Covid Vaccine

[oneforthebus]

You apparently aren't going to be bothered with an argument for natural immunity, therapeutics, vitamins, physical fitness & just general things we've been doing as a species for millennium - but please, not you, don't go all "unvaccinated people are costing us lives" bullshit you've been beaten to death by the powers that be with.

I've already stated numerous times that in my opinion natural immunity should be considered at this point equal to a vaccine.

Vitamins and therapeutics are great, have nothing against them, or physical fitness. I'm not sure what any of these have to do with anything I've said. Overall good health increases your chances of survival of any number of illness and diseases. I also didn't say "unvaccinated people are costing us lives". I said fear mongering about vaccines is costing people their lives.

I've made my practical arguments here many times over so I'm not going to continue beating my head against a wall, but I'm not going to be labeled a fear-monger because I'm skeptical about an experimental vaccine that's had literally 1/10th the pre-clinical/clinical trial testing a normal vaccine goes through.

I couldn't care less if you're skeptical. Be skeptical all you want. My issue is with misinformation and people taking sides based on politics. And not directed at you personally though for some reason unknown to me you seem to be taking it personally. Posting a death of a young woman two months after getting a vaccine and insinuating the vaccine killed her without a shred of evidence is the kind of thing I'm talking about (and not something you posted). This kind of **** is all over the internet, might be the article that keeps some less than tip top shape older person from getting a vaccine that could prevent their death.

You have absolutely no idea what the long-term side effects are yet.

No one knows the long term effects of any new vaccine or medical treatment. The way they are discovered is by administering them to ever growing numbers of human beings. There's nothing new or different about that. You all keep screaming "There hasn't been enough testing" as if the testing is something that happens in a lab for 10 years before it ever gets into people. Actual people taking the vaccine or treatment is how testing is conducted. In this case sped up some because people were dying. And because there had already been years of research into the technology. And because we produced the vaccines while the clinical trials were ongoing, rather than waiting until they were concluded. Again, because a lot of people were dying.

We also don't know what all the long term effects of covid are. I know numerous people who have long term side effects from covid, a fact you all seem to conveniently forget when you are repeating over and over about low death rates. I know a nurse in her 20s who was perfectly healthy and still has to use an inhaler and still has no taste or smell, I think it's going on 6 months now. My 18 year old son doesn't completely have his back and I worry if that means long term cellular or neurological damage that will cause other problems down the road. I guess we'll find out. I think our chances would have been a lot better with the vaccine.

 

[Steelworth]

Control is a powerful drug.

Was watching a mafia documentary recently where a guy who was actually involved big time said "you can take all the coke, liquor, fancy suits, beautiful women etc. you want - but it's the money, power & control that are the hardest of drugs to kick."

 

[Steelworth]

I've already stated numerous times that in my opinion natural immunity should be considered at this point equal to a vaccine.

Vitamins and therapeutics are great, have nothing against them, or physical fitness. I'm not sure what any of these have to do with anything I've said. Overall good health increases your chances of survival of any number of illness and diseases. I also didn't say "unvaccinated people are costing us lives". I said fear mongering about vaccines is costing people their lives.


I couldn't care less if you're skeptical. Be skeptical all you want. My issue is with misinformation and people taking sides based on politics. And not directed at you personally though for some reason unknown to me you seem to be taking it personally. Posting a death of a young woman two months after getting a vaccine and insinuating the vaccine killed her without a shred of evidence is the kind of thing I'm talking about (and not something you posted). This kind of **** is all over the internet, might be the article that keeps some less than tip top shape older person from getting a vaccine that could prevent their death.



No one knows the long term effects of any new vaccine or medical treatment. The way they are discovered is by administering them to ever growing numbers of human beings. There's nothing new or different about that. You all keep screaming "There hasn't been enough testing" as if the testing is something that happens in a lab for 10 years before it ever gets into people. Actual people taking the vaccine or treatment is how testing is conducted. In this case sped up some because people were dying. And because there had already been years of research into the technology. And because we produced the vaccines while the clinical trials were ongoing, rather than waiting until they were concluded. Again, because a lot of people were dying.

