I am going to this this - for the fourth time on this forum and you can search my comments from months and years ago to confirm - of course I believe that man-made CO2 is a greenhouse gas, and has an effect on the environment.
The point is that I am completely unwilling to abandon the most efficient and cheapest source of energy - fossil fuel - where China and India say @#$% you to such changes, based on predictions that are demonstrably incorrect, and where the "mandate" for change was predicated on the IPCC prediction of an increase in temperature of 6 degrees C over the next century.
In point of goddamn fact, the IPCC acknowledges that an increase in temperature of 1 degree C due to AGW would not mandate these massive and expensive changes.
So for the fourth time ... until a computer model can accurately predict what will happen to global temperatures over the next 25, 50 and 75 years, with the US spending trillions on alternative energy while Asia and Africa say **** you and continue to pump out CO2, then I am not going to support these massive changes in our energy policy for our nation.
Additionally, one of the leading UN climate change officials specifically admitted that the IPCC policies were about wealth redistribution:
(OTTMAR EDENHOFER, UN IPCC OFFICIAL): First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must
say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world's wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this.
One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
http://www.azquotes.com/author/30831-Ottmar_Edenhofer
So you have no issue with the IPCC specifically admitting that climate policy is about "wealth redistribution"? That's not from me, dude, that is from a leading IPCC panel member.
For God's sake steeltime, can you make my point about conspiracy types any clearer? First of all I'm not going to go round and round with you on this subject because we've discussed it ad nauseam over the last few years. What I am going to do is point out how in this thread you are mocking pop for his nutty beliefs, yet you hold beliefs that are just as nutty.
You mention "wealth redistribution" because this is one of several CONservative buzz terms for socialism and or communism. So in that vein you believe that socialist/communist scientists and academics are involved in a worldwide plot against capitalism, and that ALL these people march in lockstep. They control all the organizations that i'll show below, and they never suffer from defectors or whistle blowers(just like pop's 911 government plotters).
https://www.opr.ca.gov/s_listoforganizations.php
Academia Chilena de Ciencias, Chile
Academia das Ciencias de Lisboa, Portugal
Academia de Ciencias de la República Dominicana
Academia de Ciencias Físicas, Matemáticas y Naturales de Venezuela
Academia de Ciencias Medicas, Fisicas y Naturales de Guatemala
Academia Mexicana de Ciencias,Mexico
Academia Nacional de Ciencias de Bolivia
Academia Nacional de Ciencias del Peru
Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
Académie des Sciences, France
Academies of Arts, Humanities and Sciences of Canada
Academy of Athens
Academy of Science of Mozambique
Academy of Science of South Africa
Academy of Sciences for the Developing World (TWAS)
Academy of Sciences Malaysia
Academy of Sciences of Moldova
Academy of Sciences of the Czech Republic
Academy of Sciences of the Islamic Republic of Iran
Academy of Scientific Research and Technology, Egypt
Academy of the Royal Society of New Zealand
Accademia Nazionale dei Lincei, Italy
Africa Centre for Climate and Earth Systems Science
African Academy of Sciences
Albanian Academy of Sciences
Amazon Environmental Research Institute
American Academy of Pediatrics
American Anthropological Association
American Association for the Advancement of Science
American Association of State Climatologists (AASC)
American Association of Wildlife Veterinarians
American Astronomical Society
American Chemical Society
American College of Preventive Medicine
American Fisheries Society
American Geophysical Union
American Institute of Biological Sciences
American Institute of Physics
American Meteorological Society
American Physical Society
American Public Health Association
American Quaternary Association
American Society for Microbiology
American Society of Agronomy
American Society of Civil Engineers
American Society of Plant Biologists
American Statistical Association
Association of Ecosystem Research Centers
Australian Academy of Science
Australian Bureau of Meteorology
Australian Coral Reef Society
Australian Institute of Marine Science
Australian Institute of Physics
Australian Marine Sciences Association
Australian Medical Association
Australian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Bangladesh Academy of Sciences
Botanical Society of America
Brazilian Academy of Sciences
British Antarctic Survey
Bulgarian Academy of Sciences
California Academy of Sciences
Cameroon Academy of Sciences
Canadian Association of Physicists
Canadian Foundation for Climate and Atmospheric Sciences
Canadian Geophysical Union
Canadian Meteorological and Oceanographic Society
