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ESPN Insiders rank QB's

Ben hasn't had a real OL in a long time. Then the Steelers let his WRs go and he has to start over every few years. I can even count how many WRs have left the past 5 years. This year he has ONE go to WR in Brown. He'll have an untested WR in Wheaton and a new WR in Moore. Then as backups he has a washed up DHB and a rookie. He also hasn't had a real RB since Bettis left. Now he finally has Bell and Blount. So that should help. He has ONE TE worth a **** and some half assed hybrid FB/ TE with Johnson.

****, not sure what else Ben can do with what he has.

And this is the point they were making with Luck in the article.
He didn't have any semblence of a RB, and old and banged up Reggie Wayne who was hurt all of last year, no O-Line and a garbage D.
He didn't have the luxury of a Cowher Run, Run, Pass ground and pound attack in his first two years. The Colts really did/have put it all on his shoulders.
This as a rookie and sophmore QB.

I am NOT saying he should be ranked higher than Ben RIGHT NOW. No way. He should not be. Period.
But because we don't know what criteria they were given, and it even states in the article some focused on this and some on that, it all becomes super subjective and complete wheel spinning on our parts because we don't know if they're saying body of work to date, starting the big game tomorrow, or building the franchise around today.
As someone previously said, it changes the answers in each instance.
 
Sounds to me like the "experts" were just asked to rank them in tiers 1 (best) to 5 (worst). Like you rank a movie in stars.

To get a ranking of 1.04 (like Brees, Brady, Rogers and Manning), you likely have 23-26 "expert voters" with ONE of those voters somehow not giving Rogers, Brees, Manning and Brady a maximum ranking (giving them a 2 instead of a 1). Maybe one guy thinks Manning is too old. Maybe one guy didn't like Brady's season last year. Maybe one guy doesn't like how Brees/Rogers have fared in the post-season lately. Whatever the reason, those guys got only 1 more point than the best possible.

Andrew luck garnered exactly 50% 1's and 50% 2's (has to be an even number of voters) for a 1.5 score. 13 voters put Luck in the tier 1 group, 13 voters put him in tier 2. I doubt anyone called Luck tier 3 (average starter).

Rivers got a 1.77 and Roethlisberger got a 1.85. Now we have more information on the number of voters. In order to get these average score, I deduce there were 26 voters. Rivers got a total of 46 points, Roethlisberger got 48.

Really NOT that give a difference. Out of 26 random guys Luck gets 39 stars, Rivers gets 46 stars and Roethlsiberger gets 48 stars (with 1 star being the best and 5 stars being the worst).

Honestly it just takes one jackass vote who doesn't like Roethlisberger's "style" and decides to give him 3 stars to throw the who thing off. And we all know Roethlisberger's helter-skelter backyard football style annoys some old-school GM's and "experts". Wouldn't surprise me at all if one considers him an "average starter" just to **** him. And we all know the love of Andrew Luck from a "physical" and "potential" perspective from GM's and talent evaluators. Wouldn't surprise me all for many to consider Luck a 1-star player even if he hasn't proven that yet on the field.

Again, dumb article. ONE 5-star vote on very undefined criteria from 26 random guys that probably got an e-mail and spent all of 5 minutes voting.

Hell, we could do that here and come up with something just as good and news worthy.
 
In reading the article I noticed a rather large drop in the last year of Brady stats wise, could be Marsha is beginning the decline in skill level that hits everyone.
 
Good read, thanks for posting the article cpollock :)



Salute the nation
 
I assume this list is mostly about who is the best right now and not a list of which QB you would want on your team. If it was then you would have to drop guys like Brady and Manning because they are old and you'd rather have a younger guy.

Here's my list of right now QBs.
1 Rodgers
2 Peyton
3. Brees
4 Ben Roethlisberger
5 Brady - i think his arm is weakening
6 Luck
7 Rivers
8 Matt Ryan
9 Romo
10 Foles - had a great year but could be because defenses were confused by the system. We'll see if he can have a solid year 2.
11 Wilson
12 Cam Newton
13 Eli
14 Stafford
15 Cutler
16 Flacco
17 Tannehill - still raw but he's shown some good flashes
18 Kaepernick - struggles to read defenses when not doing read option
19 Carson Palmer
20 Alex Smith - smart but rarely challenges deep
21 Andy Dalton
22 Bradford
23 RG3 - looked lost at times
24 Schaub
25 McCown
26 Cassel
27 Henne
28 Locker
29 Fitzpatrick
30 Geno Smith
31 Hoyer
32 EJ Manuel
 
Is it short bias? HOW THE **** IS RUSSEL BELOW LUCK?

