Is AB the best Steeler WR ever already?

[Steelers1]

How do you explain ward having one less td than brown through their first 6 seasons, even though he was targeted 130 times less, when Brown had the HOF QB, the pass based system, in the pass first league?

Ward playing with mediocre QBs may have actually helped his numbers. He caught a ton of safe short passes by limited QBs who did not have the talent or skill to go deep or open the whole passing game up. Hines became their safety valve and caught a ton of inconsequential passes.

 

[21STEELERS21]

I think you can hang a never won a Super Bowl stamp on a QB. I don't think it has anything to do with a WR career comparison.

 

[Stryker]

AB has already played in one superbowl, I'm pretty sure he'll play in another before he retires.

 

[fedderone]

They drafted WRs in the first round 3 times during Ward's career and he outlasted all 3 of those other guys. He was as resilient a football player as you're going to get.

No question, H57.
No dispute.
He also played with FAR less superior QBs for bigger portions of his career than the others we're talking about.
To me, though, rings are what matters most. It's why I give the slight edge to Stallworth.

 

[fedderone]

AB has already played in one superbowl, I'm pretty sure he'll play in another before he retires.

I HOPE you're right, Cope, but you're dealing in hypotheticals and what could be.
AB could pull a Bo Jackson and have a career ending injury. AB could walk out of the stadium and get hit by a bus. AB could find out he likes making commercials and promoting a customize-able sandal more than football and walk away after this season.
When his career's over, and everything has been said and done, you can argue these things.
You can't do it in the here and now and have a leg to stand on. His overall body of work NOW can't hold John and Hines' jocks. It's not even on par with Swann's yet.
I like your enthusiasm for him for his career, but the original question/comment is, "Is AB ALREADY the best Steelers WR ever".
No, he is not yet.
Maybe he will be, maybe he won't be, but he isn't already.

 

[steelerscotty]

Potential is different from actual accomplishment. I believe, when its all said and done, Brown will be the greatest Steeler WR of all time. If his career were to end today, however, he would be only the 4th best.
Ward
Stall
Swanny
AB
Swann is a HOFer and a super bowl MVP. If Brown's career were to end today, would he make the HOF? I don't think so (and i am a huge fan, wanted to draft him in 4th round) but if he holds this pace for 2-3 more years then I think he will be and will pass Swann.

 

[Stryker]

AB already passed Swann, a year ago. Let's compare the first 6 seasons of each HOF caliber Steelers WRs:

Player Rec Yards TDs
AB 526 7093 38
Ward 426 5053 33
Swann 240 3982 39
Stallworth 200 3568 31

There is no comparison here. AB is clearly killing it with receptions and yardage, and he's 1TD behind Swann. The first 6 seasons of Stallworth and Swann, they had a HOF QB, RB, and C on offense. The last 3 years, the Steelers were more of a passing team, and since they played on the same team for those years, they did have to share receptions with each other. Ward is also very impressive by eclipsing Swann and Stallworth in performance, while he played on a run first team. Ward was the go to player on 3rd down, and always worked hard to get as many yards as he could after the catch.

Career
AB 554 7462 42 6 years 4 games
Swann 336 5462 51 9 years
Stallworth 537 8723 63 14 years
Ward 1000 12083 85 14years

AB already has more receptions than Swann and Stallworth, and more yardage than Swann. He should catch Stallworth next year in yardage, and if he projects the same amount of TDs he got in his first 4 games, he can pass Swann this year. If AB stays healthy, and that's a big if, he has the ability to catch ward in 4 more years for receptions and yardage. The only thing AB lacks is TDs, and this year, he's starting to get them.

Even with the extra targets, AB is by far the best at route running WR that we've had. He moves like Rice in traffic, and nearly always gets space. He has excellent hands, though that is something that all of these receivers share. AB is also the shortest of all of these receivers. Good things come in small packages.

 

[fedderone]

AB already passed Swann, a year ago. Let's compare the first 6 seasons of each HOF caliber Steelers WRs:

Player Rec Yards TDs
AB 526 7093 38
Ward 426 5053 33
Swann 240 3982 39
Stallworth 200 3568 31

There is no comparison here. AB is clearly killing it with receptions and yardage, and he's 1TD behind Swann. The first 6 seasons of Stallworth and Swann, they had a HOF QB, RB, and C on offense. The last 3 years, the Steelers were more of a passing team, and since they played on the same team for those years, they did have to share receptions with each other. Ward is also very impressive by eclipsing Swann and Stallworth in performance, while he played on a run first team. Ward was the go to player on 3rd down, and always worked hard to get as many yards as he could after the catch.

