Didn't think you had anything real to justify your position.
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Noll, Cowher, Tomlin…fire them all!
- Thread starter Hypocycloids
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I gave you all the data/statistics you asked for. You just don’t like the end sum of the justification.
Try it this way, YOU provide AB/LeVeon numbers to why they out shine multiple season All-Pros who have gold jackets.
Not even close
| Player | Career Games | Receptions | Receiving Yards | Receiving TDs | Yards/Game |
|---|---|---|---|---|---|
| Antonio Brown | 146 | 928 | 12,291 | 83 | 84.2 (StatMuse) |
| Ahmad Rashad | 139 | 495 | 6,831 | 44* | ~49.1* |
| Sammy White | 132 | 393 | 6,400 | 50 | ~48.5 |
| John Gilliam | 151 | 382 | 7,056 | 48 | ~46.8 |
| Player | Seasons | Avg Receptions/Season | Avg Yards/Season | Avg TDs/Season |
|---|---|---|---|---|
| Antonio Brown | 12 | 77.3 | 1,024.3 | 6.9 |
| Ahmad Rashad | 11 | 45.0 | 621.0 | 4.0 |
| Sammy White | 10 | 39.3 | 640.0 | 5.0 |
| John Gilliam | 11 | 34.7 | 641.5 | 4.4 |
Career Totals & Derived Metrics
Le’Veon Bell — Pittsburgh Steelers (2013–2017)
We’re isolating only his time in Pittsburgh (the years he was a Steeler):- Seasons: 5 (2013–2017)
- Games played: 62
- Total scrimmage yards: 7,996 (rushing + receiving)
- 2013: 860 rush + 399 rec = 1,259
- 2014: 1,361 rush + 854 rec = 2,215
- 2015: 556 + 136 = 692
- 2016: 1,268 + 616 = 1,884
- 2017: 1,291 + 655 = 1,946
- Scrimmage yards/season: ~1,599
- Games/season: 12.4
- Scrimmage yards per game: ~129.0
Thurman Thomas (1988–2000)
Career totals over 13 NFL seasons:- Games played: 182
- Total scrimmage yards: 16,532
- Scrimmage yards/season: ~1,271
- Games/season: ~14.0
- Scrimmage yards per game: ~90.8
Chuck Foreman (1973–1980)
Career totals over 8 NFL seasons (Minnesota and New England):- Rushing + receiving totals: ~9,106 total yards from scrimmage (5,950 rush + 3,156 rec)
- Games played: Pro Football Reference doesn’t list a simple career GP in our search results, so we infer from his seasonal data that he played about 103 games (1973–1980 totals from PF-R show 12, 13, 14, 14, 14, 11, 9, 6 by season on their page — typical career totals). This is an estimate based on season counts.
- Scrimmage yards/season: ~1,138
- Estimated games/season: ~12.9
- Estimated scrimmage yards per game: ~88.3
Comparison Table
| Player | Seasons | Scrimmage Yds/Season | Scrimmage Yds/Game |
|---|---|---|---|
| Le’Veon Bell (Steelers) | 5 | ~1,599 | ~129.0 |
| Thurman Thomas | 13 | ~1,271 | ~90.8 |
| Chuck Foreman | 8 | ~1,138 | ~88.3 (est.) |
Again not close. Numbers are numbers.
Career Passing Stats (Regular Season)
| Stat | Ben Roethlisberger | Jim Kelly | Fran Tarkenton |
|---|---|---|---|
| Seasons | 18 (2004–2021) | 11 (1986–1996) | 18 (1961–1978) |
| Games Played | 249 | 160 | 273* |
| Passing Yards | 64,088 | 35,467 | 47,003 |
| Passing TDs | 418 | 237 | 342 |
| Interceptions | 211 | 175 | 266 |
| Completion % | ~64.4% | ~60.1% | 57.0%* |
| Approx. Career Passer Rating | ~93.5 | ~84.4 | ~80.0* |
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Not even close
Player Career Games Receptions Receiving Yards Receiving TDs Yards/Game Antonio Brown 146 928 12,291 83 84.2 (StatMuse) Ahmad Rashad 139 495 6,831 44* ~49.1* Sammy White 132 393 6,400 50 ~48.5 John Gilliam 151 382 7,056 48 ~46.8
Player Seasons Avg Receptions/Season Avg Yards/Season Avg TDs/Season Antonio Brown 12 77.3 1,024.3 6.9 Ahmad Rashad 11 45.0 621.0 4.0 Sammy White 10 39.3 640.0 5.0 John Gilliam 11 34.7 641.5 4.4
We’re isolating only his time in Pittsburgh (the years he was a Steeler):
Per-Season Averages (Steelers)
- Seasons: 5 (2013–2017)
- Games played: 62
- Total scrimmage yards:7,996 (rushing + receiving)
- 2013: 860 rush + 399 rec = 1,259
- 2014: 1,361 rush + 854 rec = 2,215
- 2015: 556 + 136 = 692
- 2016: 1,268 + 616 = 1,884
- 2017: 1,291 + 655 = 1,946
- Scrimmage yards/season: ~1,599
- Games/season: 12.4
- Scrimmage yards per game: ~129.0
Career totals over 13 NFL seasons:
Per-Season Averages
- Games played: 182
- Total scrimmage yards: 16,532
- Scrimmage yards/season: ~1,271
- Games/season: ~14.0
- Scrimmage yards per game: ~90.8
Career totals over 8 NFL seasons (Minnesota and New England):
Per-Season Averages (8 seasons)
- Rushing + receiving totals: ~9,106 total yards from scrimmage (5,950 rush + 3,156 rec)
- Games played: Pro Football Reference doesn’t list a simple career GP in our search results, so we infer from his seasonal data that he played about 103 games (1973–1980 totals from PF-R show 12, 13, 14, 14, 14, 11, 9, 6 by season on their page — typical career totals). This is an estimate based on season counts.
