Noll actually was adaptable. He went to the 3-4 defense in the early 80s...Lambert was not pleased, and incorporated west coast concepts on offense. I remember an early game against the Bengals in 82 where Franco had a bunch of catches, for example. But I wonder if Noll's mistake was trying to build an 80s team like he did the 70s, through the defensive line. Keith Gary, passing on Marino for Gabe Rivera, Daryl Sims. Rivera may have ended up being very good, but the others weren't much. His best dl pick of that era was Keith Willis who they got late if memory serves.
Noll, Cowher, Tomlin…fire them all!
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Oh boy, Hypocycloid has started a thread that may break Dri Archer’s numbers.
Chico, this isn’t a flame on you, just a different perspective. You have valid points throughout.
However, there will never be a consensus as even when Tomlin goes into the HOF (and he will), you will have opposite personal or narrative viewpoints.
Noll himself is quoted as sayIng when the last of the 70s defensive players retired he would have slim to no chances to get back into contention. This was back in the early eighties. Noll NEVER had to deal with free agency as it began in 1993. If FA was present during the 70’s we don’t win 4 Lombardi. As for that 1 pt loss to Denver, it was in the 1989 Divisional round, and only Rod Rust left as DC for a head coaching gig. Tom Moore was let go as OC. Replaced by the “great” Joe Walton.
Cowher inherited Noll’s players, several which were on Cowher’s first SB team. Not play turtle ball? You serious? Chin was a disciple of Marty Schottenheimer and used his “Marty Ball” method during his entire tenure. Barry Foster, Bam Morris, Bettis and Willie Parker. The fact that they had to use Ben because of Maddox’s injury caused Cowher and Whiz to give up on the Tommy Gun offense and revert back to the power running game, and keep Ben on a short leash his rookie year. As Ben gradually used his backyard playground athleticism the true successful offense game plan was solidified. Journeymen QBs? Stewart was an AP MVP candidate at one point and Maddox was Comeback player of the year in 2002. While I’ll agree the 2006 season was the result of poor QB play, it wasn’t because of the motorcycle accident. He had made a full recovery by the start of training camp. What DID impact Ben the first half of the year was definitely the appendicitis right before the season started. While settled down the last 7-8 games, he played brutal the first several games. He led the league that year in INTs. I will say, and die on the mountain it resides on that Cowher was cheated out on at least two opportunities for a championship from Ernie Adams/ Belichick/Brady/Kraft breaking league rules.
Same as Cowher, Tomlin inherited a team ready to contend. But played faster. He definitely overworked the players in Latrobe his first year, he rightfully admitted, which tire out those last five games including the playoffs. Yeah, he won a SB, lost a second one due to a Mendenhall fumble. Yep got to blame that on the coaches, not to mention getting them to the game. Funny how you say no coordinators to speak of, yet why would any new coach remove Coach LeBeau as you DC. If you had, you would be called a idiot. After his retirement, he kept the 3/4 defense but incorporated Tony Dungy’s (another HOF HC) Cover 2 with it and continued a top defense until free agency, catastrophic injury, and or retirement happened. On offense, sure Arians (promoted by Tomlin) gave Ben lots of success as OC, but almost got him killed in the process. Tomlin brought in Haley who really created the Killer B offense with multiple all-pros. Unfortunately, key injuries kept some of those B’s from participating in the playoffs when they were needed. Tomlin’s biggest fault was his stubbornness to be aggressive on offense. He definitely was aggressive on defense. Game plans were always the defense make splash plays, cause turnovers and get points from them. The offense, particular in Ben’s last couple seasons with Canada, was to manage the offense to not lose games, control the clock. Then have all the aggressive action come from the defense. With all the new offensive schemes proliferating under the continued rule changes which helped offenses score.
Noll took advantage of rule changes. The Blount rule, while the rest of the league pouted, Chuck had Terry open up the offense even more with Swann and Stallworth. Giving Franco and Rocky more room to run as well. Cowher and Tomlin both seemed to avoid using rule changes which will always occur. That’s why McShay, Shannahan and Lefluer are so successful. Their innovation is from challenging the rule changes, not the other way around.
Chico, this isn’t a flame on you, just a different perspective. You have valid points throughout.
However, there will never be a consensus as even when Tomlin goes into the HOF (and he will), you will have opposite personal or narrative viewpoints.
Noll himself is quoted as sayIng when the last of the 70s defensive players retired he would have slim to no chances to get back into contention. This was back in the early eighties. Noll NEVER had to deal with free agency as it began in 1993. If FA was present during the 70’s we don’t win 4 Lombardi. As for that 1 pt loss to Denver, it was in the 1989 Divisional round, and only Rod Rust left as DC for a head coaching gig. Tom Moore was let go as OC. Replaced by the “great” Joe Walton.
