Are Churches and Charities in Trouble?

[ark steel]

I can't believe you don't realize that your analogy is waaay off.The money my employer pays me is NOT considered taxable income to my employer. They don't get taxed on it, give it to me then get taxed on it.Moreover, if I bust my *** earning millions of dollars so my kids never have to work a day in their life, why the **** should anyone else be entitled to it? Especially, when I already paid taxes on most of it.

 

[deljzc]

Where the inheritance tax really hurts is small businesses and family owned farming.

I have worked for small, family owned business my entire adult life. One of their primal fears is how they can pass their business (and keep hiring all the same people) to future generations. Some businesses do well enough that they can spend the thousands of dollars a year to slowly divest stock from one generation to the next, but when the value of your business is the value of the land (like in farming) with very little capital/cash, that is really hard.

One of the reasons small family owned farms are practically gone in this country (and now owned by huge conglomerate farming corporations) is that it is impossible to leave you farm to your children. The taxes just get completely out of hand.

The inheritance tax sounded great in principle when we think of the Rockefellers and Kennedys and the Trumps but the reality is it hurts more than it helps eliminate oligarchies. And that for the most part the ultra wealthy have found ways to beat the system while mom and pop farmers can not.

 

[Superman]

I can't believe you don't realize that your analogy is waaay off.The money my employer pays me is NOT considered taxable income to my employer. They don't get taxed on it, give it to me then get taxed on it.Moreover, if I bust my *** earning millions of dollars so my kids never have to work a day in their life, why the **** should anyone else be entitled to it? Especially, when I already paid taxes on most of it.

keep in mind that rollers was the same guy who wanted to shop around and try to use a groupon when his elderly parent needed emergency medical care.
so, no, he doesn't have a clue.

 

[RollRed]

keep in mind that rollers was the same guy who wanted to shop around and try to use a groupon when his elderly parent needed emergency medical care.
so, no, he doesn't have a clue.

Right ... I’m clueless.... you guys get pissed off because the guy making $15K flipping burgers doesn’t pay federal income tax, bitching about how unfair it is, yet are perfectly okay with some spoiled rich kid getting handed a giant bag full of money, not earning a dime of it himself, and not paying one red cent of taxes on that money. Like I said before, I don’t agree with the government taking half or 40% or whatever it is... it should be taxed at the rate of whatever tax bracket you happen to fall into. So I guess the guy I’m gonna pay $50 this week to cut my grass shouldn’t have to pay any income tax on that money because that $50 came from my paycheck, which was taxed, so technically that $50 has already been taxed so it would be unfair for that same $50 to be taxed twice.... sounds ridiculous right? But, according to you, if I left him that same $50 in my will it would be perfectly fine if he didn’t pay any income tax.... same $50 going to the same person..... only in one instance he worked for it and in the other it was given to him.
But I’m the clueless one ... morons...

 

[IndySteel]

Right ... I’m clueless.... you guys get pissed off because the guy making $15K flipping burgers doesn’t pay federal income tax, bitching about how unfair it is, yet are perfectly okay with some spoiled rich kid getting handed a giant bag full of money, not earning a dime of it himself, and not paying one red cent of taxes on that money. Like I said before, I don’t agree with the government taking half or 40% or whatever it is... it should be taxed at the rate of whatever tax bracket you happen to fall into. So I guess the guy I’m gonna pay $50 this week to cut my grass shouldn’t have to pay any income tax on that money because that $50 came from my paycheck, which was taxed, so technically that $50 has already been taxed so it would be unfair for that same $50 to be taxed twice.... sounds ridiculous right? But, according to you, if I left him that same $50 in my will it would be perfectly fine if he didn’t pay any income tax.... same $50 going to the same person..... only in one instance he worked for it and in the other it was given to him.
But I’m the clueless one ... morons...

You are a GD idiot.

 

[wig]

Look at it this way RollRed.

Suppose you give your kid an allowance, you know for mowing the lawn. Now you pay your kid his allowance out of your pocket. Cause you know - he's your kid. The money you pay him is your money which you earn down at the shop where you work repairing cars. You make a decent wage, but you are taxed each month, like everyone else.

Now... suppose when you want to give your kid his allowance, which you plan on giving him every 2 weeks because he mows your lawn, and takes out the trash and stuff, you have to set aside 15 percent to pay to the government. Cause you know... taxes. Sure... You already paid taxes on that money and you're just giving it to your kid, but hey... that's money that he's being given so shouldn't IT be taxed too?

No? If you don't think so, then you agree that death tax is bullshit. Welcome to Montana. Or wherever else reasonable people live.