- Scrimmage yards/season: ~1,138
- Estimated games/season: ~12.9
- Estimated scrimmage yards per game: ~88.3
Player Seasons Scrimmage Yds/Season Scrimmage Yds/Game Le’Veon Bell (Steelers) 5 ~1,599 ~129.0 Thurman Thomas 13 ~1,271 ~90.8 Chuck Foreman 8 ~1,138 ~88.3 (est.)
What kind of comparison analysis is this? You are throwing numbers together just to show volume in totality.
Where are Andre Reed’s numbers? Why are you using #2 receivers (White and Gilliam) in the analysis? Ahmad Rachad and Sammy White numbers were during an era that had absolutely zero the advantages AB had. Completely different type of game was played in the 70’s. Of which AB would have been killed playing against the DBs and LBs of that era.
Comparing RBs numbers in seasons totality? With the avg scrimmage yards used in the dataset. Really? Why are not the top five seasons being used for Thomas and Foreman like you used for Bell? Use the comparison table with Le’Veon eight seasons in the league, not just with PIT. The statistical exercise is simple, but you are conflating the data to fit your thesis.
Hey, I loved Le’Veon just as much as the next PIT fan, but to imply he was on the same level as Thomas is nonsense. Maybe he could have been, had he kept playing for PIT, but he wasn’t clever enough to make the right decision.
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Again not close. Numbers are numbers.
Stat Ben Roethlisberger Jim Kelly Fran Tarkenton Seasons 18 (2004–2021) 11 (1986–1996) 18 (1961–1978) Games Played 249 160 273* Passing Yards 64,088 35,467 47,003 Passing TDs 418 237 342 Interceptions 211 175 266 Completion % ~64.4% ~60.1% 57.0%* Approx. Career Passer Rating ~93.5 ~84.4 ~80.0*
What is this for? Who was questioning Ben’s numbers? He’s a future 1st Ballot HOF player.
Try again
Statistical Breakdown
- Le'Veon Bell (Pittsburgh Years): Bell’s 62 games with the Pittsburgh Steelers represent a historical peak for all-purpose production. In that span, he recorded 5,336 rushing yards and 2,660 receiving yards, making him the league leader in yards from scrimmage per game among players with at least 50 games played during that era.
- Thurman Thomas (Peak Stretch): Thomas’s most productive 62-game stretch encompasses his record-breaking four consecutive seasons leading the NFL in scrimmage yards (1989–1992). Over those four seasons (63 games), he averaged roughly 125 yards per game. Narrowing this to his absolute best 62-game window brings his average to 122.5 yards.
- Chuck Foreman (Peak Stretch): Foreman’s best 62-game span came from his rookie season in 1973 through the first 9 games of the 1977 season. While he was a pioneer of the dual-threat running back position, leading the NFL in receptions in 1975, the lower-scoring era and 14-game schedules kept his volume slightly below Bell and Thomas.
| Le'Veon Bell | 2013–2017 (PIT Career) | 7,996 | 129.0 |
| Thurman Thomas | 1989–1992 (Full) + 1993 (Partial) | 7,597 | 122.5 |
| Chuck Foreman | 1973–1976 (Full) + 1977 (Partial) | 6,957 | 112.2 |
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Player
[/th][th]Best 62-Game Period
[/th][th]Total Scrimmage Yards
[/th][th]Yards / Game
[/th]
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Maybe you should try comprehending the numbers better.
We will throw away Foreman’s numbers as the generational gap and number of games (partial 5th year?) Really? You are penalizing Thomas and Foreman because Bell wasn’t available for the same amount of games in 5 years?
Part of the comparison is availability…..that’s straightforward. This why your numbers are inaccurate.
Your calculations also appear to signify yards per game. That is not how a comparison analysis is performed. It’s Total Scrimmage Yards averaged by total Touches.
For Bell, the accurate statistical value would be 7,996 scr yds/1,541 scr tch = 5.19 yards per touch.
