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Steelers are on the clock these players are available / pick 1

Barr is not weak. He is not afraid of contact. Maybe he doesn't have a great bench but he sets an edge when he needs to. He's not James Harrison. What college player is? Clowney isn't good at setting an edge either. Would we be complaining that he's not stout enough against the run if he somehow slipped?

I'm not nearly as concerned about the run than I am about the pass. Barr has zero ability to shed a block. Maybe it's weakness (likely, due to his embarrassing bench) or maybe it's some combination of that plus other deficiencies. But when a blocker latches on, his play is almost always over. Period. Honestly, his shedding "ability" made me chuckle a little when I first watched his film.

Besides, a draft isn't just about talent. It's about value too. Pass rushers are very scarce in this draft. You pass on Barr and maybe you don't get one.

I disagree fully on this. I see about 12-15 guys who look like startable, 50+ snap per game rushers throughout the first 3-4 rounds, and another handful of very intriguing mid-round guys to be had after that. If I know I can get a Kasim Edibali or a James Gayle or a Ron Powell in the 3-5 range.. and I know promising guys like Howard Jones and Aaron Lynch and Cassius Marsh will be there even later.. then I'm laughing at the idea of taking Barr in the first 20-25 picks.
 
I think the line backers are not that great this year. No need to take Barr with a high pick. One of the corner backs, the wide out or the tackle would be fine. I would lean toward the tackle with the upside to play left. If we have a chance for what could be a really good left tackle that is the pick for this spot. Lots of wide outs later, and good corners as well. We did the line backer reach last year lets not do it again.
 
Will be interesting seeing who the Steelers grab at 1. Some could debate DE and corner are the biggest need. So if everything equal I could see a corner being tops on their board. But then you have slip sliders. Peeps who fall that you don't expect. Perhaps one of the tackles for our new O-line coach. Perhaps a WR Steelers weren't expecting to be there. And you have the debate over Barr that has been discussed with good points on both side of the fence.

Then I think how I would love the Steelers to move down to pick up a mid 2 or a early third pick. If one of the QBs sat there at 15 that was highly coveted? A possible trade down scenario.

Many ways that is my biggest want. As the players hyped at 15 seem to be similar to the players slotted for round one and two.

Regardless the draft is upon us soon, and I am excited! Hurry up and get here.
 
What does draftniks talking up a guy have to do with anything? Nobody talked about Antonio Brown before he was drafted. Nobody talked about Tom Brady. So, if you were drafting right now, would you pass on Brown and Brady because nobody knew who they were?
Hell no I wouldn't pass on Brady or Brown but you are missing my point, what I meant was Barr is depending on what draft board you read a top 10 play and Davis wasn't. Davis didn't have big stats and big hype like Barr, that was my point nothing to do with anyone else Barr vs Davis thats all! Now if you want to compare Barr to Jordan from last year I wouldn't say anything but to compare him to Davis I just didn't think that was fair.
Nobody talked up Mike Mitchell either. The Raidres took him in the 2nd round out of nowhere. They paid him through his rookie deal, he left, went to Carolina and turned in a good year. He is now with the Steelers. So, it took him a while to develop. Great, that is very nice for whomever inks him to the 2nd deal. Me, I really do not want to be the farm team for the NFL. Let the Raiders do that.
I totally agree I do not want to be a farm system for anyone else either.
In the film I watched, he did turn the play inside. He kept his feet and held the point (for the most part) but it was OFTEN against TEs. Will he have power against LTs? His bench was very weak. I stated he had good instincts and that may be the biggest difference between Barr and Davis. Also said he drops in coverage well. But, not so sure he will be a great pass rusher in the NFL. In the USC game, he got his first sack with just under 6 minutes left in the game. He beat the TE around the outside and when the QB went back to throw, he knocked the ball out before it went forward for a sack/strip/fumble. The next sack, with just under 4 minutes left, he used a solid spin move to beat a LT that struggled with speed. But, where was he the 54 minutes prior? Only when everyone knew USC was passing did he get to the QB? In many instances, that same LT that struggled with speed or the TE had him blocked. They ran at him because he would loop outside and they would gash him inside. Seriously, just not seeing a guy that made play after play. He hustles. Works hard on the field, high energy, but I think he is a guy that takes some time to develop the technique needed to beat NFL LTs. In fact, Cassius Marsh would be a better choice as a pass rusher from that same UCLA team. Better developed pass rush moves. Hell, in fact, I might would rather take a flier on Marsh later than spend my first on Barr. Marsh is not some power guy either, but he has better technique.

