Are we built to win? A salary cap observation. Its not going to be easy

[SteelerFan448]

We have a franchise quarterback, a steady offensive line (even with injuries), offensive weapons like no other team in the league and a defense that showed signs of growth down the stretch. Yeah, this team is built to win a lot of games.

 

[ark steel]

Please, elaborate. Did Ryan clady play a single snap this season? He tore his acl back in March and was placed on the IR. Has Ryan clady missed time in the past due to injury? In 2013, he came down with a lisfranc foot sprain in week 2 and was placed on the IR. If I'm not mistaken, he also had a bum shoulder the year prior to that missing time in the 2012 season. Obviously, it's not a stretch to say that he's struggled with injuries throughout his career. How did the Broncos fare this past season? Well, they won the ******* super bowl, so I think we'd all agree that it's a pretty desirable outcome. So, in other words, they did just ok contrary to coach's vague generalization that you're going nowhere without a "stud" at the left tackle position.

That Coach says Denver would be dead without a player, yet the player didn't play the whole season? How could that not be funny?

 

[chipped ham]

That Coach says Denver would be dead without a player, yet the player didn't play the whole season? How could that not be funny?

I misinterpreted. My bad. His comment is hilarious, by the way.

 

[Stryker]

LTs top pass rushing OLBs and shut down corners are the highest paid players in the league (next to QBs). This team will sign skill players over stop gaps. Beachum though a good player, would not be worth the value of a new contract if he expects top 10 LT money. The value will be to play Villanueva and expect him to improve next season (which I do). He's still young to the position. He's shown good technique. He has room to improve, and with Munch helping him, I expect him to make a big jump in productivity this upcoming season.

Centers are the ONLY skill position player on the offensive line. They touch the football every play. Possession, timing, ball control, and each play starts with the center. Center also calls the blocking assignments, and when you have an athletic center as we do, they can pull and get to the next level better than all but the top 3 or 4 centers in the league. That is a huge advantage or mismatch. You can help a LT by chipping him with a TE or keeping a RB in to help. If a center goes, the whole line has to change to help the replacement.

Pola and Woodley are now off the books. We have some cap room, and with a few moves, we'll have some more. This will be an exciting year to see how the Steelers improve the D to make it a strength next year for a Superbowl run.

 

[deljzc]

a different espn viewpoint....

http://espn.go.com/blog/pittsburgh-...fls-kings-of-offseason-contract-restructuring

A couple comments about that article:

First, how could they possibly consider ANYONE that worked for the Washington Redskins as part of their salary cap "team" an expert is beyond me. They quote the guy like he's good at something, but the Redskins (probably while this guy worked there) were terrible (TERRIBLE) cap managers.

Second (and this is why I hate the Steelers method of restructuring so much), note the following quote:

"But Timmons has leverage here because his cap number makes him virtually uncuttable."

In general, I have grown over the last decade to not quite be as against "credit card spending" as I first was in 2007-2008. As long as the cap continues to rise pushing money into the future isn't always a bad thing (our government does the same thing btw). But what I do find frustrating is the Steelers often position themselves, through contract restructuring and deciding WHEN to negotiate contracts, into bad positions at the negotiating table.

I just don't find many excuses for why an organization would wait on a contract or restructure a contract that gives huge leverage to the player and his agent to demand more money than he is worth. And I think the Steelers (more so under Colbert/Tomlin) have positioned themselves badly at the table on numerous contracts. If anything, you'd think the example of Antonio Brown, which we negotiated EARLY when the Organization had leverage would teach them. But they continue to now let the new 4-year rookie contracts completely expire before tackling extensions, often under the cloud of a huge salary cap number (either because of the "option year" or one of the franchise tags).

I just don't understand that business model. I think you should only EVER sit at the table to negotiate a contract when you have the upper hand.

I think we should have done a deal with Heyward TWO years ago (not last year). I think we should have done a deal with DeCastro last year (not this year), when his lump sum $8 million contract/cap hit is just sitting on our books. Instead of restructuring Timmons last year, we should have extended Timmons last year.

The Steelers lately have not only been pushing money into the future with restructures, they have forced themselves to push off contract negotiations later and later with rookies and I think exposing themselves for weakness at the negotiating table.

That's just my opinion.