I have no idea how you calculated Thomas’s numbers. But based upon 4 years and his top eight games in the 5th year his statistical value would be 9,011 scr yds/ 1,632 scr tch = 5.52 yards per touch.
Using your method of scrimmage average per game isn’t a fair measure of his performance, as his yards per touch is much more indicative of the value he was to the offense. However, Thomas even handicapping his volume is has a much greater YPT.
If you use all of Thomas’s 5th year yards and touches, he still achieves a greater average even with 240 more touches:
9,595 scr yds/ 1,801 scr tch = 5.33 yards per touch.
Point being, I’m not starting a flame war over the infinitesimal measuring of statistics to define who is deserving a gold jacket. I was identifying your opinion regarding the use of players (namely AB and Le’Veon) to gripe about a coach who is no longer the coach. I provided HOF players with better statistical emphasis and who were coached by HOF coaches. AB and Bell were coached by a future HOF, and a first ballot at that. Le’Veon was a superb player in PIT, but he doesn’t have the longevity to even be considered in the HOF. AB was the best WR bar none for several years, however after leaving PIT, his off field issues became greater than his historical performance. AB could make the HOF, we will see what Adrian Peterson’s fate is next January. That could open the door for AB, but his off field issues are far, far greater than Peterson.
You can throw out your opinions of players who were great but without a championship, but be honest and just gripe and moan how you hated their coach. Don’t hide it under “any coach who had those players should’ve won four or five Lombardi’s”. Of which the head coach has one and went to another SB coming up short. (Save your obligatory, but he used the previous coach’s player drivel, it’s already been debunked ad’ nauseam.
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Great post Ike, really shows how stats can be averted to fit most any agenda/ pro or con.
One needs to be careful when using stats as there is more to the player than just what stats provide.
Game ERA is a big factor, especially during high rules change ERA.
Thanks for all your great post(s), appreciate yaz.
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So true Drink. Player ERA’s are encapsulated. Until some one becomes more clever than Einstein and creates a Time Machine no one will know how players in different eras would effect each other. I can say one thing, those who have respect for the sport and the players before them lauds those players for giving them generational wealth and identity. Watch Troy Polamalu’s HOF speech, and see what real players who respect those who played before them meant to play the game. You can see those elder players on the stage wearing gold jackets nodding their head with smiles knowing “that player could have played with us back then”.
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Ben - first ballot HoF
AB - deserving of FB HoF based on game performance, but multiple offseason and some in season issues will likely keep him out. Maybe he gets sympathy later on......
Lev Bell - great 5 year run ended by stupidity that hurt all; no real HoF consideration likely with short career, dumbassery and no SBs.
AB - deserving of FB HoF based on game performance, but multiple offseason and some in season issues will likely keep him out. Maybe he gets sympathy later on......
Lev Bell - great 5 year run ended by stupidity that hurt all; no real HoF consideration likely with short career, dumbassery and no SBs.
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If Warren Sapp can make the HOF, AB will definitely make it.
As for 1ballot, that will be determined by his on field detriment in relations to the voters opinion ions.
Will be interesting to see how the AB HOF plays out.
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I respect Mike Tomlin. Seems like a decent man, but he was a mediocre coach. If you want to point to the Tomlinships all I can say is the other side of that coin is having a hall of fame QB with loaded teams for years and showing NOTHING for it. Slightly above .500 with those type teams is not a virtue...no matter what the sports media and the sports jockacracy tell you. The first Super Bowl was Cowher's team and coaches....make no mistake, no matter(again) what the sports media tells you.
Barry Switzer
George Siefert
Mike Tomlin
Two of those names never got the testicle washing treatment Mike did with the media while having the same main accomplishment.
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I respect Mike Tomlin. Seems like a decent man, but he was a mediocre coach. If you want to point to the Tomlinships all I can say is the other side of that coin is having a hall of fame QB with loaded teams for years and showing NOTHING for it. Slightly above .500 with those type teams is not a virtue...no matter what the sports media and the sports jockacracy tell you. The first Super Bowl was Cowher's team and coaches....make no mistake, no matter(again) what the sports media tells you.
Barry Switzer
George Siefert
Mike Tomlin
Two of those names never got the testicle washing treatment Mike did with the media while having the same main accomplishment.
Excellent post Gildong Sack, appreciate you.
There is no comparison of Tomlin being in the same circle as Knoll & Cowher. Look at the teams, the play-off win/loss, and actual contendership of the team. ***** about the 80s, but there were playoff wins. The 70s winning amplified the 80s, Knoll didn’t suddenly forget how to coach.
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Long story short
Bell was much more productive His entire career in Pittsburgh.
No RB in history had a higher scrimmage yds per game than Bell in Pittsburgh.
Just a fact.
Deal with it.
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The story isn’t long, your interpretation of the facts are.
Le’Veon Bell @ PIT, career yards per touch. 5.2
Christian McCaffery @ CAR career yards per touch 5.8
@ SAF career yards per touch 5.6
Can you deal with it?