Wilson is the ONLY qb in NFL HISTORY to start out with two 100 QB rating seasons.

As a rookie he threw more TDs than Luck with ONE THIRD LESS ATTEMPTS.

Both years he threw more TDs and less picks than Luck

And oh yeah, that whole SB thing.

This **** makes no ******* sense. I think people just don't want to admit they whiffed on Wilson because he's 5 foot 11.984579857 inches.
 
I'm a Wilson homer, but he is not better than Luck. I would put him around #8. Hell, Luck might have taken the Seahawks to the SB his rookie year.
 
I'm a Wilson homer, but he is not better than Luck. I would put him around #8. Hell, Luck might have taken the Seahawks to the SB his rookie year.

Better how? Specifically.

Luck has already proven a propensity for choking. Yes he had that huge playoff comeback, but he dug the hole himself with 4 early picks.

How, exactly, is Luck better?
 
I assume this list is mostly about who is the best right now and not a list of which QB you would want on your team. If it was then you would have to drop guys like Brady and Manning because they are old and you'd rather have a younger guy.

Here's my list of right now QBs.
1 Rodgers
2 Peyton
3. Brees
4 Ben Roethlisberger
5 Brady - i think his arm is weakening
6 Luck
7 Rivers
8 Matt Ryan
9 Romo
10 Foles - had a great year but could be because defenses were confused by the system. We'll see if he can have a solid year 2.
11 Wilson
12 Cam Newton
13 Eli
14 Stafford
15 Cutler
16 Flacco
17 Tannehill - still raw but he's shown some good flashes
18 Kaepernick - struggles to read defenses when not doing read option
19 Carson Palmer
20 Alex Smith - smart but rarely challenges deep
21 Andy Dalton
22 Bradford
23 RG3 - looked lost at times
24 Schaub
25 McCown
26 Cassel
27 Henne
28 Locker
29 Fitzpatrick
30 Geno Smith
31 Hoyer
32 EJ Manuel


Thanks Tape, I think Payton & Brady are interchangeable at #4#5 slide BR up a spot. Flacco spot, seems fair.


Salute the nation
 
Is it short bias? HOW THE **** IS RUSSEL BELOW LUCK?

Wilson is the ONLY qb in NFL HISTORY to start out with two 100 QB rating seasons.

As a rookie he threw more TDs than Luck with ONE THIRD LESS ATTEMPTS.

Both years he threw more TDs and less picks than Luck

And oh yeah, that whole SB thing.

This **** makes no ******* sense. I think people just don't want to admit they whiffed on Wilson because he's 5 foot 11.984579857 inches.

They're in completely different situations. Put Luck on the Seahawks where the opposing team is focusing on Marshawn Lynch as much as they are on him and see what happens. Defenses play run first against the Seahawks and pass first against the Colts.

Also, they had the same number of picks last season, despite Wilson throwing much less, and Wilson was sacked a lot more.
 
They're in completely different situations. Put Luck on the Seahawks where the opposing team is focusing on Marshawn Lynch as much as they are on him and see what happens. Defenses play run first against the Seahawks and pass first against the Colts.

Also, they had the same number of picks last season, despite Wilson throwing much less, and Wilson was sacked a lot more.

The situations may be different, but Wilson is CLEARLY more efficient.

Wilson's 2013 completion percentage was 63% to Luck's 60%.

True, they had the same pick numbers, 9 each. But Luck lost 5 fumbles to Wilson's 2. So Luck still turned the ball over more.

True, Wilson ate more sacks. But seeing as how he also protected the ball better, it's probably a wash.

But the dagger in Luck's heart are the TD numbers. Despite having a whopping 163 more attempts, Luck threw 3 less touchdowns.

And to slam the door for good: Wilson had an 8.2 yard passing average to Luck's 6.7.

In fact the only thing Luck has going for him is more yards, largely do to more attempts. And lets not pretend that Wilson has some superhuman Megatron/Randy Moss type pass catchers. He does not. Wilson has back to back 100+ QB ratings in two seasons. Luck? 76 and 87.


Wilson has better stats, more wins, a Super Bowl, and he does not choke. So I ask again, other than being taller, how is Luck better?
 
I'd take Wilson over Luck 8 days a week
 
The situations may be different, but Wilson is CLEARLY more efficient.

Wilson's 2013 completion percentage was 63% to Luck's 60%.

True, they had the same pick numbers, 9 each. But Luck lost 5 fumbles to Wilson's 2. So Luck still turned the ball over more.