Canadian Society of Soil Science
Canadian Society of Zoologists
Caribbean Academy of Sciences views
Center for International Forestry Research
Chinese Academy of Sciences
Colombian Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences
Commonwealth Scientific and Industrial Research Organization (CSIRO) (Australia)
Consultative Group on International Agricultural Research
Croatian Academy of Arts and Sciences
Crop Science Society of America
Cuban Academy of Sciences
Delegation of the Finnish Academies of Science and Letters
Ecological Society of America
Ecological Society of Australia
Environmental Protection Agency
European Academy of Sciences and Arts
European Federation of Geologists
European Geosciences Union
European Physical Society
European Science Foundation
Federation of American Scientists
French Academy of Sciences
Geological Society of America
Geological Society of Australia
Geological Society of London
Georgian Academy of Sciences
German Academy of Natural Scientists Leopoldina
Ghana Academy of Arts and Sciences
Indian National Science Academy
Indonesian Academy of Sciences
Institute of Ecology and Environmental Management
Institute of Marine Engineering, Science and Technology
Institute of Professional Engineers New Zealand
Institution of Mechanical Engineers, UK
InterAcademy Council
International Alliance of Research Universities
International Arctic Science Committee
International Association for Great Lakes Research
International Council for Science
International Council of Academies of Engineering and Technological Sciences
International Research Institute for Climate and Society
International Union for Quaternary Research
International Union of Geodesy and Geophysics
International Union of Pure and Applied Physics
Islamic World Academy of Sciences
Israel Academy of Sciences and Humanities
Kenya National Academy of Sciences
Korean Academy of Science and Technology
Kosovo Academy of Sciences and Arts
l'Académie des Sciences et Techniques du Sénégal
Latin American Academy of Sciences
Latvian Academy of Sciences
Lithuanian Academy of Sciences
Madagascar National Academy of Arts, Letters, and Sciences
Mauritius Academy of Science and Technology
Montenegrin Academy of Sciences and Arts
National Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences, Argentina
National Academy of Sciences of Armenia
National Academy of Sciences of the Kyrgyz Republic
National Academy of Sciences, Sri Lanka
National Academy of Sciences, United States of America
National Aeronautics and Space Administration
National Association of Geoscience Teachers
National Association of State Foresters
National Center for Atmospheric Research
National Council of Engineers Australia
National Institute of Water & Atmospheric Research, New Zealand
National Oceanic and Atmospheric Administration
National Research Council
National Science Foundation
Natural England
Natural Environment Research Council, UK
Natural Science Collections Alliance
Network of African Science Academies
New York Academy of Sciences
Nicaraguan Academy of Sciences
Nigerian Academy of Sciences
Norwegian Academy of Sciences and Letters
Oklahoma Climatological Survey
Organization of Biological Field Stations
Pakistan Academy of Sciences
Palestine Academy for Science and Technology
Pew Center on Global Climate Change
Polish Academy of Sciences
Romanian Academy
Royal Academies for Science and the Arts of Belgium
Royal Academy of Exact, Physical and Natural Sciences of Spain
Royal Astronomical Society, UK
Royal Danish Academy of Sciences and Letters
Royal Irish Academy
Royal Meteorological Society (UK)
Royal Netherlands Academy of Arts and Sciences
Royal Netherlands Institute for Sea Research
Royal Scientific Society of Jordan
Royal Society of Canada
Royal Society of Chemistry, UK
Royal Society of the United Kingdom
Royal Swedish Academy of Sciences
Russian Academy of Sciences
Science and Technology, Australia
Science Council of Japan
Scientific Committee on Antarctic Research
Scientific Committee on Solar-Terrestrial Physics
Scripps Institution of Oceanography
Serbian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Slovak Academy of Sciences
Slovenian Academy of Sciences and Arts
Society for Ecological Restoration International
Society for Industrial and Applied Mathematics
Society of American Foresters
Society of Biology (UK)
Society of Systematic Biologists
Soil Science Society of America
Sudan Academy of Sciences
Sudanese National Academy of Science
Tanzania Academy of Sciences
The Wildlife Society (international)
Turkish Academy of Sciences
Uganda National Academy of Sciences
Union of German Academies of Sciences and Humanities
United Nations Intergovernmental Panel on Climate Change
University Corporation for Atmospheric Research
Woods Hole Oceanographic Institution
World Association of Zoos and Aquariums
World Federation of Public Health Associations
World Forestry Congress
World Health Organization
World Meteorological Organization
Zambia Academy of Sciences
Zimbabwe Academy of Sciences
ALL of these organizations and ALL of its members are involved in this conspiracy to destroy capitalism.......right pop...errrr.....steeltime?
