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My daughter's girlfriend asked me about socialism and communism.

wig

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I am particularly fortunate in that my youngest daughter, now 19 still wants to be a part of her parents' lives. She and her girlfriend (ya, that's right.) try to come over each evening to spend a few minutes with us, just hanging or chatting.

Anyway, my daughter's girlfriend is named Maria and she stopped by to pick some stuff up for Alli and visit with us for a bit. She asked my wife and I about socialism, communism and what the differences were between them. I pointed out that from a philosophical perspective, socialism is very attractive. Everyone chips in willingly to create a standard income base that everyone can live with and succeed. Some people will make more than that due to their jobs, education, experience etc. but ultimately everyone is guaranteed a basic level of income that keeps them happy and well.

I pointed out that Communism is essentially socialism on steroids. While socialism is government sanctioned and managed, the governments that utilize socialism are generally based in democracy. Leaders are elected and there are various checks and balances to maintain a stable, slow transition of change. Communism as a form of government employs the economic principles of socialism but pairs them with a dictatorial government structure. Communist countries are governed by a dictator or extremely small oligarchy that makes policy and compels the populace to adhere to that policy.

The fundamental problem with the socialism's economic premise is that everyone is guaranteed a base standard of living, regardless of what they do for work. In order to exceed this base, you must get an education, work in a profession that required additional skill or training or that is particularly in demand. This requires greater effort and investment. Unfortunately, the returns on this investment are minimal. As you earn more income, you are taxed accordingly in order to maintain or even elevate the base lifestyles of people "less fortunate" than you. Initially, this is acceptable. Despite the fact a person works exceedingly hard and has relatively little to show for it, that person still is able to enjoy the fruits of his or her labor and enjoy a life more comfortable and excessive than his or her peers. Over time, however this person begins to lose ambition. Furthermore, this persons children are born into a society that expects little of them. They enjoy a comfortable lifestyle, but they also see the toll that that lifestyle takes upon their parents, and as dependents it becomes easy to accept a less lavish lifestyle as long is it allows them to remain essentially dependents.

Over a few generations you have fewer and fewer people working hard to increase or even maintain the taxable income base necessary to support everyone at their current income level. Ultimately, this means you must drop the base level in order to sustain it. People comfortable with being dependents will accept this up to a point. But unfortunately reducing the base income for the populace does not actually solve your problem, rather it exacerbates it. You find yourself in a losing whirlpool spiraling down a drain as you struggle economically to generate enough taxable income with fewer and fewer people going out of their way to make significant incomes. This leads to fewer goods and services in the economy, which ultimately increases the cost of those services and goods. Unfortunately, as your revenue base is already waning, this leads to inflation and as the snowball rolls further and further you find that economically you are approaching a disastrous end. All of this is exacerbated by simply human nature. People will take as much as they can for as little as possible. As socialist countries are generally lead by elected officials, these leaders will go to extreme measures to stay in power as they are given free reign to the economic spoils of their populace. These leaders eventually become bloated, self-interested creatures of indulgence, thriving while their people starve but desperately refusing to enact changes as doing so would hurt their financial stability.

Communism, being based economically on socialism faces the same problems with the notable additional issue of dictatorial leadership. As the populace have no control over their government they become increasingly frustrated with the economic failings of the country as they have no ability whatsoever to remedy. This leads to dissent and the only way a Communist regime can manage dissent is to create a large and omnipresent military force. This serves two purposes. First it provides a means to control the populace and second it provides income for people who desperately need stability and support.
 
I should point out the entire conversation started because she's trying to figure out how to pay for college and one of her first takes on American economics is that "Billionaires have so much money they could buy huge housing projects for homeless people and it wouldn't even begin to touch their worth." I ignored that for a bit as we started talking more about her college situation. She got on to socialism because she said "If we were a socialist country, everyone could go to college for free."

I reminded her that there are SO many scholarship and grant opportunities available that the only people who have to pay much for college are people who simply don't put in the effort to find them and apply. Within 15 minutes I found around $76,000 in scholarship money that she could apply for and stand a good chance of getting. (She needs $18k for her first year.) I also let her in on the little secret - "All those scholarships? Those are from billionaires trying to help people." I also asked her if she was aware of how socialist countries ran their education systems. She was unaware of the fact that people in socialist countries don't just "get to go to college". You have to be among the top performers in your class to be accepted into a college. In Sweden you don't get to be a C- student and run off for free for a 4 year party.
 
Lastly I told her that here in America we have several programs and policies that are essentially socialist in nature. We have Medicaid and Medicare. We have any number of programs for people who are either unemployed or below the poverty line. But the shining jewel of American socialism is our Social Security program.

