Benjamin or Dennard

[skialta]

Tyler Eifert's NFL draft profile last year:

Weaknesses
Lean receiver-like build. Does not play with consistent explosiveness and leverage when blocking in-line, will get pulled down by NFL ends and miss reach-blocks against quicker ends. Still growing as a blocker and needs to use better angles. Stronger linebackers will rip off his blocks and ride him off his route when he does not use his hands effectively. Allows throws into his body on occasion, will drop the ball when trying to run before securing.

What about this analysis suggest that Eifert was a 'strong blocker'?

Ebron's drop rate is much higher than I realized, but he makes several really difficult amazing catches which tells me its more a matter of concentration...

All I am saying is that all of you who were comfortable drafting Eifert last year should have no problem with Ebron at 1.15

having dennard there and after going through a season where we COULD NOT get a turnover are what makes me want him as opposed to a TE

 

[skialta]

This is the argument I dont get... Why we HAVE to get a DB in the 1st

1.) We are probably drafting 2 CB's, so do you have to invest in one in the first round?

if we have to get one...wtf can't we get the BEST one?

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

if we have to get one...wtf can't we get the BEST one?

Once again, I dont disagree. Dennard in the first is hard to argue against.

But I have seen wayyy too many mocks with us grabbing Roby, fuller etc. in the FIRST! Just because said writer thinks that we HAVE to grab a CB in the first.

 

[Hines57]

This is the argument I dont get... Why we HAVE to get a DB in the 1st

1.) We are probably drafting 2 CB's, so do you have to invest in one in the first round?
2.) The front 7 is as important as anything, so why isnt Mosley even an option?
3.) The passing defense was actually top 10 last year and got better with Mike Mitchell
4.) In fact, total defense was ranked 12th vs. our offense ranked 20th. So why completely ignore a top receiver or linemen in the 1st?

If you can take a day 1 impact player with your first round pick at the position you are most in need of, you take the guy. Trading down has benefits for plugging holes but you are more likely to miss on someone if you do that. Ike Taylor is not a #1 corner anymore. We absolutely need a #1 corner in this league to win a championship given we will have to play v the *Pats or Donkeys in the playoffs with those spread offenses.

 

[skialta]

****...at least it's not Nix i guess. that made me cringe the more i read it

 

[TMC]

If Ebron was compared to Eifert, IMO, there really is not a comparison at all. Here are the combine/workout numbers for both players; Eifert was 6054, 250 pounds. He ran a 4.65 forty, benched 225-22 times, had a VJ of 35.5" and ran a shuttle of 4.32. Ebron was 6043, 250 pounds. He ran a 4.60. He benched 225-24 times. He had a VJ of 32" and did not run the shuttle.

So, Eifert is taller, bigger framed and ran within 0.05 seconds. Ebron benched 2 more times and fell short in the VJ by 3". Pretty much a wash. Now, not sure where the weakness as a blocker comes in. Did he struggle with his reach blocks? Maybe. Reach blocks are some of the hardest to do and Ebron does not even attempt them. Angles was his weakness, but he showed good tenacity and the ability to stick on a lot of blocks. Ebron does not. He will fire off and make the initial pop (in instances where he tries to block) and then can get shed pretty quickly. He is not sticky as a blocker, bends at the waist, and just has poor technique. And, that is when he gives the effort. When he appears to be lazy with it, he will pop right up and give up his leverage, getting driven back into the backfield. Eifert may be beaten by speed or have a better end work him, but Ebron gets blown up and even when he tries, he gets worked. He has much further to go as a blocker.

As a receiver, Ebron has a bigger catch radius, but he is not all that in the speed/agility area when compared to Eifert. Eifert was pretty damn good at high pointing passes down the field and made good adjustments in the air. I would give the edge to Ebron there as he can make some acrobatic catches, but not as great as many want you to believe. Furthermore, in the last draft, Eifert had the best hands of ALL the TEs with a drop percentage of only 5.26% and on throws over 20 yards, he did not have a drop of a catchable pass all season. Only Keenan Allen had a lower drop percentage for all TEs and WRs. Ebron, as stated above, had a drop percentage of 11.43%. To me, I want the TE that might be a little less acrobatic and athletic but catches the damn football.

And, while many tout Ebron's versatility, Eifert lined up inline 20.57% of the time, in the slot 34.29% of the time, and outside 45.14% of the time. He showed just as much versatility.

To me, not even a contest that Eifert was a better prospect.

Back to the topic of the thread, if given the choice between Dennard and Benjamin, not even a question for me, I take Dennard.

 

[steelerscotty]

If we get a TE we need one that will block too . . .

 

[Vader]

Also, where are you reading that Ebron "cant catch"? Knock him for his ability to block- but saying he has no hands? c'mon breh..

