB as badly as anyone else, but under his command the job aint getting done.
We can't even win a stinking playoff game.
And like most others, I also believe it's time for someone else to take a shot at it.. 18 years for a HC is a long time. He's had his shot.
 
Hypocycloids said:
You may not have been around long enough.

The view often repeated around here that the goal is to win 9 games in order to keep Tomlin's "never having a losing season" intact.
That is what defines a successful season to Tomlin, Rooney.
I believe most are just being facetious with that idea.
If people really believe that then I think they are being silly.

Tomlin wants to win a SB as badly as anyone else, but under his command the job aint getting done.
We can't even win a stinking playoff game.
And like most others, I also believe it's time for someone else to take a shot at it.. 18 years for a HC is a long time. He's had his shot.
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I expect more from an 18 yr coach. It’s not just the QB position that is holding Coach Tomlin back. When was the last time you felt good about all 5 OL-men ? DL ? On down the various rooms of the team? How confident (fully-not at all) are you with the Sub-coaching ?

I just expect more, call me entitled but i feel justified n my expectations.


Salute the nation
 
Drink IRON City said:
I expect more from an 18 yr coach. It’s not just the QB position that is holding Coach Tomlin back. When was the last time you felt good about all 5 OL-men ? DL ? On down the various rooms of the team? How confident (fully-not at all) are you with the Sub-coaching ?

I just expect more, call me entitled but i feel justified n my expectations.


Salute the nation
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You are an entitled fan for sure. Be careful though. You are teetering in an area where you could lose your Steeler fan card.🙄🤪
 
Coryea said:
I don't think anyone is necessarily complaining we haven't won a Super Bowl recently, how about just be competitive in a playoff game? There are tons of examples of the team with the better QB losing in the playoffs. Yet when it comes to Tomlin that's the new national narrative, well look at who his QB's have been, that's not an excuse to not have won a playoff game in almost 10 seasons.
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I think it would be great to be competitive in a playoff game.

Unfortunately, if you aren't a SB contender in the AFC you're almost certainly going to face Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Burrow, or Stroud in the WC game.

And without a lot of luck / good bounces, you aren't going to beat those guys with below average (to average) QBs.
 
Hypocycloids said:
You may not have been around long enough.

The view often repeated around here that the goal is to win 9 games in order to keep Tomlin's "never having a losing season" intact.
That is what defines a successful season to Tomlin, Rooney.
I believe most are just being facetious with that idea.
If people really believe that then I think they are being silly.

Tomlin wants to win a SB as badly as anyone else, but under his command the job aint getting done.
We can't even win a stinking playoff game.
And like most others, I also believe it's time for someone else to take a shot at it.. 18 years for a HC is a long time. He's had his shot.
Click to expand...
I haven't been on this board long, but I was on the Trib board for about a decade before it shut down. Then Planet Steelers for longer (site is now basically unsuable).

Unsurprisingly, these talking points are the same things that people say elsewhere. They were also the same things people said about Cowher until we got Ben. And while we would often win games in the playoffs because Marty-ball was a better strategy then, those home field AFCC losses were soul-crushing.

I agree that the goal of this team has long been to make the playoffs and hope to catch lightning in a bottle. This was the game plan under BC just like it is under MT. Because it's the Rooney mentality.

And until we get the next very good Steelers QB, I don't see how the ceiling changes from "hope to get lucky in the WC round". We scored a DTD against KC and still got our ***** handed to us.

Because the truth is that this team probably didn't really deserve at least 2 of the last 3 playoff berths we got. It's just that the system we use let's us squeak out more close games than we should. Even though it's generally very boring to watch.
 
Drink IRON City said:
I expect more from an 18 yr coach. It’s not just the QB position that is holding Coach Tomlin back. When was the last time you felt good about all 5 OL-men ? DL ? On down the various rooms of the team? How confident (fully-not at all) are you with the Sub-coaching ?