Cowher inherited Noll’s players, several which were on Cowher’s first SB team. Not play turtle ball? You serious? Chin was a disciple of Marty Schottenheimer and used his “Marty Ball” method during his entire tenure. Barry Foster, Bam Morris, Bettis and Willie Parker. The fact that they had to use Ben because of Maddox’s injury caused Cowher and Whiz to give up on the Tommy Gun offense and revert back to the power running game, and keep Ben on a short leash his rookie year. As Ben gradually used his backyard playground athleticism the true successful offense game plan was solidified. Journeymen QBs? Stewart was an AP MVP candidate at one point and Maddox was Comeback player of the year in 2002. While I’ll agree the 2006 season was the result of poor QB play, it wasn’t because of the motorcycle accident. He had made a full recovery by the start of training camp. What DID impact Ben the first half of the year was definitely the appendicitis right before the season started. While settled down the last 7-8 games, he played brutal the first several games. He led the league that year in INTs. I will say, and die on the mountain it resides on that Cowher was cheated out on at least two opportunities for a championship from Ernie Adams/ Belichick/Brady/Kraft breaking league rules.
Same as Cowher, Tomlin inherited a team ready to contend. But played faster. He definitely overworked the players in Latrobe his first year, he rightfully admitted, which tire out those last five games including the playoffs. Yeah, he won a SB, lost a second one due to a Mendenhall fumble. Yep got to blame that on the coaches, not to mention getting them to the game. Funny how you say no coordinators to speak of, yet why would any new coach remove Coach LeBeau as you DC. If you had, you would be called a idiot. After his retirement, he kept the 3/4 defense but incorporated Tony Dungy’s (another HOF HC) Cover 2 with it and continued a top defense until free agency, catastrophic injury, and or retirement happened. On offense, sure Arians (promoted by Tomlin) gave Ben lots of success as OC, but almost got him killed in the process. Tomlin brought in Haley who really created the Killer B offense with multiple all-pros. Unfortunately, key injuries kept some of those B’s from participating in the playoffs when they were needed. Tomlin’s biggest fault was his stubbornness to be aggressive on offense. He definitely was aggressive on defense. Game plans were always the defense make splash plays, cause turnovers and get points from them. The offense, particular in Ben’s last couple seasons with Canada, was to manage the offense to not lose games, control the clock. Then have all the aggressive action come from the defense. With all the new offensive schemes proliferating under the continued rule changes which helped offenses score.
Noll took advantage of rule changes. The Blount rule, while the rest of the league pouted, Chuck had Terry open up the offense even more with Swann and Stallworth. Giving Franco and Rocky more room to run as well. Cowher and Tomlin both seemed to avoid using rule changes which will always occur. That’s why McShay, Shannahan and Lefluer are so successful. Their innovation is from challenging the rule changes, not the other way around.
I have no issue with his resignation. My feelings were never hidden...
Remember Ben's motorcycle accident, not to mention his emergency appendectomy, he pretty much most of the first 6 games. Steelers also lost Antwaan Randle El, Kimo Von Oelhaffen, Chris Hope & Jerome Bettis after the 2005 season. Bill Cowher's wife battling an aggressive cancer while he was trying to balance family life, caring for his wife and coaching! They started a dreadful 2-6 but finished strong 6-2. Tomlin was gifted a Super Bowl caliber team! As for Cowher & the Steelers 2006 season I'll give him a pass.
Tomlin was gifted a Super Bowl caliber team!
Tom Moore left for Minnesota & Tony Dungy left for Kansas City. Noll lost all his assistant coaches. But the game was changing....it wasn't a seasonal game anymore. It was a year long commitment. Chuck liked his off-seasons and Head Coaching became a 24/7 365 days a year job. Saying Noll took advantages of Rule Changes with regards to Mel Blount rule doesn't lessen his greatness. That is pr00f that he was a smart coach and used the rule changes to his advantage!
As for Kordell Stewart he was a ******* AWFUL QB! He couldn't even beat out Mike Tomczak or Jim Miller for the starting job! In 2000 he couldn't even beat out Kent Graham for the starting job! Anyone who thinks anything else must have never watched him play. Half his throws were burning worms in the turf at Three Rivers. A tremendous athlete famous for one throw in college. Tommy Maddox was selling insurance before becoming a one year wonder in the XFL. He was terrible in Denver....the kid was drafted to replace Elway in the first round of the 1992 NFL Draft! He later played for the Giants and was terrible there too!