I'm going to assume that you've seen the answer to this by now. He dropped the first 3 passes at his pro-day. And as has been said, he had over an 11% drop rate. So why draft a TE at 15th overall that can't catch and has issues blocking. It makes no sense. It's about quality for me. Is he worth that pick? Not in my opinion. I'd much rather have Dennard or even trading down.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

If Ebron was compared to Eifert, IMO, there really is not a comparison at all. Here are the combine/workout numbers for both players; Eifert was 6054, 250 pounds. He ran a 4.65 forty, benched 225-22 times, had a VJ of 35.5" and ran a shuttle of 4.32. Ebron was 6043, 250 pounds. He ran a 4.60. He benched 225-24 times. He had a VJ of 32" and did not run the shuttle.

So, Eifert is taller, bigger framed and ran within 0.05 seconds. Ebron benched 2 more times and fell short in the VJ by 3". Pretty much a wash. Now, not sure where the weakness as a blocker comes in. Did he struggle with his reach blocks? Maybe. Reach blocks are some of the hardest to do and Ebron does not even attempt them. Angles was his weakness, but he showed good tenacity and the ability to stick on a lot of blocks. Ebron does not. He will fire off and make the initial pop (in instances where he tries to block) and then can get shed pretty quickly. He is not sticky as a blocker, bends at the waist, and just has poor technique. And, that is when he gives the effort. When he appears to be lazy with it, he will pop right up and give up his leverage, getting driven back into the backfield. Eifert may be beaten by speed or have a better end work him, but Ebron gets blown up and even when he tries, he gets worked. He has much further to go as a blocker.

As a receiver, Ebron has a bigger catch radius, but he is not all that in the speed/agility area when compared to Eifert. Eifert was pretty damn good at high pointing passes down the field and made good adjustments in the air. I would give the edge to Ebron there as he can make some acrobatic catches, but not as great as many want you to believe. Furthermore, in the last draft, Eifert had the best hands of ALL the TEs with a drop percentage of only 5.26% and on throws over 20 yards, he did not have a drop of a catchable pass all season. Only Keenan Allen had a lower drop percentage for all TEs and WRs. Ebron, as stated above, had a drop percentage of 11.43%. To me, I want the TE that might be a little less acrobatic and athletic but catches the damn football.

And, while many tout Ebron's versatility, Eifert lined up inline 20.57% of the time, in the slot 34.29% of the time, and outside 45.14% of the time. He showed just as much versatility.

To me, not even a contest that Eifert was a better prospect.

Back to the topic of the thread, if given the choice between Dennard and Benjamin, not even a question for me, I take Dennard.

I get that this is your opinion, but you are a little off.

First- Eifert may be taller but he is much leaner than Ebron. You can even see in pictures how much stronger Ebron looks compared to Ebron. Yet Ebron plays much more explosive on game tape and is a much more dangerous threat with YAC.

Also, Eifert's game was compared to Greg Olsen and Heath Millers. Where many are saying Ebron's ceiling is somewhere right under Vernon Davis. I'm sorry, but I would rather take a Vernon Davis over Heath any day.

But to say that the comparison is not even close is asinine.

 

[Litos]

What good is it that Ebron looks stronger than Eifert if he still sucks at blocking?

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

What good is it that Ebron looks stronger than Eifert if he still sucks at blocking?

Because they both are below average at blocking- but you can coach them up.

Do you value strength whilst blocking?

 

[Litos]

I value effort and instincts as much as strength. Eifert is definitly the better blocker and there's no questions about it

 

[TMC]

I get that this is your opinion, but you are a little off.

First- Eifert may be taller but he is much leaner than Ebron. You can even see in pictures how much stronger Ebron looks compared to Ebron. Yet Ebron plays much more explosive on game tape and is a much more dangerous threat with YAC.

Also, Eifert's game was compared to Greg Olsen and Heath Millers. Where many are saying Ebron's ceiling is somewhere right under Vernon Davis. I'm sorry, but I would rather take a Vernon Davis over Heath any day.

But to say that the comparison is not even close is asinine.

WHAT? Are you stating that official heights and weights be damned, Ebron visually appears bigger and stronger? VISUALLY? Because you can see it in pictures? I have heard it ******* all now.

And, are you really using who the players are being compared to? Just FYI, Heath Miller started as a rookie and was very productive. Vernon Davis took three years to develop and did not top 509 yards in a season while they waited. In fact, Mike Singletary was all up in his *** waiting for him to develop. But, hey, with all the weapons we have on offense, we can wait.

What is asinine is you stating one guy is stronger because you can see it in pictures.

 

[TMC]

Dang, did not know why I did not see this sooner, just looked at the photos of the bulked up Ebron, he is so massive he cannot get his hands together.