 

[SteelerAl]

The fact they you think a center or a guard is even value to a corner or a pass rusher has me smiling. No name calling needed

Coach, how can you come back into this thread with a straight face after you proved yourself to be completely uniformed with regards to Ryan Clady? [Notice I avoided calling you a name right there, I was tempted to call you an uninformed clown]

I never said that a center or a guard is "even value" to a corner or a pass rusher. If you have the exact same draft grade on a center, guard and pass rusher (and they are all available when you pick), you take the pass rusher every time. My point is that the real world rarely gives you such clear cut options. There are 31 other teams that really want a stud left tackle and a shutdown corner. And you don't seem to understand the truth that it is nearly impossible to acquire "studs" at certain positions in free agency. You can't wave a magic wand and get a shutdown cornerback in free agency just because you'd like one...your options in free agency are more like paying $25 million guaranteed ($63 million total) to the Byron Maxwells of the world.

 

[Coach]

LTs top pass rushing OLBs and shut down corners are the highest paid players in the league (next to QBs). This team will sign skill players over stop gaps. Beachum though a good player, would not be worth the value of a new contract if he expects top 10 LT money. The value will be to play Villanueva and expect him to improve next season (which I do). He's still young to the position. He's shown good technique. He has room to improve, and with Munch helping him, I expect him to make a big jump in productivity this upcoming season.

Centers are the ONLY skill position player on the offensive line. They touch the football every play. Possession, timing, ball control, and each play starts with the center. Center also calls the blocking assignments, and when you have an athletic center as we do, they can pull and get to the next level better than all but the top 3 or 4 centers in the league. That is a huge advantage or mismatch. You can help a LT by chipping him with a TE or keeping a RB in to help. If a center goes, the whole line has to change to help the replacement.

Pola and Woodley are now off the books. We have some cap room, and with a few moves, we'll have some more. This will be an exciting year to see how the Steelers improve the D to make it a strength next year for a Superbowl run.

Centers the only skill position on the offensive line? Wow. I disagree 100% here. Why aren't they paid more then Cope? Why haven't they been drafted as top 10 picks in how many years...?

I'll take two good booked tackles over a good center. And I'd take a good pass rusher or good corner over a center too. The Steelers spent too much on Pouncey, who has had injury issues, off the field issues, and just isn't that dominant to earn what he does when healthy.

Timmons is also overpaid. While he's durable and consistent, he just does not impact the game enough to warrant his very high cap number.

 

[SteelerAl]

I wouldn't say Pouncey has off the field issues. He's never been suspended, his work ethic has never been questioned, he's a leader in the O-line room and liked by his teammates.

 

[Coach]

Coach, how can you come back into this thread with a straight face after you proved yourself to be completely uniformed with regards to Ryan Clady? [Notice I avoided calling you a name right there, I was tempted to call you an uninformed clown]

I never said that a center or a guard is "even value" to a corner or a pass rusher. If you have the exact same draft grade on a center, guard and pass rusher (and they are all available when you pick), you take the pass rusher every time. My point is that the real world rarely gives you such clear cut options. There are 31 other teams that really want a stud left tackle and a shutdown corner. And you don't seem to understand the truth that it is nearly impossible to acquire "studs" at certain positions in free agency. You can't wave a magic wand and get a shutdown cornerback in free agency just because you'd like one...your options in free agency are more like paying $25 million guaranteed ($63 million total) to the Byron Maxwells of the world.

Oh, come on Al. Chipped Ham mentioned Ryan Clady, and based on how angry and negative you sometimes get over nothing, I'm pretty sure you were unaware of that point too. Otherwise, you would have mentioned it. My mistake on Clady, but whomever Denver had at LT clearly was no bum. Teams with bad left tackles see their passing game decline.

Free agency in the real NFL has plenty of options. Very few players get Franchised. I'll list a few DB's and Edge rushers, many of whom would be significant upgrades over Jarvis Jones and Blake.