I just expect more, call me entitled but i feel justified n my expectations.


Salute the nation
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Of course we're entitled. We're fans.

It's just how it is.

And we've been spoiled as Steelers fans.

Imagine being a fan of a team that's routinely out of playoff contention by the bye. There are several teams like that in the conference. One of which is even in our division.

And because the Steelers have cracked the code on being competitive for playoff spots even when the team isn't all that good, we all want more. Because watching the same mediocre season over and over again isn't all that exciting.

This is why I dislike that we're sniffing so hard around Rodgers. I think it's bad cap value. But the thing I dislike about it most is that they're so hell bent on pretending that we can contend. I think it's because this is the thing Rooney does. He's not rich from some other venture. I think he thinks he needs the team to be "consistently competitive".

It will be interesting to see what happens the next time the team gets handed down. Last time I think the inheritance taxes really hurt them. Maybe next time, it forces a sale?
 
NorthernBlitz said:
You also can't win with **** QBs.

We have a scheme that gets us more wins than our talent dictates.

But you can't win this way against good teams with elite QBs.

And since there are so many very high end QBs in the AFC, we're screwed in the playoffs.

That won't change until we have a QB that's above average. Likely well above average.

I'm still hoping that we roll with Mason this year instead of overpaying for Rodgers. I'll be interested to see if Mason continues to throw over the middle like he did in the few games he played replacing Kenny.
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You can’t win consistently with **** QBs-true, but SBs have been won with some damn average ones. Tomlin’s system however requires HOF caliber QB play…that has been proven

I would 100% claim your second statement to be very false. We have a scheme that gets us LESS win than the talent dictates. **** Tomlin had the killer Bs and couldn’t even do ****. Plenty of talent- just an A$$ scheme. The scheme is Tomlin’s and it prevents winning. He is a hurdle to success. Many other coaches would’ve done more with the talent Tomlin has squandered. Can’t blame Tomlin’s **** scheme on the players. He has done less with more talent than he has deserved. COMPLETELY FALSE that he is the reason for not sucking…players have overcome him for years.

You are correct on third statement : Tomlin can’t win with Tomlin’s **** schemes vs elite teams. Been proven over and over and over again.

Don’t kid yourself..it’s not opposing QBs that are the reason we are screwed in the playoffs…that again goes back to Mr. Piss down his leg and retreat in his turtle shell wondering why the players can’t just win in his asinine, archaic, inept scheme against a coach who actually has skills AND guts.

Nothing changes until Tomlin is gone. We could have a HOF QB with the best receiver in the league and a generational RB paired with a phenomenal TE and he’d still mess it up (see Ben, Brown, Bell and Miller).
 
NorthernBlitz said:
I get that this sounds nice to say, but what do you mean?

They're playing to win, but only to win 9 games?

How do we win 13 games with the combination of Kenny / Mitch / Mason? What's the game plan to win the SB with those QBs? WC game was Buffalo. Divisional game would have been Baltimore (because we were the 7th seed). Then we would have had KC (assuming KC beats Houston).

How do you get to the SB with Mason under center? Or do you go back to Kenny? Maybe Mitch?

The reason they aren't getting to and winning SBs isn't because Tomlin hates us. It's because we aren't anywhere close to good enough to competing for playoff success in this AFC. And that's not going to change without getting a very good QB. And that's not happening this season either.
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A non-losing season is called a Tomlinship here at SN.com forums.

Tomlin has 18 in a row, which is astounding to his supporters.

For long time Steeler fans, like most here, not getting a SB is a failure, not getting an AFC championship is disappointing, not winning a Divisional Round Playoff game is below expectations, not winning a WC game is simply not good enough.

It seems to many that the entire goal of the past decade for the Steelers is to have been better than .500, which brings the Tomlinship (similar to stains fans celebrating an undefeated preseason, or bungle fans celebrating a rare regular season division championship) and that sense of long term underwhelming.