That explains his high drop rate.

If I had only looked at the photos sooner. Hopefully the team that drafts him can move some of that muscle from the front to the back to allow him to get his hands together better and fix this issue.

 

[mightyguru]

Dennard in that scenario.

 

[FAB802]

Dennard. We may need a TE, but we need a corner a lot more. He can cover, his speed was good enough and he will tackle.

 

[Hineswardkickedurpanzyass]

Damn, someone pissed off TMC, and did someone say they would rather have v Davis than Heath? Pure blasphemy. I will take a 78 year old Heath that wants to win over any other TE in the league. Dude is that good.

 

[keslerclan]

Eifert and Gresham combined for 85 catches and 6 TDs last year. Our injury riddled group of TEs scored 1 TD. Miller did not look like himself either blocking or catching BUT that doesn't mean I want Ebron ANYWHERE in the draft. Ebron is not 'head and shoulders' above the next 5 TEs in this draft. We can get better back-up TEs than what we have had later.

We NEED a CB badly. Whether it be Dennard, Gilbert or Fuller...we need a top prospect in this draft at CB. Right now we can settle for 'depth' at TE, IMO, we cannot settle for 'depth' at CB. We don't even have 2 decided 'starters'.

 

[steelbush]

Why waste a #1 pick on Denard? He isnt going to start over Ike or Cortez, just isnt going to happen. Will he start next year, maybe? This team, IMO, needs a first round pick that can contribute now. I think for our needs Gilbert, Mike Evans, and an OT (Lewan or Matthews) are the players that can contribute now although unlikely they will be there (maybe one of the OT). That leaves us with (now this is my opinion) the second level guys such as Denard, Benjamin, Beckham, etc. I think we could trade down a few spots, pick up another pick, and still get a quality player although probably not a starter. I'm very intrigued by Shazier (OSU guy) and Dee Ford. I've heard Shazir may not be there at 1.15 either. I just think Denard is a huge stretch at 1.15. From what I have watched on tape I just dont see it. I would be happy with Denard later in round 1 but not at 1.15.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

WHAT? Are you stating that official heights and weights be damned, Ebron visually appears bigger and stronger? VISUALLY? Because you can see it in pictures? I have heard it ******* all now.

And, are you really using who the players are being compared to? Just FYI, Heath Miller started as a rookie and was very productive. Vernon Davis took three years to develop and did not top 509 yards in a season while they waited. In fact, Mike Singletary was all up in his *** waiting for him to develop. But, hey, with all the weapons we have on offense, we can wait.

What is asinine is you stating one guy is stronger because you can see it in pictures.

Breh what the hell are you talking about?

They both came in weighing the same, albeit, Eifert is 2 inches taller.

I will give you a second to think about whether that would make him either a.) leaner b.)bulkier than someone his same weight and 2 inches shorter haha

 

[TMC]

Breh what the hell are you talking about?

They both came in weighing the same, albeit, Eifert is 2 inches taller.

I will give you a second to think about whether that would make him either a.) leaner b.)bulkier than someone his same weight and 2 inches shorter haha

Eifert was 6054, 250 pounds and Ebron was 6043, 250 pounds. So, the difference between 6054 and 6043 is two inches?

Is that what you are selling? How about the idea that they threw the bar up a grand total of 2 reps different than each other. Would that not be a better indicator of their damn near similar power than looking at a photo? What was the statement again...."You can even see in pictures how much stronger Ebron looks compared to Ebron."

The simple facts are, they are one inch different in height, the exact same weight, and damn near the same in every measured category at the combine. Ebron is slightly better as an athlete but Eifert is VASTLY better as a football player. Not only is he more sure handed, he blocks better as well. Better receiver, better blocker, better tight end.

But, Ebron looks good in photos. haha.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

Eifert was 6054, 250 pounds and Ebron was 6043, 250 pounds. So, the difference between 6054 and 6043 is two inches?

Is that what you are selling? How about the idea that they threw the bar up a grand total of 2 reps different than each other. Would that not be a better indicator of their damn near similar power than looking at a photo? What was the statement again...."You can even see in pictures how much stronger Ebron looks compared to Ebron."

The simple facts are, they are one inch different in height, the exact same weight, and damn near the same in every measured category at the combine. Ebron is slightly better as an athlete but Eifert is VASTLY better as a football player. Not only is he more sure handed, he blocks better as well. Better receiver, better blocker, better tight end.

But, Ebron looks good in photos. haha.

Actually you were the one claiming that Eifert has a "much bigger frame" when that is just flat out wrong. He is taller yes, but also very lean, which was the knock on him. But yea- keep on whining about my 'pictures' comment (guess you never heard of the 'eye test')

And although you may have had a man crush on Eifert, no one last year was touting him as a strong blocker. Willing? Sure, maybe I can give you that. Strong? Absolutely not.