True, Wilson ate more sacks. But seeing as how he also protected the ball better, it's probably a wash.

But the dagger in Luck's heart are the TD numbers. Despite having a whopping 163 more attempts, Luck threw 3 less touchdowns.

And to slam the door for good: Wilson had an 8.2 yard passing average to Luck's 6.7.

In fact the only thing Luck has going for him is more yards, largely do to more attempts. And lets not pretend that Wilson has some superhuman Megatron/Randy Moss type pass catchers. He does not. Wilson has back to back 100+ QB ratings in two seasons. Luck? 76 and 87.


Wilson has better stats, more wins, a Super Bowl, and he does not choke. So I ask again, other than being taller, how is Luck better?

He also has a superior running back and defense around him, so there is less pressure on him every possession and he sees a lot more man coverage than Luck and many other QBs. You cannot just acknowledge that the situations are different then proceed to use the numbers as some sort of absolute case.

Regarding the stats, you need to at least be consistent, you want to harp on the fact Wilson had more TD passes with far less attempts, but want to downplay the fact he had the same amount of picks and far more sacks with the same attempts. You cannot have it both ways.

In addition, QB rating is becoming obsolete, as there have been years where QBs like Matt Cassel were elite in that category. Accounting for situational football and other negative plays, such as sacks, ESPNs QBR is becoming more relevant.

Based on that, Luck was the better QB last year.

I like Wilson, but based on watching them play, I think Luck is the more advanced passer and will be the player going forward.
 
Funny. Steeler fans knocking a super bowl winning quarterback because he plays on a team with a good defense.
Am I the only one seeing the irony of that here?
 
I will take Luck any and every day over Wilson, without a 2nd thought
 
I stopped listening to the "experts" over at ESPN a while ago. I believe Flacco just won his 8 or 9th playoff game at Denver and the ESPN headline was "Joe Flacco still Joe Fluke-o". Meanwhile Matt Ryan just won his first playoff game the headline was "It's official, Matt Ryan is elite".
 
He also has a superior running back and defense around him, so there is less pressure on him every possession and he sees a lot more man coverage than Luck and many other QBs. You cannot just acknowledge that the situations are different then proceed to use the numbers as some sort of absolute case.

This runs counter to any and all league trends.

Alex Smith plays in a run based offense with a good defense. So do Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick. None is as efficient as Wilson, and the first two have much more experience.

Now looking at Luck's pass based contemporaries: Brady and Rivers also play in passing offenses with limited receiving help, and both are vastly more efficient than Luck.

In truth, regardless of situation, comparing run based to pass based, you get the same result: Luck is sub-par. Both to his run based contemporaries, as well as his pass based contemporaries.

Regarding the stats, you need to at least be consistent, you want to harp on the fact Wilson had more TD passes with far less attempts, but want to downplay the fact he had the same amount of picks and far more sacks with the same attempts. You cannot have it both ways.

That's because TD/INT ratio is more relevant than ATT/INT ratio. A coach can hide a QB's weaknesses by dinking and dunking, and Luck has. That's why his average is so much lower. He's throwing safe, easy passes. Wilson is throwing deep, completing, and throwing touchdowns. Even with all this short passing, he still has a lower completion percentage than Wilson. How is that?

In addition, QB rating is becoming obsolete, as there have been years where QBs like Matt Cassel were elite in that category. Accounting for situational football and other negative plays, such as sacks, ESPNs QBR is becoming more relevant.

Based on that, Luck was the better QB last year.

QBR is a fake stat. The formula has not been released, and according to ESPN they change the values from play to play. We have no idea what their measuring, so how can you say it's more relevant? They could be counting the beads of sweat on each guys forehead and entering that into the formula and we'd have no idea.

QBR is a total scam/marketing ploy.

I like Wilson, but based on watching them play, I think Luck is the more advanced passer and will be the player going forward.

Again, based on what? You're being all ambiguous and not giving any examples. Besides being taller, how is Luck better? The stat sheet says Wilson is the better QB. The win column says Wilson is the better QB. The Superbowl Ring says that Wilson is a better QB. In every way that we use to measure QBs, Wilson is better.

So please, elaborate, what is this magical quality that makes Luck better?
 
This runs counter to any and all league trends.

Alex Smith plays in a run based offense with a good defense. So do Joe Flacco and Colin Kaepernick. None is as efficient as Wilson, and the first two have much more experience.

Now looking at Luck's pass based contemporaries: Brady and Rivers also play in passing offenses with limited receiving help, and both are vastly more efficient than Luck.

