I do what I wanna do, **** it.

[Tim Steelersfan]

I put the important of amendment 2 pretty close to the importance of amendment 3. You crazy right-wingers have been spooked and sold a story that somehow having assault rifles will save you from a tyrannical government or help you survive a zombie apocalypse when neither is even close to true. The fact thousands of innocent people die each year because of your stubbornness and obtuse thinking still doesn't bother or deter you.

That's sad.

And I'll repost this **** until you crazy naive bleeding heart Liberals stop living in Disney Land. On this globe, in the past 100 years, 170MILLION people have been killed by their respective governments.

Digest that.

You are fools...complete and utter fools...to think it "could never happen here."

http://jpfo.org/pdf/dociviliangunsdoanygood.pdf

 

[deljzc]

Also, there are other examples of amendments in the Bill of Rights that evolve over time (and are not taken blanket literally).

The primary of these is Amendment 8, which prohibits cruel and unusual punishment. Earl Warren wrote in the majority that ""The [Eighth] Amendment must draw its meaning from the evolving standards of decency that mark the progress of a maturing society." While some lawyers and judges disagree with this interpretation it is far more prevalent and accepted today.

Why can't this same "evolving standards" test be applied to the right to bear arms based on the fact firearms are so different today than when written about in 1789?

 

[deljzc]

And I'll repost this **** until you crazy naive bleeding heart Liberals stop living in Disney Land. On this globe, in the past 100 years, 170MILLION people have been killed by their respective governments.

Digest that.

You are fools...complete and utter fools...to think it "could never happen here."

http://jpfo.org/pdf/dociviliangunsdoanygood.pdf

And many of those countries had plenty of guns too. What those countries didn't have was the right to assemble, a free press, checks and balances in a constitution, freedom of speech or protection from persecution based on religion.

Again, I fully agree you take away ALL the rights granted by the constitution away and we are in serious trouble. You take away just the right to bear arms? Not so much.

You are completely talking from a cynical point of view with conspiracies and depravity around every corner. Those cases are not the United States with a constitution that includes much more important protections than the right to have an assault weapon. You are just making **** up.

 

[Tibs]

Let me ask a fair question, and request an honest answer ...

If we had no 2nd amendment, and if Obama did not face intense criticism for doing so, and if he could do what he personally wants to do without political fallout, do you believe Obama would make private gun ownership illegal in the United States?

No ******* way. That should be clearly obvious to any sane person. The notion that the government / Obama is secretly planning to clamp down and take legally owned guns from people is a fantasy. It's about as silly willy as chasing rainbows and unicorns. People that try to convince you otherwise are paranoid, delusional and scared of their own shadows. That's my honest answer.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

What those countries didn't have was the right to assemble, a free press, checks and balances in a constitution, freedom of speech or protection from persecution based on religion...hose cases are not the United States with a constitution that includes much more important protections than the right to have an assault weapon. You are just making **** up.
.

Wrong again Del. 8.5Million people in the past 100 years were killed by their "Democratic" governments. Ya might try reading the paper before professing your intelligence.

 

[SteelerSask2]

And I'll repost this **** until you crazy naive bleeding heart Liberals stop living in Disney Land. On this globe, in the past 100 years, 170MILLION people have been killed by their respective governments.

Digest that.

You are fools...complete and utter fools...to think it "could never happen here."

http://jpfo.org/pdf/dociviliangunsdoanygood.pdf

Ok the US governemnt decides to subjugate its people and murder those who will not bow down to their gay liberal and transgender tyranny. Its you and a band of others there to defend your liberty with Assault riffles and glocks. They have planes, tanks, artillery and soldiers who are highly trained killers. How is this gonna go anyway. "WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!"

 

[Steel Vanguard]

No ******* way. That should be clearly obvious to any sane person. The notion that the government / Obama is secretly planning to clamp down and take legally owned guns from people is a fantasy. It's about as silly willy as chasing rainbows and unicorns. People that try to convince you otherwise are paranoid, delusional and scared of their own shadows. That's my honest answer.

I disagree. I think Obama would ban guns in a heartbeat.

He went soft on the gun issue in the beginning because he was trying to be a centrist. He knew that America, at that time, had no taste for more gun control. Keep in mind that the Assault Weapons Ban had just expired to rigorous applause a few years earlier. Times change.