Every working American has put in at least 5% (currently 6.2%) of their income to Social Security since they first began working. In truth, every working American has actually put in twice that as your employer is required to match what you put in, which effectively means your employer simply doesn't pay you that money. It's part of your income, but they send it on to Social Security for you.

So, ballpark of 10% of your income (or more) has been put in to America's premiere socialist program since you first began working. The idea, of course, is that when you retire you can draw a liveable salary from the program you supported throughout your life with your taxes. If you have even the slightest concern that Social Security won't be there for you when you retire, or that the amount you can draw isn't enough for you to live on comfortably - you accept that socialism is inherently flawed.

Social Security isn't in danger because the money wasn't put into it, isn't still being put into it. Social Security is in danger because those elected officials can't help themselves from taking little pieces of the pie for their own interests. Socialism is ultimately a flawed system because of human greed. Ironically, the very reason capitalism works. People naturally "want more". Many of them will work harder for it. Those people, in turn are taxed a reasonable rate but not so much that they are discouraged from continuing to strive to succeed.

These people provide jobs for others who are not as ambitious, thus creating a natural "minimum income level". Sadly, because human beings naturally want as much as they can get for as little effort as possible, American debt has risen decade after decade. There is virtually no better way for a person to get fabulously wealthy than to lend $500 to 100 people and then have all of them pay him $25 a month for THE REST OF THEIR LIVES. Imagine it. You make an initial investment of $50,000 and you get $2500 a month indefinitely.

It is for this reason people with low incomes find themselves unable to live on $24,000 a year. Our entire economic society has become dependent on dept expenditure. You aren't meant to be debt free. Indeed in one of the most ridiculous twists of fate ever, you have LOWER credit rating if you don't have debt. Obviously that makes no ******* sense, but the fact is, you are meant to be in debt. You are meant to be in servitude of your financial masters. However, with capitalism that is a choice. You CAN pay off your debt. You CAN reduce your standard of living. And ultimately you CAN increase your income.
 
Nice overview, wig. A couple of additions.

The traditional economic definition of socialism is that the means of production continue to be held by private citizens, but the means of distribution belong to the government. Therefore, profit motive is removed from the economic system and (supposedly) market fluctuations are eliminated.

For some bizarre reason, Americans believe that Scandanavian countries follow some sort of "socialist" system, but that is simply a lie. Volvo, for example, is one of the largest employers in Sweden, and its means of distribution are decided by private citizens who own and run the company. The company earns profits, competes in open markets, adjusts is workforce and prices depending on sales. Further, Scandanavian countries have private property, private ownership of the means of production, and competition sets the prices and determines profits.

Americans also fail to understand that the Scandanavian countries have SEVERE limits on immigration to do away with a flood of millions of immigrants sucking on the public tit. Becoming a citizen of Norway, for example, is an expensive, painstaking, demanding process.

Get benefits if an illegal? Wait, what?

iu


Government-run economies are known for one thing and ONLY one thing: Horrible products, horrible quality, terrible ability to change, massive underproduction even of the garbage products and zero incentive to work.

I wager most of us have never been to the old Soviet Union. My brother-in-law earned a Ph.D. in Russian literature, traveled to the Soviet Union several times, spent 6 months in the Soviet Union at one point and speaks fluent Russian. He said the ONLY product that was never out of stock was vodka, that basically every Russian he ever met drank massive amounts of alcohol because why not, and that nobody gave a flying **** about their jobs.

Work hard, work overtime, stay sober? Get an ugly apartment that would not pass Section 8 housing standards, no car, no fresh vegetables, nothing of value.

Get drunk, show up late, and do as little as humanly possible at work? Get an ugly apartment that would not pass Section 8 housing standards, no car, no fresh vegetables, nothing of value.
 
I am particularly fortunate in that my youngest daughter, now 19 still wants to be a part of her parents' lives. She and her girlfriend (ya, that's right.) try to come over each evening to spend a few minutes with us, just hanging or chatting.

Anyway, my daughter's girlfriend is named Maria and she stopped by to pick some stuff up for Alli and visit with us for a bit. She asked my wife and I about socialism, communism and what the differences were between them. I pointed out that from a philosophical perspective, socialism is very attractive. Everyone chips in willingly to create a standard income base that everyone can live with and succeed. Some people will make more than that due to their jobs, education, experience etc. but ultimately everyone is guaranteed a basic level of income that keeps them happy and well.