We also don't know what all the long term effects of covid are. I know numerous people who have long term side effects from covid, a fact you all seem to conveniently forget when you are repeating over and over about low death rates. I know a nurse in her 20s who was perfectly healthy and still has to use an inhaler and still has no taste or smell, I think it's going on 6 months now. My 18 year old son doesn't completely have his back and I worry if that means long term cellular or neurological damage that will cause other problems down the road. I guess we'll find out. I think our chances would have been a lot better with the vaccine.

Fair enough on much of this, but to the bolded, that's actually exactly what happens. You've apparently never been in a pre-clinical/clinical laboratory testing environment, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - the majority of us haven't.

 

[oneforthebus]

One. To say 99% of COVID deaths are among the unvaccinated is misleading. We are averaging 200 deaths a day now from COVID. Nearly 8,000 Americans die a day. If this were a year ago today, I'd say "wow." But this headline everyone is throwing about comes off as "duh" to me. 99% of 4,000 deaths a day last year is one thing. 99% of 200 deaths a day is applying a percentage to one of America's lowest causes of death. Just two weeks ago I posted a link that informed us that the Government no longer considers COVID a leading cause of death.

200 deaths a day but 99% of them (and last I heard, about 98% of hospitalizations) are occurring in the 50% of the population that isn't vaccinated. That is a remarkable statistic on the effectiveness of these vaccines in preventing serious illness and death. Covid is not a crisis any more because of the huge numbers of people who are immune, but if you aren't immune you're at risk. Hey, it's your life (the collective you, not you personally), I'd just like you to make your decision based on facts. Because I don't want you to die, or even get sick enough to go into the hospital. There are really no selfish reasons anymore, I'm double immune I'm gonna be fine. I don't know why some people are so convinced that there must be some nefarious reasons why people are encouraging vaccines. It's weird. Do you all really believe that the government knows these vaccines are killing people and wants to push them anyway? For what? I don't trust the government's competence very much but I also don't think they are evil intentional killers.

Two. Yes it is a mathematical reality that few will die of these vaccines. That doesn't mean we shouldn't be looking at these vaccines compared to other vaccines. Through that lens, they are unsafe. If you are in Vegas placing odds, sure the chances of you suffering an adverse reaction are small. Compared to other vaccines however, these so far appear to be infinitely more dangerous. Tens of thousands of adverse events have been reported now to VAERS. It's commonly understood that VAERS is an under-reported database of vaccine-adverse events. So the numbers are likely higher. How much, I don't know.

There are good reasons why VAERS reports are so much higher, and I know you've researched this so should know. One, because this is such a high profile controversy, reporting is likely way up. If your kid got a fever after the measles shot as millions of kids do it's unlikely it was ever reported to VAERS. Every side effect is asked about and reported. Also you have millions of people getting vaccinated in a very short time period. There are obviously going to be more reports clustered together. And I don't know what you mean by "infinitely more dangerous". Once again, "death after vaccine" in VAERS does not mean "death caused by vaccine". And a lot of VAERS reports are minor, not dangerous at all, unless you consider "sore arm" to be dangerous.

That said I'm not denying there can be serious adverse events. I have not seen any data (data, not anecdotes) that puts them way out of line with any other vaccines. VAERS reports are not "data about things caused by vaccines", and should not be looked at as such. They should be looked at as "things that happened to people some time after getting a vaccine, which should be investigated to determine if there is a causal link". So far no causal links with deaths has been found except in exceedingly rare cases.

 

[oneforthebus]

Yep. We as a nation suffered 171 COVID deaths yesterday.

No biggie I guess unless it's someone you love and it could have been prevented.

I'm going to edit this to say, I know that's not how you meant it, but my point is if we can prevent 200 deaths/day and it appears strongly that we can, we should..

 

[oneforthebus]

Fair enough on much of this, but to the bolded, that's actually exactly what happens. You've apparently never been in a pre-clinical/clinical laboratory testing environment, and there's absolutely nothing wrong with that - the majority of us haven't.

I know they are studied in labs first, my point is that there is no definitive way to test safety in humans except...to test safety in humans. When most people refer to testing they're referring to clinical trials, which involve humans. Coronaviruses have been studied for 50 years. Mrna technology has been studied for over 20.