Now his true self is coming out. Like gay marriage. He played politics with it until he got that second election done. Then all of a sudden, he's pro gay marriage. It is very clear that he was ALWAYS for gay marriage but it was politically infeasible at the time to take that position publicly. So too with guns. If it wouldn't sandbag the party and Hillary to do so, he'd absolutely be lobbying for the repeal of the Second Amendment.

People around here talk about Barack Obama like he's the anti-Christ or something. He's just another bleeding heart liberal who wants to throw a ton of money at ever social ill, and ban anything that makes people feel uncomfortable. He's half of America, and probably 2/3 of Millennials. The people who agree with him are dumbasses, but then so are the people that hate him.

 

[Steelin]

My mother had a neighbor who was murdered in East Berlin circa 1954. He had sold his piano and showed signs he was planning to escape. It was a dangerous place to be.

 

[Sarge]

It's about as silly willy as chasing rainbows and unicorns.

And yet, as a liberal, you do that very thing every day.

 

[deljzc]

Wrong again Del. 8.5Million people in the past 100 years were killed by their "Democratic" governments. Ya might try reading the paper before professing your intelligence.

So you're telling me those 8.5 million had ALL the other freedoms in our constitution, all the other checks and balances between church and state, all the checks and balances between legislative, executive and judicial branches? But because they didn't have the right to bear arms, that's what caused the 8.5 million to die?

Are you ******* nuts?

Oh... I forgot. You are nuts.

Again, please move to Oregon, set up camp with those crazies so you can all get swept away in one fell swoop, or better yet, try to "defend" yourself from those wicked federal agents that are after your guns, land, freedoms or whatever else you think and go down in a blaze of glory your children will be so proud to celebrate on your gravestone.

Please, just go. Here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is. Those hillbillies in Oregon would LOVE to have you. You know you really want to.

 

[Sarge]

I've shot clay pigeons on the banks of the Colorado River with a shotgun, I've hunted deer, albeit with a bow & arrow. I've shot handguns and rifles doing target practice. I never once considered people could get their hands on these types of weapons without proper background checks. But no, 'Bama wants to take our guns, let's oppose anything - and everything - that is put forth as far as tightening gun control laws. It's my belief that some really good people, with good intentions, have been led by their noses by the NRA and far right-wing groups where they've completely lost their grip on common sense and reality. I hope these folks, good people, at least the conservatives I know personally, can come around and agree that certain limitations on gun rights is not a bad thing, in fact a neccessary step in limiting gun violence around the country.

I've shot clay pigeons, deer, squirrels, doves, pheasants, turkeys, and an occasional robin or some other such bird. I have fought in far away places that people like to pretend don't exist. The boogeymen are real. They are in our country. They would like to kill us. While I realize that the odds are slim that I will ever be involved in any such attack, I will not leave myself defenseless against such an attack. If you wanna get on your knees in fear, be my guest. Just don't expect me to do it.

 

[deljzc]

There are many forms of courage that don't involve having a gun in your hands.

To think every non-gun owner would just bow down in fear is condescending and insulting. For all I know you're talking complete internet bullshit and done nothing but walked to the corner to get your mail the last 20 years. You're no more proven hero than anyone here. So keep the "I'm more courageous than you" bullshit off this board.

Every right-winger isn't more courageous or more patriotic than every left-winger. If you believe that, you are a fool.

 

[Tibs]

I will not leave myself defenseless against such an attack.

Who's suggesting that you would need to leave yourself defenseless? Who's telling you that you can't own your guns? Why does this keep coming up, did you guys all the sudden get summons in the mail to turn your guns in? Or are you speculating on what would happen? That's a whole lot of speculating....that's all I'm saying.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

Who's suggesting that you would need to leave yourself defenseless? Who's telling you that you can't own your guns? Why does this keep coming up, did you guys all the sudden get summons in the mail to turn your guns in? Or are you speculating on what would happen? That's a whole lot of speculating....that's all I'm saying.