Career
AB 554 7462 42 6 years 4 games
Swann 336 5462 51 9 years
Stallworth 537 8723 63 14 years
Ward 1000 12083 85 14years

AB already has more receptions than Swann and Stallworth, and more yardage than Swann. He should catch Stallworth next year in yardage, and if he projects the same amount of TDs he got in his first 4 games, he can pass Swann this year. If AB stays healthy, and that's a big if, he has the ability to catch ward in 4 more years for receptions and yardage. The only thing AB lacks is TDs, and this year, he's starting to get them.

Even with the extra targets, AB is by far the best at route running WR that we've had. He moves like Rice in traffic, and nearly always gets space. He has excellent hands, though that is something that all of these receivers share. AB is also the shortest of all of these receivers. Good things come in small packages.

As already said above, if his career ended today, he's not getting in the HOF and he has zero rings.
Stats only paint some of the picture, not all of it.

 

[madinsomniac]

As already said above, if his career ended today, he's not getting in the HOF and he has zero rings.
Stats only paint some of the picture, not all of it.

We overrate rings here... There are plenty of all time hof greats who never won a championship. Browns ability to create seperation and his precise routes are not matched by any of the three other hof caliber wrs we have had... The fact is he has outpaced hispeers unlike the other three did... Though each was special in their own way

 

[SteelerFan448]

Brown will go down as the best receiver in team history, but if the game is on the line, I know I would be throwing the ball to 86.

 

[fedderone]

We overrate rings here... There are plenty of all time hof greats who never won a championship. Browns ability to create seperation and his precise routes are not matched by any of the three other hof caliber wrs we have had... The fact is he has outpaced hispeers unlike the other three did... Though each was special in their own way

I'd rather have Joe Montana as my QB instead of Dan Marino.
Rings matter, they're not overrated.
I bet if you ask any player, past/present/future, outside of T.O. and Chad Johnson, that they'd rather have rings than individual records and stats.
Think of Elway just before he won back to back and retired.
He was a great QB, and going to the HOF, but winning the rings cemented him in the conversation of All Time Great.
If Marino even won one, he'd probably be in the Bradshaw/Montana/Elway/Graham conversations.

 

[MTC]

AB is not better than Ward. He still has a long way to go to achieve this discussion. As Coryea stated, ****** qb's and Ward was still getting things done. Another thing to factor in is no other player could get into your head like Ward. When he KO'd Rod Woodson. That hit started the whole Bal-Pit rivalry and Hines was front line in action going up against guys like Ray Lewis. The defense was less watered down just 15 seasons ago which meant bigger hits, better consistent football etc. I give AB props for getting things done now but he is no Ward

 

[stillwright]

Ward playing with mediocre QBs may have actually helped his numbers. He caught a ton of safe short passes by limited QBs who did not have the talent or skill to go deep or open the whole passing game up. Hines became their safety valve and caught a ton of inconsequential passes.

Wow....Is that what you call them?

 

[steelermania]

Brown will go down as the best receiver in team history, but if the game is on the line, I know I would be throwing the ball to 86.

I'm throwing it to 82.

 

[Wingman]

Ward is the best to date. Remember how Richard Sherman shut down AB completely in a game. AB is a very talented wide out and might become the best. He is not the complete player Ward was. Ward could be counted on to block players that AB would scarcely slow down if he had to play in that era. AB runs fantastic routes and has excellent hands, in those areas he is fantastic. Bigger physical defensive backs can take him out of games. Ward made defenders watch for him and actually was the reason for a rule change, just as Mel Blount was. When one is responsible for the rules of the game being changed that is a hard accolade to pass up by numbers of catches. So is MVP of a super bowl.

 

[madinsomniac]

Ward is the best to date. Remember how Richard Sherman shut down AB completely in a game. AB is a very talented wide out and might become the best. He is not the complete player Ward was. Ward could be counted on to block players that AB would scarcely slow down if he had to play in that era. AB runs fantastic routes and has excellent hands, in those areas he is fantastic. Bigger physical defensive backs can take him out of games. Ward made defenders watch for him and actually was the reason for a rule change, just as Mel Blount was. When one is responsible for the rules of the game being changed that is a hard accolade to pass up by numbers of catches. So is MVP of a super bowl.

The idea that ab can be shut down by physical guys is an outright lie... He gets triple teamed a lot... He is one of the best at beating press coverage there has ever been... Ward was the better physical player, but in no era would brown not be successful with his quickness and speed... And right now he is the bets wr in the league is a level ward never reached

 

[slashsteel]

The idea that ab can be shut down by physical guys is an outright lie... He gets triple teamed a lot... He is one of the best at beating press coverage there has ever been... Ward was the better physical player, but in no era would brown not be successful with his quickness and speed... And right now he is the bets wr in the league is a level ward never reached

When AB is slowed by a physical player it seems to be one who really pushes the pass interference rules, being extra hands-y.

 

[insaniti]

When AB is slowed by a physical player it seems to be one who really pushes the pass interference rules, being extra hands-y.