 

[Steelworth]

I know they are studied in labs first, my point is that there is no definitive way to test safety in humans except...to test safety in humans. When most people refer to testing they're referring to clinical trials, which involve humans. Coronaviruses have been studied for 50 years. Mrna technology has been studied for over 20.

You're not understanding my point. Pre-clinical/clinical trials last for years/decades due to the grueling process of even beginning/conducting the trial from the FDA, period. There are significant steps in starting an actual "clinical trial" like IRBs (institutional review boards), express consent (yeah, this is actually a really big deal) and so many other things you apparently have absolutely no idea about.

There's a very good reason this experimental vaccine has not been approved for use, period. EUA only. Read all the literature again if you need to.

 

[oneforthebus]

You're not understanding my point. Pre-clinical/clinical trials last for years/decades due to the grueling process of even beginning/conducting the trial from the FDA, period. There are significant steps in starting an actual "clinical trial" like IRBs (institutional review boards), express consent (yeah, this is actually a really big deal) and so many other things you apparently have absolutely no idea about.

There's a very good reason this experimental vaccine has not been approved for use, period. EUA only. Read all the literature again if you need to.

You're correct that I do not know all of the terminology for the entire process; I have discussed at length with a former pharmaceutical executive who is a close friend. Tells me the the main holdup in full approval is they have to follow the clinical trial participants for a certain period of time in order to get it. Expected to happen in a few months.

 

[Steelworth]

You're correct that I do not know all of the terminology for the entire process; I have discussed at length with a former pharmaceutical executive who is a close friend. Tells me the main holdup in full approval is they have to follow the clinical trial participants for a certain period of time in order to get it. Expected to happen in a few months.

It's not so much that you don't know the terminology - it's more that you don't know the actual process. Like if I wanted to work in fabrication for example, but only saw a few YouTube videos of it - that in no way makes me even remotely qualified in telling others who've done it for years how it's supposed to be done.

And you spoke to a pharmaceutical executive? One who's best to profit from this nonsense? I've spoken to microbiologists and virologists from Caltech (who haven't a single penny to make), and they inform me differently. But I wouldn't put it past the FDA to find a way to bypass the grueling clinical period to push this onto the public (even under significant scientific/clinical scrutiny) in the name of 'saving the world'. From a respiratory virus with a 0.5% survival rate (give or take). But you keep on keepin' on and good luck.

I'll tell you what - let's visit this again in two years - and we'll see how we've both managed? That seems entirely fair enough, doesn't it?

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Doctors is key IMO, as they are highly educated and less likely to be influenced by misinformation, conspiracy theories and hysteria. A medical assistant (also a healthcare worker) might quit to work at McDonalds for more pay, I really don’t care about their opinion regarding the vaccine.

Bias is assuming that people wiling to participate in a survey would be pro-vaccine. 12 of the 301 docs said they weren’t vaccinated. Maybe they were motivated to be the voice of the minority? Again, margin of error works both ways.

yep, doctors are never influenced by drug company persuasion. Opioid epidemic says what?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

No biggie I guess unless it's someone you love and it could have been prevented.

I'm going to edit this to say, I know that's not how you meant it, but my point is if we can prevent 200 deaths/day and it appears strongly that we can, we should..

I get this point, I do. But....risk/benefit analysis.

We lose 337 persons a day in America due to Alzheimers disease. It affects primarily the elderly. As does COVID. Should we mandate every living human being get an Alzheimer's vaccine (if there was one) just to save one life, even if the disease really only targets the elderly? Why vaccinate the young, those under 60 with the Alzheimer's vaccine?

We could prevent 337 Alzheimer's deaths a day if everyone had the vaccine. But at what cost?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

I know they are studied in labs first, my point is that there is no definitive way to test safety in humans except...to test safety in humans. When most people refer to testing they're referring to clinical trials, which involve humans. Coronaviruses have been studied for 50 years. Mrna technology has been studied for over 20.

Do vaccines not get tested on animals for years before moving into clinical trials on humans after the animal testing has been approved as "effective"? When they are moved to humans for testing, are they not administered to humans that are near death or in clinical trials, not the mass population, including the not-at-risk... like teens?

You have spoken wisely about vaccines, so I'm asking...not poking at you..