They would if they could. I had a long conversation about this with my dad just today. That Australia thing, the Democrats want it. And with these soft little Millennial brats running scared of their own shadows, it's conceivable that in 25 years or so a major banning of weapons could happen. Look how long it took to make Gay Marriage happen. It started with little chinks in the armor, subtly shifting public opinion over time. Today a majority of Americans (granted, a slim majority) support Gay Marriage.

The Overton Window is shifting on guns, and gun owners are right to feel the heat. You keep talking like it's an impossibility. It isn't.

 

[Tibs]

The Overton Window is shifting on guns, and gun owners are right to feel the heat. You keep talking like it's an impossibility. It isn't.

The reason you feel that way is that you've bought into decades of propaganda - financed primarily by the NRA- that's been spinning that story. That doesn't make it real. I don't see a swelling of national sentiment that every law abiding citizen should line up and solemnly turn in their weapons. The notion that 'they're gonna come after our guns' is a disneyland fairytale. I think most everyone in the country understands the basic tenets of the 2nd amendment, and the tradition and history behind it.

The backlash against even mild adjustments to gun regulations - such as Obama's doing currently - is the culmination of years of fear mongering and scare tactics put out there by far right lobbyists. This perceived danger and fear then permeated Fox News, and it's been part of the right-wing conservative discourse ever since.

I ask again, show me one iota of evidence the federal goverment is planning to confiscate legally owned firearms, on any level, to any extent. It's pure hyperbole.

 

[deljzc]

They would if they could. I had a long conversation about this with my dad just today. That Australia thing, the Democrats want it. And with these soft little Millennial brats running scared of their own shadows, it's conceivable that in 25 years or so a major banning of weapons could happen. Look how long it took to make Gay Marriage happen. It started with little chinks in the armor, subtly shifting public opinion over time. Today a majority of Americans (granted, a slim majority) support Gay Marriage.

The Overton Window is shifting on guns, and gun owners are right to feel the heat. You keep talking like it's an impossibility. It isn't.

And I don't think those changes will makes this country any more a less democratic and it won't make anyone more or less free.

Just like I don't think people in Australia feel any more or less democratic or free than they did in 1995. That idea is laughable.

Only crazies define their freedom and democratic self-worth through owning a firearm. That feeling is solely American perpetuated by years of propaganda and politicians that are taking advantage of your paranoia.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Ok the US governemnt decides to subjugate its people and murder those who will not bow down to their gay liberal and transgender tyranny. Its you and a band of others there to defend your liberty with Assault riffles and glocks. They have planes, tanks, artillery and soldiers who are highly trained killers. How is this gonna go anyway. "WOLVERINES!!!!!!!!!!"

Just like it did in Afghanistan, where the Taliban turned away not only the Russians after ten years, but the USA.

I swear to God, the lot of you need to read some history.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

So you're telling me those 8.5 million had ALL the other freedoms in our constitution, all the other checks and balances between church and state, all the checks and balances between legislative, executive and judicial branches? But because they didn't have the right to bear arms, that's what caused the 8.5 million to die?

Are you ******* nuts?

Oh... I forgot. You are nuts.

Again, please move to Oregon, set up camp with those crazies so you can all get swept away in one fell swoop, or better yet, try to "defend" yourself from those wicked federal agents that are after your guns, land, freedoms or whatever else you think and go down in a blaze of glory your children will be so proud to celebrate on your gravestone.

Please, just go. Here's your chance to put your money where your mouth is. Those hillbillies in Oregon would LOVE to have you. You know you really want to.

And those "peaceful" demonstrators in Ferguson and Baltimore would...well...worship you as a hero.

If I've ever been around a low IQ opponent, you fit the bill. You'll deny all facts just to try to say "I'm right." These are facts.

Read the article Del. How many of those 170 Million died in countries that had gun control laws? When you've done your research, come back eh?

ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY MILLION people killed by their Governments in the past 100 years. EIGHT.FIVE MILLION WERE FROM DEMOCRACIES. Yet you want to squabble and say these lives didn't matter? Jesus H Christ you Liberals are amazing. "If we could save just one life" and all of that other Bette Midler horse **** you Libs spew. We're talking hundreds of millions of lives, and tens of millions. Not "a life." A one hundred year history that repeats itself over and over.

But you tell me I'm crazy for saying this could happen, again, for the what...100th time?

Who's crazy?

Puff puff pass Del.