Stanford also blocked him with a TE in many instances. Better LT prospect. He did not get a sack against Stanford. Against Oregon, he faced another OT that struggled with speed to the edge. In fact, looked like the OT had an ankle issue, saw him hopping around after several plays. First sack came on pure speed as an outside rush where he dives and swats the ball out of the hand of the QB (very similar to the USC game). It happens very early. Later, uses the same speed to get a holding call. His 2nd sack comes as the QB scrambles to his side and he tackles him a yard shy of the LOS. Still, even though he is facing an OT that struggles with his speed, when he gets too close and the LT locks up, he is a non-factor. In fact, several plays he gave up the edge. He was also moved backwards.
You without a doubt watch a hell of a lot more film then I do on these draft guys and that's fine I just base my opinion on what I have seen and read, am I right or wrong who know but it is just my opinion on a guy. So judging from what I watched and read I would take Barr at 15 all day long, twice on Sunday. lol! As for Marsh yeah maybe your right and I am sure there are a few players that will be drafted way past Barr that might/will end up better then Barr. The fact of the Matter is we have no clue it is a crap shoot as who will make it and who won't.

Maybe it is just me. Maybe I want an OLB in the first round that can find the QB AND play the run. But, I guess we drafted Jarvis Jones last year and he plays the run and cannot rush the passer well. Maybe this year we spend another first round pick on an OLB that can find the QB but may not handle the run so well. Then, next year we can draft a FS that covers but won't tackle and a SS that tackles but won't cover.

Then, we will have a team complete of front seven player that cannot stop **** and a group of secondary guys that cannot stop a pass. We would be complete.

Yeah cause that's what I want as a Steeler fan is to get a bunch of players that can only do one thing, not where I was going with that and no need for you to be like that!
 
I think offense is the biggest need. Watkins and Evans are probably gone and to me Brandin Cooks looks like the biggest weapon available both in the passing and return game. I think there is a far bigger drop between him and the 2nd rd. WR 's than between the 1st/2nd rd CB's. And the 4.3 speed and the return game contributes immediately.
 
I'd take Dennard and not look back. I think Carnell can work with him on his technique, and he'd bring some toughness that's been in short supply lately. Plus, I'm sick of the Ike Taylor stink-fest show, and the sooner that is over (I realize it wouldn't be right away), the better.
 
I take Dennard as he is the best CB left and can start Day 1. I then look to take the best available taller (no one 6 foot or under) WR in round 2. Both, could and should be starters this year. If that were to happen, I would be very happy with the draft. The players from 3 on will be icing on the cake.
 
Yeah cause that's what I want as a Steeler fan is to get a bunch of players that can only do one thing, not where I was going with that and no need for you to be like that!

Yeah, and draft pundits called Jarvis Jones a top 5 pick until his pro day. Hell, the Steelers were all thrilled he had a poor pro day so he could be in play for them. Mendenhall was a top RB and slipped to them. That really does not mean anything to me. I could give 2 ***** what other draft pundits state. I see what I see and go with what I see, not what some guy wrote and 30 others revised into their "own" work. In Barr's last two seasons, where he started, he had 149 tackles, 41.5 tackles for loss, and 23.5 sacks. Bruce Davis, in his final two seasons, had 92 total tackles, 39 tackles for loss, and 24.5 sacks. Davis had MORE sacks over his final two seasons than Barr did. He was close in tackles for loss. The only difference was in total tackles.

But, one thing eerily similar about the two is putrid bench press numbers and both appear to be long and lean players that lack core power. In fact, UCLA as a whole turns out a large portion of their players that lack core upper body strength. They are more known for skill position players and DBs. The idea that Tape states Clowney would be hammered because he cannot hold the point is pretty laughable in a defense of Barr. Nobody runs away from Barr. They will either allow him to blow up field and run inside or hook him down. At least the better blockers did, and when they did, he was a non-factor.