And of course you mention Edenhoffer(whom we've also discussed before) without EVEN THINKING for a second how nutty you sound. It's the equivalent of pop not thinking for a second that steel gets hot, weakens, and then collapses from the weight on it.
You actually think that a world class economist like Edenhoffer is stupid enough to SPELL OUT what "their" plan is? You believe that he blabbed this stuff then said to himself; " Damn did I just say that? "
Instead of being rational and thinking that MAYBE just MAYBE! this was something Edenhoffer said that the right wing/Heartland funded blogosphere took out of context. You just copied and pasted quickly like pop does, because what you read was what you thought was an A-HA! I'VE UNCOVERED THE PLOT! moment.
What did Edenhoffer actually say? Again IN CONTEXT.
http://sydbaumel.blogspot.com/2013/08/cfacts-new-meme-un-bureaucrat-admits.html
Basically it’s a big mistake to discuss climate policy separately from the major themes of globalization. The climate summit in Cancun at the end of the month is not a climate conference, but one of the largest economic conferences since the Second World War. Why? Because we have 11,000 gigatons of carbon in the coal reserves in the soil under our feet – and we must emit only 400 gigatons in the atmosphere if we want to keep the 2-degree target [i.e., limiting warming to no more than 2 degrees C. above the preindustrial average because, as every country in the world agreed in 2009, the science says this will at least give us a 50:50 chance of avoiding the most catastrophic climate change]. 11 000 to 400 – there is no getting around the fact that most of the fossil reserves must remain in the soil.
De facto, this means an expropriation of the countries with natural resources. This leads to a very different development from that which has been triggered by development policy.
First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy. Obviously, the owners of coal and oil will not be enthusiastic about this. One has to free oneself from the illusion that international climate policy is environmental policy. This has almost nothing to do with environmental policy anymore, with problems such as deforestation or the ozone hole.
Nevertheless, the environment is suffering from climate change – especially in the global south.
What he's saying in case you don't understand...(never mind I know you don't understand) is that wealthy countries have taken something no one owns(the atmosphere), dumped CO2 in it, and affected poorer countries because of the worldwide climate change they've caused. THAT IS THE WEALTH REDISTRIBUTION; FROM POORER TO RICHER. It's as Baumel states " a byproduct" of climate policy NOT THE PURPOSE OF A CONSPIRACY.
Again:
First of all, developed countries have basically expropriated the atmosphere of the world community. But one must say clearly that we redistribute de facto the world’s wealth by climate policy.
The owners of coal and oil will not be happy of course because they will also suffer from new climate policy. Their future wealth will not be redistributed so much, as left in the earth.
I guess you want a model to tell you exactly what day it will be too warm? That must be what it is because the idea that models can't accurately tell us about projected warming years from now is absolute hogwash, and you know it.
Let's use an analogy based on you're ideas about the models:
Do you own a house? Do you have fire insurance?
If you do why would you buy it? Why would you do that when you don't know if or even when your house is going to burn down?
I'll tell you why; because you KNOW that if your house burned down it would be such a devastating loss you might end up on the street and never recover fully. Did you look up the statistics on the chances of your house burning? OF COURSE NOT YOU BOUGHT THE INSURANCE WITHOUT HESITATION!
Yet you're telling us; " we don't know exactly when climate change is going to devastate us, so let's do nothing"
You want us to continue running this uncontrolled experiment on the only planet we have, and buy no insurance........
And pop is a nut????????