I also understand, despite having had COVID, you and your family also elected to get the vaccines on top of that due to schooling. So you are pre-disposed to believe in them. Since I have not, I'm pre-disposed to believe I likewise have made the right choice. But those choices do influence our thinking, as objective as we think we may be.

 

[Steelworth]

Do vaccines not get tested on animals for years before moving into clinical trials on humans after the animal testing has been approved as "effective"? When they are moved to humans for testing, are they not administered to humans that are near death or in clinical trials

They are tested on animals for years. And the "clinical trials" that people so nonchalantly talk about people being signed up for - are really human guinea pigs. They have to sign explicit express forms that no regular human wants to actually read. It's actually a pretty disgusting endeavor, but someone's gotta take that first step!

 

[ZonaBurgh]

You're correct that I do not know all of the terminology for the entire process; I have discussed at length with a former pharmaceutical executive who is a close friend. Tells me the the main holdup in full approval is they have to follow the clinical trial participants for a certain period of time in order to get it. Expected to happen in a few months.

The problem with that scenario is that drugs, or vaccines in this case, don't get from the developmental stage to market in a matter of months with FDA approval. Take the shingles vaccine, Zostavax, Merck applied for a patent and submitted a NDA (new drug application) around 2000, but it wasn't approved until 2006. Even now Merck is facing lawsuits claiming the vaccine has caused damages and even death, and this after 6 years of clinical trials.

I'm not against this vaccine, I've chosen to get it myself, but we are the guinea pigs in this trial, and the consequences of this experiment won't be known for years, maybe decades.

 

[Badcat]

First of all, Floggy told us all, no kids have died because of the vax. And this was just a sample? I'd love a link and to research more.

Second, how horrifying. How can anyone not see the connection? If these were 60, 70, 80 year olds having heart attacks, I would grant to you there was a likelihood they weren't correlated. But wtf?

A 16 YEAR OLD GIRL is cyanotic - marked by or causing a bluish or purplish discoloration (as of the skin and mucous membranes) due to deficient oxygenation of the blood??
A 16 YEAR OLD GIRL had cardiac arrest at home with a large pulmonary embolism??
A 16 YEAR OLD GIRL with pericardial effusion then has hemophagocytic lymphohistocytosis (a condition in which the body makes too many activated immune cells (macrophages and lymphocytes)
A 17 YEAR OLD GIRL dies of a heart attack??

Come on people. At least in the past with numerous vaccines that went bad - Anthrax vaccines, the bad doses of polio vaccines, and several others - the government stepped forward and stopped the vaccinations. Instead there is a full-on push for 100% of mankind to take these vaccines beyond the likes of anything we have ever seen. I don't get it.

Here is the link to the data. I downloaded the full spread sheet, sorted it by those who died and removed those who didn't die. Then, I sorted by age.

VAERS Data

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

The problem with that scenario is that drugs, or vaccines in this case, don't get from the developmental stage to market in a matter of months with FDA approval. Take the shingles vaccine, Zostavax, Merck applied for a patent and submitted a NDA (new drug application) around 2000, but it wasn't approved until 2006. Even now Merck is facing lawsuits claiming the vaccine has caused damages and even death, and this after 6 years of clinical trials.

I'm not against this vaccine, I've chosen to get it myself, but we are the guinea pigs in this trial, and the consequences of this experiment won't be known for years, maybe decades.

Makes you wonder if that comes true. Who’s the class action suite going to be against? Big pharm can simply state big govt pushed, mandated it. That will be a mess.

 

[oneforthebus]

They are tested on animals for years. And the "clinical trials" that people so nonchalantly talk about people being signed up for - are really human guinea pigs. They have to sign explicit express forms that no regular human wants to actually read. It's actually a pretty disgusting endeavor, but someone's gotta take that first step!

Digusting? Really? Without this process we might still have an average lifespan in the 40s but ok,

 

[oneforthebus]

It's not so much that you don't know the terminology - it's more that you don't know the actual process. Like if I wanted to work in fabrication for example, but only saw a few YouTube videos of it - that in no way makes me even remotely qualified in telling others who've done it for years how it's supposed to be done.