CB's

Elite
Josh Norman
Janoris Jenkins

Notch below
Prince Amukamara
Casey Hayward
Sean Smith
Pacman Jones
Trumaine Johnson
Patrick Robinson

Serviceable

Leon Hall
Jerraud Powers
Tracy Porter
Terence Newman
Greg Toler
Jeremy Lane



Edge Rushers

Elite
Von Miller
Jason Pierre-Paul
Olivier Vernon
*Greg Hardy
*Aldon Smith
Tamba Hali
Bruce Irvin
William Hayes
Nick Perry
Courtney Upshaw

Still some gas in the tank

Dwight Freeney
Kroy Biermann
Wallace Gilberry
Mike Neal
Junior Galette
Darryl Tapp
Jeremy Mincey

Now's here where you go ape. I'd rather have one of the top guys leaving in free agency CB or Edge over Pouncey. But we allocated too much money on a position that doesn't matter as much. Pouncey was easily replaced one season, and this season we didn't miss him much either. I'd say the same thing for DeCastro if the Steelers gave him 10M a year. I'd rather put the money at the more impactful positions, especially when they are team weak points. Make Sense?

 

[Coach]

I wouldn't say Pouncey has off the field issues. He's never been suspended, his work ethic has never been questioned, he's a leader in the O-line room and liked by his teammates.

He minor off the field issues. He mocked fans saying he was rich and they were not, he whined about the unfair treatment his brother received in Miami, and there was an incident where he was accused of an assault. Let's not forget his public support for a murderer " Free Hernandez "

In my opinion, enough stuff has happened to consider him an off the field risk.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2015/6/28/8859541/mike-pouncey-brother-marukice-looking-to-change-image

 

[ark steel]

My mistake on Clady, but whomever Denver had at LT clearly was no bum. Teams with bad left tackles see their passing game decline

From wikipaedia. Doesn't seem like a stud LT.

Denver Broncos[edit]
Harris playing for the Broncos in 2010.
Harris was drafted by the Denver Broncos as a 3rd round pick (70th overall) in the 2007 NFL draft.[SUP][1][/SUP] In the 2008 season, Harris only allowed 1.5 sacks on QB Jay Cutler.
In the 2009 season, Harris only started and played in 8 games. He dislocated two toes in a game on November 1, 2009. The injury kept him out the rest of season and was placed on Injured Reserve on December 9.
Philadelphia Eagles[edit]
On August 2, 2011, the Philadelphia Eagles signed him to a one-year contract. After undergoing back surgery, Harris was waived/injured on September 3, 2011. He was released with an injury settlement as well.
Second Stint with Broncos[edit]
On January 2, 2012, Harris was signed by the Broncos as an injury replacement for Chris Kuper.
He was released by the Broncos on August 31, 2012 and signed by the Houston Texans on September 1, 2012 to replace an injured Rashad Butler who was lost for the season to injury.
Houston Texans[edit]
The Houston Texans claimed Harris off waivers on September 3, 2012.[SUP][2][/SUP]
He re-signed with the Texans on April 9, 2013.[SUP][3][/SUP]
Kansas City Chiefs[edit]
On July 24, 2014, Harris signed with the Kansas City Chiefs.[SUP][4][5][/SUP]
Third Stint with Denver Broncos[edit]
Harris signed with the Denver Broncos on May 28, 2015. He was signed to replace injured offensive tackle Ryan Clady who was injured on May 28, 2015 due to an ACL tear sustained during the Broncos' OTA's.[SUP][6][/SUP]
Harris was on the Broncos Super Bowl 50 championship team after they beat the Carolina Panthers 24-10.

 

[nitsuj1225]

Oh, come on Al. Chipped Ham mentioned Ryan Clady, and based on how angry and negative you sometimes get over nothing, I'm pretty sure you were unaware of that point too. Otherwise, you would have mentioned it. My mistake on Clady, but whomever Denver had at LT clearly was no bum. Teams with bad left tackles see their passing game decline.

Free agency in the real NFL has plenty of options. Very few players get Franchised. I'll list a few DB's and Edge rushers, many of whom would be significant upgrades over Jarvis Jones and Blake.

CB's

Elite
Josh Norman
Janoris Jenkins

Notch below
Prince Amukamara
Casey Hayward
Sean Smith
Pacman Jones
Trumaine Johnson
Patrick Robinson

Serviceable

Leon Hall
Jerraud Powers
Tracy Porter
Terence Newman
Greg Toler
Jeremy Lane



Edge Rushers

Elite
Von Miller
Jason Pierre-Paul
Olivier Vernon
*Greg Hardy
*Aldon Smith
Tamba Hali
Bruce Irvin
William Hayes
Nick Perry
Courtney Upshaw

Still some gas in the tank

Dwight Freeney
Kroy Biermann
Wallace Gilberry
Mike Neal
Junior Galette
Darryl Tapp
Jeremy Mincey

Now's here where you go ape. I'd rather have one of the top guys leaving in free agency CB or Edge over Pouncey. But we allocated too much money on a position that doesn't matter as much. Pouncey was easily replaced one season, and this season we didn't miss him much either. I'd say the same thing for DeCastro if the Steelers gave him 10M a year. I'd rather put the money at the more impactful positions, especially when they are team weak points. Make Sense?