There are more well-rounded OLBs in this draft than Barr and the cost of those players is much more favorable. In college, there are some pass rushers that just run around the edge and use speed to beat their man. They get by in college, like Davis did. But, when they hit the pros and have LTs that can catch them or teams that chip them back to the LTs, they usually flame out pretty quickly. A less flashy, more well rounded OLB is a better choice because he is further developed. Clark Haggans did not stick in the NFL for YEARS because he was a speed burner, but he had an array of pass rush moves, could set things up, shed blockers, and played hard. Give me that over speed around the edge every time. Marcus Smith is a more well rounded than Barr. Trent Murphy lacks speed, but he shows the ability to handle coverages, hold the point, rush the passer, and can shed blocks. Then there is Dee Ford, Jackson Jeffcoat, DeMarcus Lawrence, Chris Smith, Adrian Hubbard, and plenty other potential pass rush prospects, ESPECIALLY if you are willing to wait 2-3 years for them to get there, like you would with Barr.

The whole prospect that Barr is does not cover the hole in his game. There are better players at other positions that would be there. In fact, if I were drafting and I were a 4-3 defense, I would take him as a WLB. That way, I can use him in coverage, not put him on the line so he is not manhandled, let him run and let him use his speed shooting gaps to get pressure. I see more Timmons than I do Porter. People are already talking about moving Jones inside. It has been stated that the loser of the OLB battle between Barr and Jones move inside. Great. A bunch of potential OLB/ILB tweeners we hope can learn to sniff out the QB. Just what we need.

Davis did not have big stats like Barr? Really?
 
I know I'm an island on this but when I watched Barr's tape (I watched the Nebraska game and another), I did not see a 3-4 OLB. At all.

I just don't see the violence or physicality in his game to play that position. Same with DE.

I don't see the repertoire of pass rush moves or the strength to do them. To me, what jumped out on film is just how great an athlete he was. Christ, the guy is 6'-5", 255 lbs., runs like a gazelle and has change or direction skills off the charts for his size. If he was a tight end, he'd be better than Ebron.

Right now, he doesn't have a position to me and that just makes him a very frustrating prospect to grade. To me, I see potential as maybe a weak side 4-3 linebacker. One that can press the edge and run down plays down the line of scrimmage or drop and cover a big area with his reach/wingspan.

The one player I do compare him too (and I'm the only one that sees this) is Brian Urlacher. To me, he's the only other linebacker that size with that wingspan/reach that compares to Barr's athleticism. I can't think of many others at all. Urlacher was 6'-4", 257 lbs, ran a 4.59 and had a sub-7.00 3-cone drill.

Just like Urlacher, I can see a team putting Barr at strong side linebacker first (Urlacher was listed as an OLB during that draft). Just like Urlacher, what I think is best for Barr is a move inside to a middle linebacker in a 4-3/Tampa-2 scheme.

Barr is uniquely capable of playing all three levels of defense. He can attack/blitz against RB's and TE's (just like Urlacher). He can play zone coverage with his reach/wingspan in the middle zones and he's fast enough and athletic enough to turn and run with TE's down the seem.

Putting Barr exclusively (or even a majority) in the 1st zone - close to the line of scrimmage - would be terrible for his career. I think he will really struggle. But make him another Brian Urlacher? I think that's the path he needs to take.

I've said forever, Urlacher in almost any other scheme would have been a good (not a great) player but Lovie Smith (who has pick #7 btw) and his move to middle linebacker kind of revolutionized that position, in that defense (bringing back memories of Jack Lambert - who was also 6'-4"+ - to all us Steelers fans).

I just wouldn't touch Barr in a 3-4 defense. I have no idea where to play him except maybe James Farrior's spot. I just don't see this "pass rusher" everyone keeps talking about when I watch Barr play. I don't see any real pass rush ability. Just an athlete.
 
From the tape that I have seen to date, Barr is not able to "walk the dog", as Butler likes to say, so I do not see him as a fit in the 3-4 either.
 