I'll give Tomlin his just due he was a better than average coach but not on the level of Chuck Noll or Bill Cowher. Will he go into the HoFame.....Absolutely! Do I like him? Yes but his coaching style is not for me! He's too soft! He was soft leading up to Super Bowl XLV and it cost us in the end as the team was not prepared going into the game! Tomlin had 2 non padded practices that week and didn't even have a final walk through on Saturday.....instead he made it family day instead of a final walk thru. While Green Bay had 4 practices, 1 padded practice and a final walk through on Saturday. It was obvious who was more prepared for that game. I can never forgive Tomlin for that and I do blame his lack of preparedness in that game! It was 21-3 before the Steelers even woke up late in the 2nd Quarter. That started a trend that would pretty much define the rest of Mike Tomlin's career!
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GREAT post Ike, I appreciate you and your great post(s) along the way. thank You SIR
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Tom Moore wasn’t retained because he took the MIN job as a QB coach/Asst HC title. He became OC one year later and then downgraded to WR coach. Rod Rust took the HC promotion and IMO the worst coaching decision Noll made wasn’t not appointing Dungy as DC.
You misunderstand my comments, it wasn’t a knock on Chuck and his action on the rule changes. He welcomed it and took made his team better from it. Sort of a “Lombardiesqe, fine change the rules, I’ll still beat your *** with execution”. That’s the mark of his greatness.
Kordell never competed with Miller for starting QB. Tomzcak took over from Miller to have a vet run the offense. Kordell was a rookie and wasn’t even considered for starting QB. He was used for WR, and gadget plays which started his “Slash” moniker. Had Chan Gailey remained as OC, I think Stewart would have become Lamar Jackson 15 years before Jackson. But, no instead he had to toil under Ray Sherman and even worse, Kevin Gilbride. OC Mike Mularkey with Tom Clements help got Stewart to play to his strengths and was 4th in MVP voting in 2001. It was Cowher who signed Kent Graham so as to solidify his Marty Ball offense. That was his decision along with hiring Sherman and Gilbride. Which wasted three years for Stewart and stunted his growth as a QB. I have to say the fans were hard on Kordell, and he had a thin skin. But it reminded me on how Bradshaw was treated before the SB run.
Maddox for some reason enthralled Chin at Latrobe and he gave him the keys once the Tommy Gun play showed promise. He also made Amos Zeroque the starter over Bettis and ruined the run/pass chemistry he had going with the Bus. Whisenhunt continued Mularkey’s playbook, but Stewart was already off the roster. Then Ben came along….
Had Mendenhall not fumbled inside the GB 40 at the beginning of the 4th Qtr, Ben most likely would have completed the drive with a TD. PIT would have gone ahead 24- 21 with the momentum. Sorry, I can’t fault coaches for skill players having turnovers, their primary job is to hold on to the football. But, alas, even if Tomlin got that second Lombardi, there would still be folks displeased for some reason or another.
Whatchyou talkin' bout Willis?
There's a few things here. Cowher struggled with QBs for a long time. He couldn't figure out what or who he wanted and never figured out what he needed until Dan stepped in and said to take Ben, otherwise the Steelers would've stayed with Tommy Maddox and drafted Shawn Andrews. You are spot on about Kordell/Cowher.
Cowher wanted Maddox to be his Kurt Warner and his trajectory was pointing towards that until teams started watching more film on him and figuring him out. I think when Zeroue was drafted, he was looking for someone to take the wear/tear off of Bettis and reduce his carries. We all saw he Zeroue had some flashes as a RB but not an every down runner. He finally got it right when he drafted Fuamatu-Mafala but he couldn't stay out of the hot tub, then signed Deuce Staley which was the right move until he blew his hamstring vs the Ravens. Staley/Bettis was the best 1-2 punch in the NFL until Ray Lewis and the Ravens kept punching at Staley's hamstring...then he took over the hot tub position.
I think Ben wanted to try and get MVP of the SB and tried to out pass Rodgers rather than keep the ball on the ground. They were killing Green Bay's defense with the run. Ben also threw a pick 6 in a crappy under thrown ball to Wallace. I think he threw 2 pics, plus the botched snap from Pouncy which sailed over his head. Spinthenfall's fumble was just the icing on the cake IMO. I feel that loss was mostly Ben's ego.
One of them if I remember correctly the G was pushed back into him. Anywho..
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Chico, Cowher was supposedly on the phone with Jevon Kearse when Donahue sent the pick up to podium to select Troy Edwards..... I needed a new TV that weekend...
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Out of all three Tomlin faced a league designed to punish good teams and reward bad. Noll couldn't deal with early free agency. Tomlin Finally got his QB and left before dealing with cap hell. All three coached in distinctly different eras and accomplished different things. I love them all. Tomlin did something no one else has he kept a team competitive for the playoffs every single year despite significant impediments designed by the league to do so. It may have been frustrating and eventually self-defeating but i can't fault the man for never giving up on season. He like Noll and Cowher deserve the Hall.