The difference between MY lawn-mowing analogy and YOURS is precisely WHO you're having do the lawn-mowing. You are hiring an outside party to do the work. You are contracting somebody else, outside your family. The inheritance example, on the other hand is about already taxed assets that are being given to a designated beneficiary.

What exactly would be the point of investing if the investment firm was going to take another 27% of your principle before they gave it to your beneficiary? Who would even do that? If your investment only made 14% and the investment firm took 27% it would be pretty ******' stupid... You'd almost feel as though you were being ripped off.

 

[Steeltime]

Yes .... the person that earned it was taxed on it. You could say the same thing about any employer that has an employee that he gives a paycheck to every week. The employer earned the money through the operation of his or her business and is now going to give some of that earned money to the employee. Income is income.... why should it not be taxed just because it came from a family member.

As you have already been schooled, an employer's payment of wages to an employee is not taxed, other than the expenses related to workers comp, withholding matching, etc. It is a business expense.

And as to your frankly dumb comment about "paying the gardener" vs. willing the money to a relative, the explanation is as basic as breathing. Spending - use - of the money by an employee does not generate further income taxes on the employee; the economic activity generates a tax obligation on the part of the recipient of the spending. Why? Because that individual is pursuing gainful economic activity and making money, so he needs to contribute to everything that allows him to make that living - roads, courts, police, etc.

If I earn money and save it, with the goal of giving the money to my heirs, I am not pursuing economic activity from the money. I am saving it. However, guess what, sport? The investing generates capital gains, which results in A SECOND ROUND OF TAXES ON THE INCOME.

So then I give my money to my kids. No capital gains. The money is now either saved by my heirs (capital gains) or spent (sales taxes, further taxes on the merchants who earned the business).

The idea that a 3rd or 4th or 5th round of taxes is needed is just sick. Really, it's sick. How much ******* money does the ******* government deserve?

Finally, do you know why the United States dominated economically in the 1980's? And did well in the 1990's? Because our tax rates were much more protective of the income-earners than the tax rates for most of our capitalist competitors. The United States posted better GDP growth, despite our massive starting point, than EU and Asian nations:

 

[Stryker]

I don't understand this argument Steeltime. As a business owner, I pay monthly payroll tax to the IRS for all of my full time employees. Over and above workers comp, et all. It is a double tax on that employee's money, as the employer is taxed on the employee's money first by the IRS when it is paid from the company, then employees have to pay income tax on that same money.

 

[IndySteel]

Regarding the death tax, the point is simple. It's my money. I've already paid taxes on it. I can do whatever I want to with it. I can burn it, flush it down a toilet, invest it, go on vacation with it, spend it on hookers and blow...OR even give it to my family when I die. The government has no right to any of it. It's mine to do with as I please. Period.

 

[ark steel]

I don't understand this argument Steeltime. As a business owner, I pay monthly payroll tax to the IRS for all of my full time employees. Over and above workers comp, et all. It is a double tax on that employee's money, as the employer is taxed on the employee's money first by the IRS when it is paid from the company, then employees have to pay income tax on that same money.

You pay "your share" of the SS tax. Your business does not pay income tax on what you pay the employee. If it does, fire your accountant.

 

[ark steel]

This defines the real problem with tax policy and, overall, income tax.

In my profession, where benefits are based on income, we have pages and pages of tax law and regulations just to define compensation for benefits in the plans. How much waste is generated trying to define income for taxes?

The problem with tax policy is that people don't sit back and logically think, what should be taxed and how much. The decision is made as to how much they want to spend. Then decide how much and what to tax to get there.

In addition, tax policy is used as a means to control and divide people. As roll said, "why should they have this, when soandso can't.

 

[SteelChip]

Look at it this way RollRed.

it would be pretty ******' stupid... .

Red outdoes himself on a regular basis. His posts put me in mind of a meme I saw

https://s-media-cache-ak0.pinimg.com/736x/15/89/27/158927add2eb465ab06b9a2152ae0b19--funny-memes-funny-****.jpg

 

[Steeltime]

I don't understand this argument Steeltime. As a business owner, I pay monthly payroll tax to the IRS for all of my full time employees. Over and above workers comp, et all. It is a double tax on that employee's money, as the employer is taxed on the employee's money first by the IRS when it is paid from the company, then employees have to pay income tax on that same money.

I have my own practice, Cope, with employees. I pay California workers comp, state and Fed withholding, so believe me, I know what you are saying.