The standard is substandard and has been for some time.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
I know that our D is on the field a lot.

But on a good football team, the offense is supposed to play too.


Aside: I was talking about post-Ben injury, not BBB era. But I do think it's worth remembering the guys who was actually suiting up for those playoff games. How many times were the killer Bs on the field together in the playoffs? How did we do in those games? If Reid could have turned injuries off, I think he probably could have gotten us to a SB. Bell was a ******* beast when he was healthy in the playoffs. Sadly, that was very rare.

I've said this multiple times on the site I came from, but I think Tomlin's biggest failure as a coach was totally mishandling the relationship with Blount. Player relationships are supposed to be his super-power. But we rode Bell too hard (as was always the case). And then had no answer when Bell got hurt in the playoffs (against the team Blount went back to).

I'd also like to know how many times Reid's won a playoff game when his offense scores for the other team. I don't think I'll see a better QB in a Steelers uniform than Ben. But he was a very high variance player. He's the reason we won SBs (who else dares to throw that perfect ball to Holmes on 2nd down?). He's also the reason we lost playoff games (DTD in the GB SB...that few remember because we all hate Mendenhall for the fumble, the fumble for DTD in the Jax game, the CLE one wasn't on him...but it was the worst game of his career IMO). QB >>> HC. In the wins. And in the losses.
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Meh.....we play a bend but don't break defense. We play soft and let teams nickel and dime us down the field. That has nothing to do with our Offense.
 
Hypocycloids said:
Tomlin wants to win a SB as badly as anyone else, but under his command the job aint getting done.
Click to expand...

He’s been on two SB championship teams — the 2002 Bucs and 2008 Steelers — both teams with below average offenses and insane defenses. He thinks that is the formula and it’s just not anymore.

To compound the problem, he believes that, especially on defense, you don’t need to scheme to defeat your opponent — just line up and beat your man. A guy like Spagnola could do wonders with this defense, Tomlin watches it get shredded by great offenses every year and his only recourse is to tell them to play better.

These last few years have really exposed what a poor football mind he is, and his ego won’t let him hand off the coordination to his coordinators.

We’re basically f’d until he is gone.
 
Confluence said:
A non-losing season is called a Tomlinship here at SN.com forums.

Tomlin has 18 in a row, which is astounding to his supporters.

For long time Steeler fans, like most here, not getting a SB is a failure, not getting an AFC championship is disappointing, not winning a Divisional Round Playoff game is below expectations, not winning a WC game is simply not good enough.

It seems to many that the entire goal of the past decade for the Steelers is to have been better than .500, which brings the Tomlinship (similar to stains fans celebrating an undefeated preseason, or bungle fans celebrating a rare regular season division championship) and that sense of long term underwhelming.

The standard is substandard and has been for some time.
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And It's not hard to figure out how Tomlinships are made.

You have the divisional games where you split with the Ravens and Bungles. 2 wins
You have the browns, browning. 2 wins
You have games against other divisional bottom feeders. 4 games (Patriots, Indy, Bears, Jets)
You have one game where the Steelers win a game, they have no business winning early in the season (operation provide hope) (Packers)

Maybe pick up a win against a team on the same talent level as the Steelers for a 10 win season. (Chargers, Seahawks)

Mission accomplished.
 
Confluence said:
A non-losing season is called a Tomlinship here at SN.com forums.

Tomlin has 18 in a row, which is astounding to his supporters.

For long time Steeler fans, like most here, not getting a SB is a failure, not getting an AFC championship is disappointing, not winning a Divisional Round Playoff game is below expectations, not winning a WC game is simply not good enough.

It seems to many that the entire goal of the past decade for the Steelers is to have been better than .500, which brings the Tomlinship (similar to stains fans celebrating an undefeated preseason, or bungle fans celebrating a rare regular season division championship) and that sense of long term underwhelming.

The standard is substandard and has been for some time.
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That's pretty funny.