I pointed out that Communism is essentially socialism on steroids. While socialism is government sanctioned and managed, the governments that utilize socialism are generally based in democracy. Leaders are elected and there are various checks and balances to maintain a stable, slow transition of change. Communism as a form of government employs the economic principles of socialism but pairs them with a dictatorial government structure. Communist countries are governed by a dictator or extremely small oligarchy that makes policy and compels the populace to adhere to that policy.

The fundamental problem with the socialism's economic premise is that everyone is guaranteed a base standard of living, regardless of what they do for work. In order to exceed this base, you must get an education, work in a profession that required additional skill or training or that is particularly in demand. This requires greater effort and investment. Unfortunately, the returns on this investment are minimal. As you earn more income, you are taxed accordingly in order to maintain or even elevate the base lifestyles of people "less fortunate" than you. Initially, this is acceptable. Despite the fact a person works exceedingly hard and has relatively little to show for it, that person still is able to enjoy the fruits of his or her labor and enjoy a life more comfortable and excessive than his or her peers. Over time, however this person begins to lose ambition. Furthermore, this persons children are born into a society that expects little of them. They enjoy a comfortable lifestyle, but they also see the toll that that lifestyle takes upon their parents, and as dependents it becomes easy to accept a less lavish lifestyle as long is it allows them to remain essentially dependents.

Over a few generations you have fewer and fewer people working hard to increase or even maintain the taxable income base necessary to support everyone at their current income level. Ultimately, this means you must drop the base level in order to sustain it. People comfortable with being dependents will accept this up to a point. But unfortunately reducing the base income for the populace does not actually solve your problem, rather it exacerbates it. You find yourself in a losing whirlpool spiraling down a drain as you struggle economically to generate enough taxable income with fewer and fewer people going out of their way to make significant incomes. This leads to fewer goods and services in the economy, which ultimately increases the cost of those services and goods. Unfortunately, as your revenue base is already waning, this leads to inflation and as the snowball rolls further and further you find that economically you are approaching a disastrous end. All of this is exacerbated by simply human nature. People will take as much as they can for as little as possible. As socialist countries are generally lead by elected officials, these leaders will go to extreme measures to stay in power as they are given free reign to the economic spoils of their populace. These leaders eventually become bloated, self-interested creatures of indulgence, thriving while their people starve but desperately refusing to enact changes as doing so would hurt their financial stability.

Communism, being based economically on socialism faces the same problems with the notable additional issue of dictatorial leadership. As the populace have no control over their government they become increasingly frustrated with the economic failings of the country as they have no ability whatsoever to remedy. This leads to dissent and the only way a Communist regime can manage dissent is to create a large and omnipresent military force. This serves two purposes. First it provides a means to control the populace and second it provides income for people who desperately need stability and support.

Tell her plain and simple. Communism decides your fate. No free will what so ever.
Socialism is an often misconstrued concept. I consider myself a libertarian and agree with our citizens who are unable to have resources to help them live a decent lifestyle. Downside is those who abuse the system.
 
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Socialism is just the bait and switch for communism. Marx himself said socialism is just a step toward communism. It has to be this way because eventually socialism and communism depends on going against human nature. It depends on everybody showing up and doing their best for the greater good in a job they may not want and with no incentive to ever do more than the minimum required.

Even in communism there are the haves and have nots. Communism has their own ruling class that lives in mansions and skips the bread lines. There will always be elites in any system. Even in nature there are alphas and betas in groups of animals. Workers and queens.

I would rather a system where success can be achieved by one’s own work rather than a system where success can only be granted (or taken away) by the government. Some may have a head start by being born wealthy but even those born poor can do well for themselves if they work for it. That doesn’t mean you’ll get rich. It does mean you can educate yourself, find a job that makes you happy (or at least pays you enough to fund hobbies that make you happy), and live a good life.
 
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Socialism is just the bait and switch for communism. Marx himself said socialism is just a step toward communism. It has to be this way because eventually socialism and communism depends on going against human nature. It depends on everybody showing up and doing their best for the greater good in a job they may not want and with no incentive to ever do more than the minimum required.

Even in communism there are the haves and have nots. Communism has their own ruling class that lives in mansions and skips the bread lines. There will always be elites in any system. Even in nature there are alphas and betas in groups of animals. Workers and queens.

I would rather a system where success can be achieved by one’s own work rather than a system where success can only be granted (or taken away) by the government. Some may have a head start by being born wealthy but even those born poor can do well for themselves if they work for it. That doesn’t mean you’ll get rich. It does mean you can educate yourself, find a job that makes you happy (or at least pays you enough to fund hobbies that make you happy), and live a good life.