Based on his tape alone...Barr looks weak BUT quick and fast. I wouldn't expect him to start this year (except in sub-package situations). Remember, we are looking at a guy in his first 2 years playing on defense! While I certainly understand the "vibe" of Bruce Davis, the players are nowhere near compatible. Davis was over 2" shorter and still only had 19 reps (same) while running 4.78 (40) 4.47 (20s) and 7.34 (3c) while Barr bettered him at everything by a wide margin 4.41 (40), 4.19 (20s) and 6.82 (3c) it makes you wonder if he can still catch the ball :cool:

This being said, his technique is awful BUT he still makes impact plays. He has no strength for holding the point (but finds ways to do it with his quickness), he has no hand strength and gets locked onto when asked to hold ground (but rarely gets pushed back) and his pass rush moves consist of the outside speed rush and inside twist (where he end up on the ground alot).

The thing I really like about him is that he really is playing in a system that calls for him to be a 'jack of all trades" when he is not. I would love to see a game when his job was to rush exclusively. He really is raw being that he was a RB prior to the last 2 years. (I don't know how anyone regarded him as a RB at his size but I know he liked handling the ball). If he had some coaching which could enhance his game and some time to develop some functional strength, we could be looking at a Demarcus Ware type of OLB. That is why he is interesting. He is productive in a system that didn't play to his natural talents yet he still is a total greenhorn where the sky is the limit with him. His hand "swipe" is second to none in this draft and his outside speed is only matched by a few like Dee Ford. I think if he was able to get his strength and hand usage up to that of Khalil Mack's, he would be a better player. He certainly isn't there yet.

I would find it hard to pass on him because of our need for splash plays and turnovers coming from our D. I really like Fuller and Dennard is probably the most 'ready' although they both remind me of Keenan Lewis (who was the 15th CB drafted in 2009). The draft is deep at CB, IMO, and while we NEED CBs, I would rather take a few shots at the position than put too much on a #1 in this draft. IMO, there are no "shut-down" CBs so why draft like they are?

I like Beckham and wouldn't mind Benjamin either. Both would provide an 'element' we don't have at present on offense and could turn out to be special players. I am not scared of Benjamin's admissions of late and love his physicality on the field. We need some of this considering our most 'physical' WR has been a back-up most of the time. Beckham is a guy that can create space and make plays and we don't have that w Moore, DHB or Wheaton IMO.

Other than my own opinion, I wouldn't be surprised to see the FO take Nix under the circumstances laid out either. It wouldn't make me happy but I think they are hoping for help on the DL and Colbert/Tomlin have a penchant for thinking DL players need to be drafted high (I don't).
 
I'm not nearly as concerned about the run than I am about the pass. Barr has zero ability to shed a block. Maybe it's weakness (likely, due to his embarrassing bench) or maybe it's some combination of that plus other deficiencies. But when a blocker latches on, his play is almost always over. Period. Honestly, his shedding "ability" made me chuckle a little when I first watched his film.



I disagree fully on this. I see about 12-15 guys who look like startable, 50+ snap per game rushers throughout the first 3-4 rounds, and another handful of very intriguing mid-round guys to be had after that. If I know I can get a Kasim Edibali or a James Gayle or a Ron Powell in the 3-5 range.. and I know promising guys like Howard Jones and Aaron Lynch and Cassius Marsh will be there even later.. then I'm laughing at the idea of taking Barr in the first 20-25 picks.

Barr is a far superior athlete to any of those guys. There are CBs i like later in the draft. I like Ross Cockrell but that wouldn't stop me from drafting Denard or Fuller in Rd 1 because i'm banking on a guy i like falling to me later.

I see pass rush as a huge need. I like Barr's potential as an OLB. He needs to learn some moves. I think he's like Timmons only with better instincts.

I also see ILB as a need and Barr may be able to fill that role as well, like Chad Brown did.
 
Comparing Barr and Bruce Davis is only looking at the jersey.

Barr is a vastly superior athlete. But I do see similarities in their "perceived" pass rush ability based on sack totals in the Pac-10.