 

[IndySteel]

And I'll repost this **** until you crazy naive bleeding heart Liberals stop living in Disney Land. On this globe, in the past 100 years, 170MILLION people have been killed by their respective governments.

Digest that.

You are fools...complete and utter fools...to think it "could never happen here."

http://jpfo.org/pdf/dociviliangunsdoanygood.pdf

They are complete and utter fools for a hell of a lot more reasons than just this one.

 

[deljzc]

And those "peaceful" demonstrators in Ferguson and Baltimore would...well...worship you as a hero.

If I've ever been around a low IQ opponent, you fit the bill. You'll deny all facts just to try to say "I'm right." These are facts.

Read the article Del. How many of those 170 Million died in countries that had gun control laws? When you've done your research, come back eh?

ONE HUNDRED AND SEVENTY MILLION people killed by their Governments in the past 100 years. EIGHT.FIVE MILLION WERE FROM DEMOCRACIES. Yet you want to squabble and say these lives didn't matter? Jesus H Christ you Liberals are amazing. "If we could save just one life" and all of that other Bette Midler horse **** you Libs spew. We're talking hundreds of millions of lives, and tens of millions. Not "a life." A one hundred year history that repeats itself over and over.

But you tell me I'm crazy for saying this could happen, again, for the what...100th time?

Who's crazy?

Puff puff pass Del.

All your ranting just confirms what I know of you. Paranoid. Delusional. The government is out to get us. The only real protection is a firearm.

THAT is utter bullshit.

If you want to debate other constitutional freedoms and laws (ones I think are much more important to our survival as a free nation) and whether changes are good or bad, let's go at it. But the relentless use of the 2nd amendment as some great bastion of freedom, democracy and ability to stand up to the government is an utter and complete farse. And I mean 100% bullshit that has been fed to your small little brains by lobbiests and politicians. It is complete scare tactics and you're falling for it hook, line and sinker.

While I don't agree with their entire constitutions, I accept that there are currently many FREE and DEMOCRATIC countries that have somehow found a way to still be FREE and DEMOCRATIC while having strict gun laws and, more importantly, finding ways to reduce gun deaths to 1/10th or 1/20th what we currently have in the United States. There is no logical or ethical answer for this discrepancy. None.

You continue to try and scare me with what-ifs and past examples that don't have anything to do with this country, right here, right now. Exactly WHICH example of those supposed 8.5 million citizens killed by their elected democratic governments am I supposed to accept as something that could happen here in the dear old U.S.A.? Which one?

Believe me, governments in the process of turning from a democracy into something else and unilaterally start killing or imprisoning it's population don't start by taking away guns. It's starts with taking away free speech, free press and freedom of association. And it does those things wrapped in Nationalism, bigotry and fear with the consent of the people (sound like many people here?).

I am damn hopeful we have smart enough people in this country not to go down that path which you think ends in using store-bought assault rifles against the U.S. Military. Because at that point, the game is already lost. Despite your delusions of grandeur, you and your "Wolverines" buddies aren't going to save the United States from itself while riding a white horse to everyone's rescue holding your beloved gun. And I swear there are million of redneck idiots out there like you that dream of that.

 

[Steelin]

It doesn't have to be "standing" up to the federal government. It could well be protecting yourself from one of their minions. It's all about the ability to protect your own. The fact that so many "civilized" countries no longer afford their citizenry that right is crazy to me.

Look at Switwzerland. It has extremely high levels of gun ownership. It is probably one of the least violent countries in the world until the flood of immigrants anyway.

In many european countries mobs are assaulting women at will and it seems the men have been castrated. Yeah that's a great plan of action.

Who is crazy again...???

 

[deljzc]

It doesn't have to be "standing" up to the federal government. It could well be protecting yourself from one of their minions. It's all about the ability to protect your own. The fact that so many "civilized" countries no longer afford their citizenry that right is crazy to me.

Look at Switwzerland. It has extremely high levels of gun ownership. It is probably one of the least violent countries in the world until the flood of immigrants anyway.

In many european countries mobs are assaulting women at will and it seems the men have been castrated. Yeah that's a great plan of action.

Who is crazy again...???

Listen to yourself...

"... one of their minions..."