And you spoke to a pharmaceutical executive? One who's best to profit from this nonsense? I've spoken to microbiologists and virologists from Caltech (who haven't a single penny to make), and they inform me differently. But I wouldn't put it past the FDA to find a way to bypass the grueling clinical period to push this onto the public (even under significant scientific/clinical scrutiny) in the name of 'saving the world'. From a respiratory virus with a 0.5% survival rate (give or take). But you keep on keepin' on and good luck.

I'll tell you what - let's visit this again in two years - and we'll see how we've both managed? That seems entirely fair enough, doesn't it?

LOL easy to lay down that challenge now when you are largely protected from getting covid because of all of the people who did get the vaccine (as well as natural immunity).

But just in case you're wondering I recently had my physical...I'm 54 and in great shape from a medical perspective. 15 pounds overweight but blood pressure, cholesterol, EKG all perfect. 3 months after vaccine. I guess the poison hasn't kicked in yet.

My lifelong friend is no longer in the pharmaceutical business, though he does serve on a couple boards. I'm pretty sure he wouldn't have his entire family and encourage all of his close friends get injected with something unsafe just so his former employers can make more money. Pharmaceutical employees are actual human beings with families and friends too. My evil pharm exec friend was instrumental in the development of a cancer drug that is currently saving many lives.

But hey if you really want to believe the pharma industry doesn't care about harming people in exchange for making a buck I know I won't change your mind.

 

[Superman]

Opinion: Tennessee vaccine official's story reveals an ugly truth about GOP and children's rights

Jill Filipovic writes that the danger inherent in ideological partisan divides over Covid-19 vaccination is evident in Tennessee, where the firing of Dr. Michelle Fiscus reinforces the enduring irony that the GOP, the "pro-life" party, doesn't believe that children, including teens, have basic...

www.cnn.com

HOLY ****! SHUT THE ******* FRONT DOOR! FLOG POSTED A LINK!
MY MY MY

yet, it's an opinion. It's a damn good start, but still an absolute failure.

 

[oneforthebus]

Do vaccines not get tested on animals for years before moving into clinical trials on humans after the animal testing has been approved as "effective"? When they are moved to humans for testing, are they not administered to humans that are near death or in clinical trials, not the mass population, including the not-at-risk... like teens?

You have spoken wisely about vaccines, so I'm asking...not poking at you..

I also understand, despite having had COVID, you and your family also elected to get the vaccines on top of that due to schooling. So you are pre-disposed to believe in them. Since I have not, I'm pre-disposed to believe I likewise have made the right choice. But those choices do influence our thinking, as objective as we think we may be.

Pfizer and Moderna did not skip animal trials

CLAIM: The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are mRNAs vaccines that skipped animal trials because using mRNA vaccines on animals triggers dangerous inflammation...

apnews.com

Recent posts are criticizing Pfizer and Moderna, who both announced that their vaccines were more than 90 percent effective at preventing COVID-19. One tweet with more than 4,000 likes suggests that the two companies did not conduct animal trials when testing their vaccines because testing mRNA vaccines on animals could cause dangerous side effects.

The vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna both rely on messenger RNA. MRNA vaccines contain a genetic code that trains the immune system to recognize the spike protein on the surface of the virus to generate an immune response.

Due to the urgent need for a vaccine in a surging pandemic, Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on mice and macaques.

“They overlapped preclinical studies with the early phases of the trials,” said Dr. William Moss, executive director for the International Vaccine Access Center at Johns Hopkins University. “In fact one of the reasons we are even talking about vaccines now just 10 months later is that some of the phases in which vaccine development normally occurs were overlapped rather than done sequentially.”

Posts online appeared to suggest that the animal trial phase was skipped completely when testing the two vaccines.

University of Pennsylvania professor of medicine Dr. Drew Weissman, who has been studying mRNA and mRNA vaccines for decades, said they do not cause dangerous inflammation to animals. Along with the vaccines for Pfizer and Moderna both passing animal trials, they also passed clinical trials on humans where they were tested on more than 70,000 people.

 

[oneforthebus]

I get this point, I do. But....risk/benefit analysis.