But the taxes I pay are derived from my pursuit of further economic gain. I hire and pay the employees to make me more money. I pay a price to the government (taxes, etc.) for that pursuit. I am using the publicly-funded resources to earn my income - police protection, roads, courthouses, etc.

Once I pay the income to the employee, he or she does not pay income tax on the money again. However, when the employee uses the money to purchase a good or service, then the business owner who provides the good or service pays income tax, because once again, that business owner is using public resources to earn a profit and like other business owners, needs to finance the machine that allows the business pursuit to occur.

Compare that to savings. First, an inheritance is just that - savings. The money is available to be distributed to heirs because the person willing the money has saved that money. The money has thereby not been put towards somebody else's pursuit of profit. However, the savings is very beneficial to the economy as it generates investment in other businesses (stocks, bonds), and helps those businesses succeed and hire employees. Second, that financial gain deserves taxation as well and is subject to capital gains. Third, when the money is willed to the heirs, it is once again subject to the same potential taxes when spent (business owner or service provider pays taxes on the money received) or invested (capital gains).

The inheritance tax is just another, 3rd or 4th layer of taxation that is taxing ... nothing. There has been no investment or spending. The tax is just another way for the government to glom onto more of the money they have already taxed at least twice.

 

[21STEELERS21]

When you have a 20 trillion dollar debt you could argue that taxes were not adequate in the past to pay for the government, so did
the extremely wealthy of this generation actually pay adequate taxes. I believe the inheritance tax shouldn't be for government spending,
but rather for retiring the debt. The generations that create the debt should pay inheritance tax and if the debt is greatly reduced someday,
do away with the inheritance tax.

 

[bmoritz]

Right ... I’m clueless.... you guys get pissed off because the guy making $15K flipping burgers doesn’t pay federal income tax, bitching about how unfair it is, yet are perfectly okay with some spoiled rich kid getting handed a giant bag full of money, not earning a dime of it himself, and not paying one red cent of taxes on that money. Like I said before, I don’t agree with the government taking half or 40% or whatever it is... it should be taxed at the rate of whatever tax bracket you happen to fall into. So I guess the guy I’m gonna pay $50 this week to cut my grass shouldn’t have to pay any income tax on that money because that $50 came from my paycheck, which was taxed, so technically that $50 has already been taxed so it would be unfair for that same $50 to be taxed twice.... sounds ridiculous right? But, according to you, if I left him that same $50 in my will it would be perfectly fine if he didn’t pay any income tax.... same $50 going to the same person..... only in one instance he worked for it and in the other it was given to him.
But I’m the clueless one ... morons...

There is a HUGE CLEAR difference between earning a wage and giving a gift. When you leave an inheritance for somebody, THAT IS NOT INCOME. I don't believe you can't actually see this. You're just jealous of "rich" people.

 

[RollRed]

There is a HUGE CLEAR difference between earning a wage and giving a gift. When you leave an inheritance for somebody, THAT IS NOT INCOME. I don't believe you can't actually see this. You're just jealous of "rich" people.

Income is income.... whether it comes from work, the lottery, a casino, found on the side of the road, your parents, the guy across the street, or the man in the moon. It’s money that “comes in” to your household. The origin should have nothing to do with it. If I gotta pay taxes on the money I work for, then you gotta pay them on the money you didn’t work for. I don’t give a **** if Jesus Christ himself laid it on your doorstep on Christmas morning, it’s still income.

 

[IndySteel]

If I gotta pay taxes on the money I work for, then you gotta pay them on the money you didn’t work for. .

And there it is...bitter jealousy in it's full glory.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Why does a Libtard care if churches and charities are in trouble? They hate churches and think government should be the only charity.

 

[RollRed]

Because, you jealous puke, it’s already been taxed. If a person saves his hard earned money and leaves it to his family it should not be taxed Again. The government already got theirs. If you leave your remaining dollar to someone would you expect them to pay tax on it, after you already did?

Okay.... so if the issue is that money being left has already been taxed and therefore shouldn’t be taxed again, the money I make this week installing a kitchen shouldn’t be taxed either since the homeowner is paying me with money he earned and I’m quite certain was taxed on. I’m glad you enlightened me on what money should and shouldn’t be taxed. Yep... the $15K I’m being paid was earned and taxed previously so, according to this jack ***, I shouldn’t have to give the government a nickel of it. And while I’m at it, when I go back to being an employee at my regular job, instead of having the company I work for compensate me with a paycheck every week, I’ll tell them to tell the government the work I do for them is done for free.... that way they can just “gift” me the $800 a week so I won’t have to pay any tax at all.... you know.... since it’s not income if it’s a “gift”.