"... protect your own..."

"...until the flood of immigrants..."

"... mobs assaulting women at will..."

Do you really believe this is happening all the time, or MAYBE, is it a bit of political spin to scare you? And do you really think guns are the answer? Guns are going to "fix" all this? Really?

Have you read Switzerland's gun laws? Everyone owns a gun but NO ONE HAS AMMUNITION! They issue every male a gun as part of mandatory military (militia) service, but once you're done, you keep the gun but can't have ammunition. That's why Switzerland has a large number of guns per capita.

This is the great fallacy of gun rights. They sell you the gun based on all the bad things happening in the world. All the violence that comes from 7 billion people on the earth and larger and larger cities with greater and greater diversity. Economic issues. Religious discourse. Government abuse.

But no one has proven that guns in the hands of citizens prevent all this or even help. Not once.

Everyone owning a gun in the world won't mean less violence. It would mean MORE violence. And every gun advocate knows it. Yet they accept this greater level of violence knowing (hoping?) in that 1/1000th chance that some government will try to persecute its citizens or enslave them or kill them and the guns in the hands of citizens will save the day (which is not a proven outcome).

It is the definition of delusional.

 

[Superman]

So if all legal gun owners relinquished their rights to guns and turned them in, along with all ammo, who is going to prevent some criminal from breaking into a home, raping a single mother and possibly killing her with a gun? Cops?

 

[deljzc]

And you have a delusional idea that owning a gun will magically prevent all that too.

I never once said everyone should turn in their guns. I think every home in the United States should own a simple shotgun. There is no better weapon to protect you from a home invasion, a "crazy" or a thief than a shotgun. Of course so do good security systems and high quality locks/doors/windows as well.

I am strictly talking to the crazy idea that the 2nd amendment really has some great impact on our freedom as a nation or it's importance as a deterrent from government persecution. I just don't believe that and think those that do are misguided and being used by political and business entities for their own use.

If you want to debate legal ways to protect your families, homes and property, let's discuss it like civil adults. Not pander back into the silly constitutional debate that somehow this is some god given right.

I am not a big fan of handguns or assault/semi-automatic rifles. I am fine with single-shot hunting rifles.

Again, let's discuss ways to reverse the arms race between criminals and civilians. That leads no where. Let's discuss ways to get illegal guns off the streets. Let's discuss greater penalties to people that sell guns nefariously or use illegal handguns or liabilities when your gun is not properly guarded. Let's discuss better safety features to prevent children from misfiring a gun.

Unfortunately, every single time this topic is raised the NRA and their legion of right-wing crazies gets up in arms like the government is coming for their shotguns and hunting rifles. It's turned into a joke to the point, I don't take ANY of you seriously. None. At this point, the only option is to ignore the NRA and the crazy gun-lovers completely and just get something done without you.

Again... you are DINOSAURS.... in another 10, 20, maybe 40 years common sense gun restrictions and reducing guns in our environment will be the norm. All your fist pounding and sky-is-falling rhetoric just proves you are at the end of your rope and in desperation mode.

The NRA and it's message is on the wrong side of history. That is so plain as day clear to any intelligent person that it astonishes me so many still are digging their heals on all things guns.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

So if all legal gun owners relinquished their rights to guns and turned them in, along with all ammo, who is going to prevent some criminal from breaking into a home, raping a single mother and possibly killing her with a gun? Cops?

This is a bad argument.

Japan's crime rates are a fraction of ours, guns have been banned since the 1800s. Moreover there are plenty of countries much safer than the US in which guns are banned.

A better argument is that it doesn't matter. Liberty is defined by how much a person can choose for themselves. Self ownership. The freedom to own, or not own a firearm is a measurement of one's personal freedom. I appose the drug war and other social engineering laws because they are designed specifically to whittle self ownership and personal choice down to nothing. It is tyranny by a thousand cuts.

I have no personal desire to do drugs or carry a loaded firearm. Or even own one. But I see the importance of preserving personal choice. If they can make the "what about the children" safety argument about guns, they can make it about weed. Or gambling. Or bicycle helmet laws. Or private property smoking ordinances. Or government surveillance. The **** just goes on and on and on until personal freedom is limited to absolute conformity to a politically correct state of "safety".