In truth, regardless of situation, comparing run based to pass based, you get the same result: Luck is sub-par. Both to his run based contemporaries, as well as his pass based contemporaries.

So, you want to compare the efficiency of a second year QB in a pass oriented offense to those of veteran QBs in a similar offense? Nice.

It's much more difficult for a young QB to have success in the type of offense in which Luck has been compared to a run-oriented offense

If you look at all the first and second year QBs over the past decade who had success and won a lot of games in their first couple seasons, they all had strong running games behind them, all except Luck.

Luck is really the only QB to come into the league and win a lot of games, while being the focal point of his offense from the beginning. That says something about him not only currently as a player, but what he will become.

TThat's because TD/INT ratio is more relevant than ATT/INT ratio. A coach can hide a QB's weaknesses by dinking and dunking, and Luck has. That's why his average is so much lower. He's throwing safe, easy passes. Wilson is throwing deep, completing, and throwing touchdowns. Even with all this short passing, he still has a lower completion percentage than Wilson. How is that?

TD/INT is more important why? Because you said so?

I really have to wonder how many Colts' games you've watched, and whether 95% of your assessment of Luck derives solely from a stat sheet. If Luck was merely a dink and dunk, game manager type, as you imply, the Colts would not have won 23 games over the past two season with that running game and defense.

Even if your implication was correct (it's not), it's hypocritical to imply that the Colts are protecting Luck with short throws, while the Seahawks are not doing the same by limiting Wilson's attempts and allowing him to lean on Lynch.

You seem to be cherry picking what's efficient and what isn't. Luck gets sacked and intercepted at a lower rate and his offense converted 3rd downs at an identical rate without having a Marshawn Lynch for defenses to focus on and help move the chains.
 
I stopped listening to the "experts" over at ESPN a while ago. I believe Flacco just won his 8 or 9th playoff game at Denver and the ESPN headline was "Joe Flacco still Joe Fluke-o". Meanwhile Matt Ryan just won his first playoff game the headline was "It's official, Matt Ryan is elite".

yeah but...what about now?
 
I like Wilson but there is no comparison between what Luck is asked to do and what Wilson is asked to do. Luck is bigger, has a better arm and is actually faster than Wilson. Luck runs faster than Cam Newton. Now mix in that he's also one of the smartest QBs in the league.

If there was a draft and you took Wilson over Luck, you would be out of your mind.

When i rank QBs, i do it almost entirely based on how good they are at making plays from the pocket, because ultimately that is how you win consistently. Wilson is a good game manager but so far he is behind the others i have ahead of him in terms of ability to drop back, read a defense and make the right throw.

Eli won 2 SB and i have him below Wilson. That's because Eli is careless with the ball.

Here's what i look for
1. Enough arm strength? - doesn't have to be elite, Brady's arm was never elite but he can make all the throws.
2. Reading defenses -
3. Risk/Reward - a QB needs the right balance of going for the big play and taking the safe play. Go for it too much and you throw 27 INT like Eli. Rarely go for it and you are Alex Smith or Sam Bradford and nobody is scared of your offense
4. Mobility - not running, but being able to feel pressure, move a step and get the throw away.

I like Wilson's arm, and he's pretty good at making reads but i think he leans too safe and misses some opportunities. Because of that, i think he'd struggle a bit on a team without a strong supporting cast.

I don't think the Colts make the playoffs with Wilson.
 
While I do not usually play the July Blues and get into the speculative nature of absolutely the absurdness of rankings, today I will bite just a tad.

1. I take a page from Herm Edwards: "YOU PLAY TO WIN THE GAME!"
Therefore I rank QB's by the rings they have won....and the number of SB's they have played. Then you can banter, rant and rave over the ties....
I give a **** that Favre holds all the passing records, and Marino before him. Marino had zero Championships and Favre went 1-1.
In my book Ben is better than Brett.

2. Also in my opinion, the reason Ben does not get more love from the so called experts is many of them have not forgiven him for his off the field indiscretions. They therefore poo-poo anything he has accomplished. Fair or not, those incidents will always be a dark cloud hanging over his head. Ben could win 2 more SB's and probably have a hard time getting into the HOF.
 
I stopped listening to the "experts" over at ESPN a while ago. I believe Flacco just won his 8 or 9th playoff game at Denver and the ESPN headline was "Joe Flacco still Joe Fluke-o". Meanwhile Matt Ryan just won his first playoff game the headline was "It's official, Matt Ryan is elite".
Neither of them are even sniffing the 'elite' category and never will.

Ryan can't even be elite with Julio Jones, Roddy White, and Tony Gonzalez. LMAO
 
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