FWIW, in other places I've posted it seemed to me that the "non-losing season" thing is talked about way more by people who don't like Tomlin than by people who think he's an average to above average coach.

Personally, I think the biggest systemic problem we have is that we've been bad at drafting since TJ. And Tomlin wears a fair amount of that (although I'd probably put Colbert higher on the list).

I think I said this up-thread, but I think screwing up the relationship with Blount was his biggest specific mistake. Especially since relationship management with players is his best skill.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
I get that this sounds nice to say, but what do you mean?

They're playing to win, but only to win 9 games?
Click to expand...
What happened last season after they won 10 games?

NorthernBlitz said:
How do we win 13 games with the combination of Kenny / Mitch / Mason? What's the game plan to win the SB with those QBs? WC game was Buffalo. Divisional game would have been Baltimore (because we were the 7th seed). Then we would have had KC (assuming KC beats Houston).
Click to expand...
Kenny and Mitch aren't here any more.
Shades has proven he can win 9 games with Mason and Duck Hodges. You need to get it out of your head that he wants to win championships.
The more important goals now are 1) 200 wins and 2) Tom Landry's record for consecutive non-losing seasons.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
Personally, I think the biggest systemic problem we have is that we've been bad at drafting since TJ. And Tomlin wears a fair amount of that (although I'd probably put Colbert higher on the list).
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Except that Colbert was pretty good at drafting HOF'ers prior to Tomlin being here.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
Can you pick a QB who you think is about as good as Ben for me?

Not someone who's obviously better (I'd argue not Brady or Mahomes). Someone comparable.
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Why? We're talking about Tomlins coaching record. You're making the excuse that he hasn't won the past few years because he's had crappy QB's, and I brought up that he didn't have a crappy QB with Ben and couldn't win. So why would I name another QB that is Ben's caliber. I'm not understanding your post...
 
NorthernBlitz said:
I think it would be great to be competitive in a playoff game.

Unfortunately, if you aren't a SB contender in the AFC you're almost certainly going to face Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Burrow, or Stroud in the WC game.

And without a lot of luck / good bounces, you aren't going to beat those guys with below average (to average) QBs.
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It's funny you put Jackson on the list, because we play them twice a year. And even with subpar QB play, we have beat them 6 of the last 9 games since Ben retired. And that's who we faced in the playoffs. A team we know, a team we play twice a year. And Tomlin decided to play that game COMPLETELY different than any other time we've played them. Had our top OLB crash down on the RB no matter what, and let Jackson run all over us. If you're good enough to get TO the playoffs, you shouldn't get BLOWN out in every playoff game.

And since they want to rest their hat on not having a losing season, instead of doing a true rebuild and deal with a losing season or two, we're consistently drafting late in the first, and the way they have handled the QB position post Ben has been a trainwreck. Saying one thing, doing another, promising this, doing that...

The bottom line is that Mike Tomlin is no longer getting the job done. He still thinks that we are a player or two away from competing for a Super Bowl and we are not. So the constant chasing of these once great QB's, and not focusing on the things that is needed to make the team better is really just leaving us mediocre. Would you have your entire coaching and FO staff skip one of the biggest college pro days before the draft to meet with a 41 year old QB instead? Because that's what they did. They aren't focused on building for the future, they are living in the now, thinking that we are in that Buff, KC range of teams.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
I think it would be great to be competitive in a playoff game.

Unfortunately, if you aren't a SB contender in the AFC you're almost certainly going to face Mahomes, Allen, Jackson, Burrow, or Stroud in the WC game.