True
 
In England, most of the wealthy were born that way. Same is true in France, India, Russia, Norway, and on and on.

In America, the vast majority of millionaires (80%) did not inherit their wealth and instead earned it.

3. What percentage of millionaires inherited their wealth?
(Source: Investopedia)
Only about 20% of Americans inherit their riches.
The rest of them, 80%, are self-made first-generation millionaires. Most millionaires have to work for the money and don’t get rich once a relative dies, according to “The Millionaire Next Door: The Surprising Secrets of America’s Wealthy” by Thomas J Stanley.

https://spendmenot.com/blog/what-percentage-of-americans-are-millionaires/
 
It is so simple.

Socialism is soft communism waiting for the right time to turn hard. I believe Churchill said that.
 
Just ask them the question. If every student was guaranteed a C grade and all got the exact same degree regardless of test scores, how hard would you study?

Now expand that to the workforce where everybody is paid the same. You don’t get anything extra for working hard. How productive would those workers be?

then show them this video
 
Tape, that footage looked like Detroit or Baltimore or Philly.......

Sent from my SM-N950W using Tapatalk
 
In England, most of the wealthy were born that way. Same is true in France, India, Russia, Norway, and on and on.

How about Hungartardia? I know that trolling, sniveling little **** says he was born in America, but I highly doubt it. Go slink back under your mud sludge now (again) little tard.
 
From post #9 on in here was money, gentlemen (actually the whole thread). Tape, if that video was of Benny Johnson and his crew traveling to Cuba, that should be required viewing for all Americans, no questions asked.
 
How about Hungartardia? I know that trolling, sniveling little **** says he was born in America, but I highly doubt it. Go slink back under your mud sludge now (again) little tard.
No wonder I've been feeling cramped & claustrophobic lately, needing to constantly stretch out my arms & legs. Cause it turns out I've been living in your head, day and night, on this board.

You can't seem to keep your mind off me, even in threads like this I haven't even posted in. Now that's what I call infatuation and obsession. Try to get some help.

And yes, I'm as American as apple pie, and as American as your ***** ***, and the rest of the brooding, MAGA ******* around here. Well besides the Canadian who posts about American politics from up yonder, but that's another story.

But don't let that keep you from being a paranoid, fascist xenophobe. That's your m.o., just roll with it. You got plenty of your ilk around here to bounce ideas off of.

A petty, pity party, the SN MAGA echo chamber. So sorry this is happening to you.
 
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In England, most of the wealthy were born that way. Same is true in France, India, Russia, Norway, and on and on.

In America, the vast majority of millionaires (80%) did not inherit their wealth and instead earned it.
Saw this in I think a George Will column years ago where he said that something like the 20 largest companies in Sweden were all founded before WWI. Not WWII, WWI.
 
What's the system called where the government spends lots of money, doesn't require taxpayers to pay for it and creates debt for future generations?
That's the system we have now. It's not socialism, communism, capitalism. Possibly freeloaderism.
 
No wonder I've been feeling cramped & claustrophobic lately, needing to constantly stretch out my arms & legs. Cause it turns out I've been living in your head, day and night, on this board.

You can't seem to keep your mind off me, even in threads like this I haven't even posted in. Now that's what I call infatuation and obsession. Try to get some help.

And yes, I'm as American as apple pie, and as American as your ***** ***, and the rest of the brooding, MAGA ******* around here. Well besides the Canadian who posts about American politics from up yonder, but that's another story.

But don't let that keep you from being a paranoid, fascist xenophobe. That's your m.o., just roll with it. You got plenty of your ilk around here to bounce ideas off of.

A petty, pity party, the SN MAGA echo chamber. So sorry this is happening to you.

Lmao, I knew that couple sentence post would trigger you. You not only had to defend being an American (like I really give a ****), but I'm a fascist and a xenophobe to boot. You even had to edit your meltdown like 8 minutes later. :pound:

Let me know how much I actually owe you for living in your head, and I'll donate it to your non-contributor status here, freeloader.

AllFamousArthropods-small.gif
 
In England, most of the wealthy were born that way. Same is true in France, India, Russia, Norway, and on and on.

In America, the vast majority of millionaires (80%) did not inherit their wealth and instead earned it.



https://spendmenot.com/blog/what-percentage-of-americans-are-millionaires/

Yep, ate a lot of Top Ramen and drove a $50 car (equivalent to a $500 beater today). I'm sure there are a lot of 20 year old's with work ethic today, but the message being pushed that everyone is a victim by the nanny state is disheartening.
 
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