And also, if i am not mistaken, the only combine event that Eifert had on Ebron was the VJ (32 vs 35). Ebron had more reps, was faster in the 40, and had a better broad jump... I wouldn't necessarily call that a wash lol.

Eifert is much better than Ebron? hahaha c'mon breh. Stop it.

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

And honestly, I am not even 100% all in on Ebron!

But if the 2 corners are gone along with Evans- I want either Mosley or Ebron.

Best believe if we dont grab him, the Rats will. And I believe Mosley at least has the ability to cover the hybrid TE's of the world..

 

[TMC]

Actually you were the one claiming that Eifert has a "much bigger frame" when that is just flat out wrong. He is taller yes, but also very lean, which was the knock on him. But yea- keep on whining about my 'pictures' comment (guess you never heard of the 'eye test')

And although you may have had a man crush on Eifert, no one last year was touting him as a strong blocker. Willing? Sure, maybe I can give you that. Strong? Absolutely not.

And also, if i am not mistaken, the only combine event that Eifert had on Ebron was the VJ (32 vs 35). Ebron had more reps, was faster in the 40, and had a better broad jump... I wouldn't necessarily call that a wash lol.

Eifert is much better than Ebron? hahaha c'mon breh. Stop it.

Yeah, there is the "eye test" to see if a guy looks the part, but nobody measures strength with an eye test.

No one touted him as a good blocker? Really?
http://www.profootballweekly.com/2013/02/22/tyler-eiferts-improved-blocking-has-draft-stock-ri

When asked if he wanted to be a complete tight end like the Steelers' Heath Miller, Eifert quickly stated "that's the goal,” adding that he is proud of the hard work he did to overhaul his blocking technique.

Eifert's blocking opened up Notre Dame's offense during its BCS National Championship run, as his increased physicality helped pace the running game for NFL RB prospects, Cierre Wood and Theo Riddick.

http://nfl.si.com/2013/05/17/tyler-eifert-bengals-pairing-could-be-mutually-beneficial/
Eifert also spent time lined up as a traditional tight end, next to Notre Dame’s outside tackles. He is more than capable as a blocker — another reason he could pair well with Gresham, whom Pro Football Focus graded out as the Bengals’ second-worst run blocker in 2012..
He’s the type of do-everything tight end that the league covets right now, somewhat cut from the Rob Gronkowski mold. Eifert may not be quite the masher that Gronkowski is at the line and he’s still developing as a blocker, but the potential is there for Cincinnati to employ Eifert and Gresham in a similar way to New England’s two tight end look — the Patriots ask Gronkowski to do a lot more blocking than people may realize, allowing Hernandez to float.

Eifert won't create a lot of separation, but he's a better blocker than given credit and one of the best at using his body aggresively to finish contested catches.-Dane Brugler, NFLDraftScout.com

+

http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/draft/players/archive/1664437
Eifert improved significantly as a run-blocker as a senior and now ranks among the better blockers at the position in this draft class. His most impressive traits, however, remain his vacuum hands and body control.

Yeah, nobody touted his blocking.

Maybe if Ebron would have competed in all the events, there would be more information. So, you have to go to Ebron's pro day to see the other numbers. In the short shuttle, Ebron ran a 4.57. Eifert ran a 4.32. In the 3-cone, Ebron ran a 7.49 while Eifert ran a 6.92. Giggle, giggle, snort, snort.....a wash.

Much better. Who wants a TE with a case of the dropsies? Oh, wait, you do.

 

[TMC]

Apparently, either I need moderator approval to post or posts with links need moderator approval. If that is the case, I am not chasing links again. In essence, there were various links where people talked about how good Eifert's blocking was. Some even stated he would be used in Cincy like Gronk was in NE. One called him one of the better blocking TEs in the draft. But, again, not hunting them up (if this even posts).

I never stated Eifert had a "much" bigger frame, just a bigger frame. Not by much, but bigger, but hey, we can call that 1" a wash. You point towards the combine numbers but leave out the cone and shuttle? Why? Well, because Ebron ran those at his pro day and he ran @4.56 in the cone and a 7 something in the shuttle. Eifert ran a 4.32 and 6.92, beating his times easily. So, while Ebron benched 2 more times and ran 0.05 better in a straight line, Eifert was the better leaper and showed better change of direction.

Again, better blocker, better hands, more reliable. Eifert was a better TE prospect.

And, I do laugh at the man crush with Eifert when I also stated I would have rather had Xavier Rhodes or Desmond Trufant over Jarvis Jones. Those statements came when the board unfolded, not a month prior. You did not see me pimping Eifert a month before the draft, talking about him being the 2nd coming of Vernon Davis. Man crush or just a little puppy love?