We lose 337 persons a day in America due to Alzheimers disease. It affects primarily the elderly. As does COVID. Should we mandate every living human being get an Alzheimer's vaccine (if there was one) just to save one life, even if the disease really only targets the elderly? Why vaccinate the young, those under 60 with the Alzheimer's vaccine?

We could prevent 337 Alzheimer's deaths a day if everyone had the vaccine. But at what cost?

Alzheimers is not a highly contagious illness. Covid, while not especially deadly to younger people, is not harmless to all of them either.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Makes you wonder if that comes true. Who’s the class action suite going to be against? Big pharm can simply state big govt pushed, mandated it. That will be a mess.

That's another thing about these vaccines. They cannot be sued. Each company was given blanket immunity because these were EUA developed. There's literally no recourse for the victims with them.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Alzheimers is not a highly contagious illness. Covid, while not especially deadly to younger people, is not harmless to all of them either.

Not it's not contagious. But it kills approximately the same few number of people a day. If it were contagious, the parallels are dead on.

We have set a precedent that scares the **** out of me going forward. "In the name of safety" and we were locked down, destroyed...and now we may need papers to travel, certain people cannot get their jobs back unless they take a vaccine they may object to for a litany of reasons, there may be a national vaccine database, and there are roving squads of vaccine-pushers.

It bears repeating, as we have all said, over and over...for a virus that is less fatal than the flu for those under 60.

It's the stuff of science fiction novels if you ask me.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Pfizer and Moderna did not skip animal trials

CLAIM: The Pfizer and Moderna vaccines are mRNAs vaccines that skipped animal trials because using mRNA vaccines on animals triggers dangerous inflammation...

apnews.com

Recent posts are criticizing Pfizer and Moderna, who both announced that their vaccines were more than 90 percent effective at preventing COVID-19. One tweet with more than 4,000 likes suggests that the two companies did not conduct animal trials when testing their vaccines because testing mRNA vaccines on animals could cause dangerous side effects.

The vaccines from Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna both rely on messenger RNA. MRNA vaccines contain a genetic code that trains the immune system to recognize the spike protein on the surface of the virus to generate an immune response.

Due to the urgent need for a vaccine in a surging pandemic, Pfizer and Moderna were given approval to simultaneously test their vaccines on animals while they were conducting Phase 1 trials on humans. The vaccines were tested on mice and macaques.

“They overlapped preclinical studies with the early phases of the trials,” said Dr. William Moss, executive director for the International Vaccine Access Center at Johns Hopkins University. “In fact one of the reasons we are even talking about vaccines now just 10 months later is that some of the phases in which vaccine development normally occurs were overlapped rather than done sequentially.”

Posts online appeared to suggest that the animal trial phase was skipped completely when testing the two vaccines.

University of Pennsylvania professor of medicine Dr. Drew Weissman, who has been studying mRNA and mRNA vaccines for decades, said they do not cause dangerous inflammation to animals. Along with the vaccines for Pfizer and Moderna both passing animal trials, they also passed clinical trials on humans where they were tested on more than 70,000 people.

That's good info. I was not aware of the simultaneous human-animal testing. Doesn't cover J&J, but fair enough.

Still concerns me the normal years long, full testing wasn't followed. I don't know what is the cause, but compared to all other vaccines, these vaccines are still driving infinitely more adverse effects than the others. Likely culprit is the lack of proper testing, but who knows at this point.

 

[oneforthebus]

Not it's not contagious. But it kills approximately the same few number of people a day. If it were contagious, the parallels are dead on.

We have set a precedent that scares the **** out of me going forward. "In the name of safety" and we were locked down, destroyed...and now we may need papers to travel, certain people cannot get their jobs back unless they take a vaccine they may object to for a litany of reasons, there may be a national vaccine database, and there are roving squads of vaccine-pushers.

It bears repeating, as we have all said, over and over...for a virus that is less fatal than the flu for those under 60.

It's the stuff of science fiction novels if you ask me.

Have there never been vaccines required for travel, employment or school before? Public health workers pushing vaccines is something new? https://www.redcross.org/about-us/o...-services/measles-and-rubella-initiative.html

What I don't get is why people think there is something nefarious about this. What does the government have to gain by pushing this? Not money, it's costing them billions. Persuading people to get a vaccine is some kind of mind control technique? What? I just don't get the working theory.