And without a lot of luck / good bounces, you aren't going to beat those guys with below average (to average) QBs.
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Back when the Steelers were getting to 3 SB's in 6 years, at no time did they have to face Belicheat and Brady in the playoffs.
Either through a fluke tie-breaker or the Broncos took them out.
Neither Cowher or Tomlin ever beat Belicheat and Brady in a game that mattered.
 
insaniti said:
It's funny you put Jackson on the list, because we play them twice a year. And even with subpar QB play, we have beat them 6 of the last 9 games since Ben retired. And that's who we faced in the playoffs. A team we know, a team we play twice a year. And Tomlin decided to play that game COMPLETELY different than any other time we've played them. Had our top OLB crash down on the RB no matter what, and let Jackson run all over us. If you're good enough to get TO the playoffs, you shouldn't get BLOWN out in every playoff game.
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That's the thing, there's a disconnect somewhere because you'd think a coach who's never had a losing season in 18 years would have more than 3 playoff wins in the last 11 years and none in the last 8.
 
Ron Burgundy said:
That's the thing, there's a disconnect somewhere because you'd think a coach who's never had a losing season in 18 years would have more than 3 playoff wins in the last 11 years and none in the last 8.
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The biggest problem is that Tomlin is laser-focused on what it takes to lose games and spends 24 hours a day planning to minimize those things. He either doesn’t understand what it takes to win games or is too afraid to take on that risk.

Scheme on defense? What if we give up a big play because of a miscommunication or blitz pickup? Spoiler alert, that already happens.

Use the MOF in the passing game? That’s where big plays occur, but also turnovers. Gone.

Change plays at LOS for QB? This is how you beat a D that schemed up the right call, but the Steelers just run into the teeth of it and blame execution, can’t risk confusion.

The final one is more subtle, but we’ve heard Tomlin preach “position flexibility” for a while now. Why? IMO, because it helps minimize injury risk if a guy can play more than one position well. The problem comes when you start drafting and acquiring players who are average at a lot of positions, excellent at none. Quantity over quality.

Helps keep the floor high, but the ceiling low. When you play teams with better talent or equal talent that know how to scheme, you literally have no shot.
 
Ron Burgundy said:
What happened last season after they won 10 games?


Kenny and Mitch aren't here any more.
Shades has proven he can win 9 games with Mason and Duck Hodges. You need to get it out of your head that he wants to win championships.
The more important goals now are 1) 200 wins and 2) Tom Landry's record for consecutive non-losing seasons.
Click to expand...

It's not impossible that he doesn't care at all about things like winning championships and what it would do for his legacy. But I strongly doubt it.

I think it's way more likely that (1) the prime directive of this team is "make the playoffs every year". It was like that for Cowher. It's like that for Tomlin. Maybe because of how bad the team was in the 80s? and (2) the league is more QB centric than it's ever been. We're in the conference that has like 90% of the the above average to elite QBs. And 2 of those guys are in our division.

Pretending that your idea is the Gospel Truth is silly IMO.
 
stillwright said:
Meh.....we play a bend but don't break defense. We play soft and let teams nickel and dime us down the field. That has nothing to do with our Offense.
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I would argue that the fact that our offense is very bad at generating explosive plays (and points) plays a pretty big role in the fact that we design our defense to prevent explosive plays (and points).

Have you ever heard of the TOX stat? It's Turnovers + Explosive plays. The differential in TOX is better at predicting who wins games than turnovers alone. And turnovers are the best single predictor outside of point differential (which obviously predicts flawlessly).

So when you have a team that doesn't generate points and explosive plays, you are forced into playing a defense that can't give up explosive plays. And has to generate turnovers.

I'd like to a couple articles about things like how turnovers (not even differential) really impact win%. But it's not from this site and my understanding is that we don't like outside links here.

My guess is that if we ever have a QB / offense that proves that it can score points again under Tomlin, we'll open things up more. Because the number one rule on this team is "consistently make the playoffs". That's the directive that comes from the front office. And they've been satisfied with that since we hired Cowher. Because they believe that making the playoffs more than other teams will ultimately lead to more SB wins (really revenue is almost certainly the main objective).

People hate Tomlin now, just like they hated Cowher before we drafted Ben. But the mission statement of the team hasn't changed.
 
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