Pacman would look good in B&G, he wasn't used properly in Cincy.

Talk about the last guy in the league that we would ever bring in to Pittsburgh.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

We're in fine cap shape, compare our position to previous years. Omar Kahn handles his cap allocations that allow for extending key players through moving bonus money into the equation and deferring hits to 2-3 years down the road to keep the team with operational cap room. As was posted earlier in the thread with a few pen strokes we can be 20-25 M under the cap to resign players we feel we need going forward, sign our picks and add a couple value priced free agents. This is standard operating procedure under Kahn/Colbert. Compared to years past we're in great shape and finally through paying Woodley!!!

The key to making the run at 2-3 more SBs in Ben's latter part of his career will be to have a couple solid drafts and not make the Woodley/Allen contract mistakes moving forward. Most importantly will be to stay healthy and reach the playoffs with a majority of our starters on the field.

 

[nitsuj1225]

We're in fine cap shape, compare our position to previous years. Omar Kahn handles his cap allocations that allow for extending key players through moving bonus money into the equation and deferring hits to 2-3 years down the road to keep the team with operational cap room. As was posted earlier in the thread with a few pen strokes we can be 20-25 M under the cap to resign players we feel we need going forward, sign our picks and add a couple value priced free agents. This is standard operating procedure under Kahn/Colbert. Compared to years past we're in great shape and finally through paying Woodley!!!

The key to making the run at 2-3 more SBs in Ben's latter part of his career will be to have a couple solid drafts and not make the Woodley/Allen contract mistakes moving forward. Most importantly will be to stay healthy and reach the playoffs with a majority of our starters on the field.

I agree with this assessment. 2-3 good contributors from the draft and/or free agency and we are the team to beat in the league which should not be that hard to accomplish. Golson coming back also is like an extra pick if he can become a solid contributor. We have the room to add at least 1 through free agency which will put less stress on the draft.

You could argue being healthy is the most important part of winning the SB. With a full squad, it's pretty easy to see we at least make it there last season. Not having AB, Bell and DWill against the Broncos was killer and we STILL almost won. Any combo of those guys are healthy and we go to the SB and probably beat the Panthers. We aren't that far off. Like I said 2-3 solid contributors to fill in the gaps mainly on D and we instantly become the favorites if we aren't already. We have the pieces, keeping our top skill players healthy is the key but that's also a big reason the NFL has more parity than most other sports.

 

[SteelerAl]

Oh, come on Al. Chipped Ham mentioned Ryan Clady, and based on how angry and negative you sometimes get over nothing, I'm pretty sure you were unaware of that point too.

Go back and check the transcript, chief. I immediately told you that you were wrong about Clady and I did it IN ALL CAPS before Chipped Ham brought it up.

 

[black and gold apex]

If we could stay healthy, pick up a descent pass rusher and one descent cover man we are as good as any team out there.

 

[SteelerAl]

He minor off the field issues. He mocked fans saying he was rich and they were not, he whined about the unfair treatment his brother received in Miami, and there was an incident where he was accused of an assault. Let's not forget his public support for a murderer " Free Hernandez "

In my opinion, enough stuff has happened to consider him an off the field risk.

http://www.thephinsider.com/2015/6/28/8859541/mike-pouncey-brother-marukice-looking-to-change-image

Coach, I know about every alleged "incident" involving Pouncey --- you are not breaking any news. It's minor stuff to me. From everything I've ever read, his teammates and coaches think very highly of what he brings to the team in terms of energy and work ethic. I don't consider him any kind of character risk or a locker room problem.

 

[SteelerAl]

Free agency in the real NFL has plenty of options. Very few players get Franchised. I'll list a few DB's and Edge rushers, many of whom would be significant upgrades over Jarvis Jones and Blake.

Oh wow, you mean we don't have a Pro Bowler at all 22 positions, I'm shocked! Every team can upgrade themselves somewhere --- the Broncos were starting perhaps the worst right tackle in the NFL. But there's this thing called a salary cap...ever heard of it Coach?