Or flat out tackles him with no flag. AB should have filed sexual assault charges after that game.

As for the "knock" on Brown for being average without Ben, that's just utter trash. You can't compare the games with Vick and put ANY of that on Brown. Look at the games with Jones instead, and you'll see Brown still produced like a top 5 WR does.

And for all the Ward had ****** QBs in a rush first offense, that's not 100% accurate. When we had Maddox, we aired it out quite a bit. We had Ward and Buress go over 1000 yards receiving in 01 and 02, and Ward played half of his career with Ben at QB.

Ward worked the zones well, always found the open spot, and was a hell of a blocker. Brown is flat out special, the way he goes in and out of his breaks, his hands, body control, and over all awareness is ridiculous.

Swann and Stallworth would have been solid WRs in today's NFL, Ward played both before and after the emphasis on defensive penalties, but Brown is special. Stats are great and can help tell a story, but it's the way Brown produces, with all the attention going his way, he's the best.

 

[Stryker]

Saying Hines didn't have a QB to throw to him is bullshit.

He played over half of his career with a HOF QB - Ben.

575rec 7032yds 48TDs AFTER Ben was drafted.

Ben puts Ward in the HOF conversation since over half of his stats came from Ben's arm.

I'm not discrediting what Ward did before Ben, but Ward only had to deal with his first 6 years (5 as a starter) without Ben.

 

[Coryea]

Saying Hines didn't have a QB to throw to him is bullshit.

He played over half of his career with a HOF QB - Ben.

575rec 7032yds 48TDs AFTER Ben was drafted.

Ben puts Ward in the HOF conversation since over half of his stats came from Ben's arm.

I'm not discrediting what Ward did before Ben, but Ward only had to deal with his first 6 years (5 as a starter) without Ben.

So Ward was what 28 when he finally got play with Ben? And Bens first two seasons we were still a run first team, so by the time the O was opened up Ward was 30 already, AB has had Ben and a passing offense from day 1

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Let's not forget what our boys in the 70's did in the biggest games. Here is a reminder -

 

[SteelChip]

Ben puts Ward in the HOF conversation since over half of his stats came from Ben's arm.

I'm not discrediting what Ward did before Ben, but Ward only had to deal with his first 6 years (5 as a starter) without Ben.

Which makes me think that it will be interesting to see how well AB does when he has another QB next year. This guy on BTSC has a point...how viable is questionable, but a solid point none the less.

AB will cost 16-18 million per year next year, and Pittsburgh isn't going to pay that for a guy who may or may not be emotionally stable.

Ben has shown that it doesn't really matter if he's throwing to Martavis Bryant, or Markus Wheaton, or Sammie Coates, or DHB, or Eli Rogers, or Jesse James, or David Johnson, or Xavier Grimble, or Le'Veon Bell, or DeAngelo Williams, or Fitz Touissant, or your mother in a walking boot. No point in spending a tenth of your space on a WR that can be replaced with a guy who will not cost you 15 yards for that third pump (almost) every time he scores.
http://www.behindthesteelcurtain.com/2016/10/14/13291182/enjoy-abs-last-year-in-pittsburgh

 

[steel dino]

All good points and the discussion of whose best could go on forever without a clear cut winner..
The only thing that I could add...is that I wish we were able to see Louis Lipps play with a real NFL QB...

This guy is extremely under-rated in Steeler history IMHO..

 

[steel dino]

Louis Lipps --and don't forget his first two years as maybe the best punt returner in the league at that time..

also his 16.8 YPC with 37 career touchdowns aint too shabby either!


Receiving

Year Team G Rec Yds Avg Yds/G Lng TD 20+ 40+ 1st FUM

1992 New Orleans Saints 2 1 1 1.0 0.5 1 0 0 0 0 0

1991 Pittsburgh Steelers 15 55 671 12.2 44.7 35 2 6 0 37 0

1990 Pittsburgh Steelers 14 50 682 13.6 48.7 37 3 -- -- -- --

1989 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 50 944 18.9 59.0 79T 5 -- -- -- --

1988 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 50 973 19.5 60.8 89T 5 -- -- -- --

1987 Pittsburgh Steelers 4 11 164 14.9 41.0 27 0 -- -- -- --

1986 Pittsburgh Steelers 13 38 590 15.5 45.4 48 3 -- -- -- --

1985 Pittsburgh Steelers 16 59 1,134 19.2 70.9 51 12 -- -- -- --

1984 Pittsburgh Steelers 14 45 860 19.1 61.4 80T 9 -- -- -- --

TOTAL 110 359 6,019 16.8 54.7 89 39 6 0 37 0

 

[POP]

Swann&Ward lwoB repuS MVP. Brown? End zone dancing. Great talented guy, but it's still early on him.

I'd also like to see how AB would do in the era when DBs could mug you all over the field, or even a decade ago when they could at least touch you with a pinky finger.