Tomlin isn't in their class at all. I wanted Tomlin in 2007 when they were talking about the candidates too.
I love the, "Tomlin took teams to the playoffs that had no business being there" crowd. Really??? He's had the highest paid defense since 2020, before that he had Ben, Bell, AB.
Yet people ***** about Cowher losing AFCC games with Kordell and Neil, Cowher took a team with Neil to the Super Bowl, won playoff games with Neil, Kordell, Tomczak, Maddox, and a Rookie QB, yet Tomlin took teams to the playoffs that had no business being there??
The Cowher had to learn to not play turtle ball to win, well that's just jumping on the narrative because he coached under Marty. The AFCCG in 1994 we threw the ball 52 times, and didn't trail in that game until mid way through the 4th, we were up by 10 in the second half and were blitzing still, that's how SD scored on those two passes, we were blitzing leaving our CB's in man coverage, that's the exact opposite of turtle ball. 1997 AFCCG, we're FG range, can easily run Bettis, take the 3 and go up double digits, instead we're still passing the ball, and Kordell throws an int into double coverage in the endzone. 2001 AFCCG, we ran the ball 8 times and threw the ball 28 times in the first half, again the exact opposite of turtle ball.
The thing Noll and Cowher blow Tomlin away in is building a team, and that includes assistant coaches. Cowher built and overturned his roster into a title contender 3 or 4 times, almost half the team was new from one AFCCG to the next.
I love the, "Tomlin took teams to the playoffs that had no business being there" crowd. Really??? He's had the highest paid defense since 2020, before that he had Ben, Bell, AB.
Yet people ***** about Cowher losing AFCC games with Kordell and Neil, Cowher took a team with Neil to the Super Bowl, won playoff games with Neil, Kordell, Tomczak, Maddox, and a Rookie QB, yet Tomlin took teams to the playoffs that had no business being there??
The Cowher had to learn to not play turtle ball to win, well that's just jumping on the narrative because he coached under Marty. The AFCCG in 1994 we threw the ball 52 times, and didn't trail in that game until mid way through the 4th, we were up by 10 in the second half and were blitzing still, that's how SD scored on those two passes, we were blitzing leaving our CB's in man coverage, that's the exact opposite of turtle ball. 1997 AFCCG, we're FG range, can easily run Bettis, take the 3 and go up double digits, instead we're still passing the ball, and Kordell throws an int into double coverage in the endzone. 2001 AFCCG, we ran the ball 8 times and threw the ball 28 times in the first half, again the exact opposite of turtle ball.
The thing Noll and Cowher blow Tomlin away in is building a team, and that includes assistant coaches. Cowher built and overturned his roster into a title contender 3 or 4 times, almost half the team was new from one AFCCG to the next.
Ummmm Noll couldn't deal with free agency, but neither could the other coaches then. Tomlin faced a league designed to punish good teams, if that's true so did all 31 other teams, it was a level playing field for Noll compared to his colleagues and the same with Tomlin, it's not like Tomlin was being punished as you say, but the other 31 coaches weren't.
Now one thing that Tomlin got pretty descent at which also was recognizing talent. He was also pretty good at taking the same talent and not developing them and playing them out of position-the list could be endless here.
Mostly because the QB had a near fatal motorcycle accident over the summer and got a burst appendix after he recovered from the wreck.
The fact is that 38 players and all but 3 staff from Cowher’s 2005 team were on Tomlin’s 2008 team.
Therefore, Cowher’s team.
Further amplified by the fact that Tomlin could not duplicate his earlier success with his own players and staff.
Never a losing season, greatest coach everrrr….
It's wild how hard that is for people to understand, and an 8-8 record is a Tomlinship, those people should be impressed with that.
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That was the catalyst for Chin telling Mr. Rooney “either change the process or I am gone”. Donahoe felt he was over Cowher in the organization. Can you envision the “Freak” playing under Coach LeBeau’s system? Oh my……
Excellent point. I’ll have to use that in the FB groups.
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Tip of the ‘ol’ hat….thanks.
I think he got enamored with the increased passing (almost 3k yards) and also including the RB in the passing game, of which Zereoue was more efficient. Then Maddox won APCPoY and through over 3k yards. The problem was it went against his Marty Ball control offense, which was gassing his defense as offensive series were shorter.
We all know Ben played poor in his first and last SB. But he definitely should have had the MVP in SB43. I think Roger was still Blacklisting him from the Milledgeville incident. Maybe if Ben would have been an accessory to murder he would have then received the MVP, a’la Ray Lewis.
I still think had that Mendenhall fumble drive ended as a TD instead, that defense would have carried the momentum to win # 7. That defense was still awesome.
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It would have been a treat for us to enjoy.... I still get aggravated when I think about it.... Also when the Jets traded in front of us to get Revis.... Another stinger...