 

[nitsuj1225]

Oh wow, you mean we don't have a Pro Bowler at all 22 positions, I'm shocked! Every team can upgrade themselves somewhere --- the Broncos were starting perhaps the worst right tackle in the NFL. But there's this thing called a salary cap...ever heard of it Coach?

That doesn't mean those weaknesses can't be identified and improved upon. I think that's all Coach is trying to do. I don't agree with everything he says but he has the right intentions with this one.

 

[SteelerAl]

That doesn't mean those weaknesses can't be identified and improved upon. I think that's all Coach is trying to do. I don't agree with everything he says but he has the right intentions with this one.

So you're saying he wasted everyone's time when he just could have said "we really need to upgrade both Antwaan Blake and Jarvis Jones" like he's already said 250 times?

 

[Coach]

Coach, I know about every alleged "incident" involving Pouncey --- you are not breaking any news. It's minor stuff to me. From everything I've ever read, his teammates and coaches think very highly of what he brings to the team in terms of energy and work ethic. I don't consider him any kind of character risk or a locker room problem.

Al,

Stop acting like your his agent. Minor stuff is just one incident. Poucney has had several. You don't know him, and its not like team mates speak out to the media on who they like and dislike. Sure his engery level is good, but his durability is not.

 

[Coach]

Oh wow, you mean we don't have a Pro Bowler at all 22 positions, I'm shocked! Every team can upgrade themselves somewhere --- the Broncos were starting perhaps the worst right tackle in the NFL. But there's this thing called a salary cap...ever heard of it Coach?

Dude,

Now you''re moving the bar. You said,

My point is that the real world rarely gives you such clear cut options.

I showed you a list of quality free agents, quite a few of which will be on new teams. AKA options Al! Too bad we tied up a lot of money in the less than essential positions and do not have the cap space to take advantage of these options..

But to be clear, Al do you think Center and Inside linebacker are more important that a #1 Corner and #1 Pass Rusher? I say hell no, hence the point of the thread the way the Steelers spent their money is not the best way to be built.

You can also say if you think yer boy Pouncey is worth his cap number. Is he? This out to be fun : ) I'll double down and say you lack the b@lls to answer these questions point blank.

 

[Hines57]

Just shake my head when the internet GMs want to **** talk Pouncey because of his contract. If you can't see the difference between having Pouncey in the middle v a hack jobber then you're lost. Trying to assign a $ amount to a position because that's where you want it to be isn't going to work. The game has changed, the cap keeps rising so there's more money to go around to each position. We've seen through our draft misses that finding top tier talent is tough business. When you have a top tier talent you pay to keep them in the organization or you're right back where you started looking for more talent.

This whole bullshit about where money going means nothing. The team has always been built through the draft and we've grabbed a guy here or there UFA who can step in and help along the way. We've had misses with our draft picks that have set back our defense. I don't have to name names, we know who those players are. On the flip side we've been more fortunate on the offensive side of the ball to draft WRs who have flourished as well as some OL that has been serviceable. We need to have our defensive draft picks be rock stars for our defense to get back to the level it was a decade ago or we will have to more heavily rely on our offense to put us in a championship position. That's where we've been recently.

 

[nitsuj1225]

So you're saying he wasted everyone's time when he just could have said "we really need to upgrade both Antwaan Blake and Jarvis Jones" like he's already said 250 times?

Haha, well that's a separate topic...

 

[SteelerAl]

Dude,

Now you''re moving the bar. You said,

I showed you a list of quality free agents, quite a few of which will be on new teams. AKA options Al! Too bad we tied up a lot of money in the less than essential positions and do not have the cap space to take advantage of these options..

But to be clear, Al do you think Center and Inside linebacker are more important that a #1 Corner and #1 Pass Rusher? I say hell no, hence the point of the thread the way the Steelers spent their money is not the best way to be built.

You can also say if you think yer boy Pouncey is worth his cap number. Is he? This out to be fun : ) I'll double down and say you lack the b@lls to answer these questions point blank.

You're completely missing the point. #1 corners and #1 pass rushers don't come in free agency. Guys like Byron Maxwell come in free agency at an incredible price tag. When we extended Pouncey, we weren't choosing him over a #1 corner or #1 pass rusher. We were retaining the best center in the NFL rather than spending even more money on a guy like Maxwell (who is probably somewhere in the 30s in terms of best CBs in the NFL).