Barr could transcend position and be just good anywhere or he could be a player that struggles to find a position, doesn't ever really become good at anything and is labeled an underachiever after his rookie contract. He's right on that bubble to me.

If we do draft Barr, I'd worry (particularly for our organization), we'd bring him along very slow. He's already behind the curve on defensive smarts (because of lack of experience). What do you think Lebeau and Tomlin will expect? Might be two years+ of sitting and learning. Definitely longer than Timmons/Woodley. It might be years before he blossoms under Lebeau and then it will be time to decide what to pay him, right when he's reaping benefits. Could be a very tricky situation here with Barr. Possible position change. Likely change in coordinators during his rookie contract. Lots to expect from a 2-year defensive starter.

I'm sticking to my opinion the best place for him to go is Tampa Bay at #7. Lovie Smith would be a perfect coach for him. Patient and with a very simple system to grasp. I like the kid and hope that's his landing spot.
 
Odell Beckham.

The first round is not last year's draft do over round. The first round isn't a need round. The first round is the one where you get the best performer you possibly can.

Worst part of mock season Is the insistence that every major need MUST be addressed in the first. Plenty of 3rd round corners pan out. Plenty of 4th round defensive ends pan out. Take the best guy you can in the first. From TMC's list IMO that guy is Beckham.
 
Yeah, and draft pundits called Jarvis Jones a top 5 pick until his pro day. Hell, the Steelers were all thrilled he had a poor pro day so he could be in play for them. Mendenhall was a top RB and slipped to them. That really does not mean anything to me. I could give 2 ***** what other draft pundits state. I see what I see and go with what I see, not what some guy wrote and 30 others revised into their "own" work. In Barr's last two seasons, where he started, he had 149 tackles, 41.5 tackles for loss, and 23.5 sacks. Bruce Davis, in his final two seasons, had 92 total tackles, 39 tackles for loss, and 24.5 sacks. Davis had MORE sacks over his final two seasons than Barr did. He was close in tackles for loss. The only difference was in total tackles.

But, one thing eerily similar about the two is putrid bench press numbers and both appear to be long and lean players that lack core power. In fact, UCLA as a whole turns out a large portion of their players that lack core upper body strength. They are more known for skill position players and DBs. The idea that Tape states Clowney would be hammered because he cannot hold the point is pretty laughable in a defense of Barr. Nobody runs away from Barr. They will either allow him to blow up field and run inside or hook him down. At least the better blockers did, and when they did, he was a non-factor.

There are more well-rounded OLBs in this draft than Barr and the cost of those players is much more favorable. In college, there are some pass rushers that just run around the edge and use speed to beat their man. They get by in college, like Davis did. But, when they hit the pros and have LTs that can catch them or teams that chip them back to the LTs, they usually flame out pretty quickly. A less flashy, more well rounded OLB is a better choice because he is further developed. Clark Haggans did not stick in the NFL for YEARS because he was a speed burner, but he had an array of pass rush moves, could set things up, shed blockers, and played hard. Give me that over speed around the edge every time. Marcus Smith is a more well rounded than Barr. Trent Murphy lacks speed, but he shows the ability to handle coverages, hold the point, rush the passer, and can shed blocks. Then there is Dee Ford, Jackson Jeffcoat, DeMarcus Lawrence, Chris Smith, Adrian Hubbard, and plenty other potential pass rush prospects, ESPECIALLY if you are willing to wait 2-3 years for them to get there, like you would with Barr.

The whole prospect that Barr is does not cover the hole in his game. There are better players at other positions that would be there. In fact, if I were drafting and I were a 4-3 defense, I would take him as a WLB. That way, I can use him in coverage, not put him on the line so he is not manhandled, let him run and let him use his speed shooting gaps to get pressure. I see more Timmons than I do Porter. People are already talking about moving Jones inside. It has been stated that the loser of the OLB battle between Barr and Jones move inside. Great. A bunch of potential OLB/ILB tweeners we hope can learn to sniff out the QB. Just what we need.

Davis did not have big stats like Barr? Really?

TMC, you put a hell of a lot of time into this tip of the hat nice job. I do not have the time for all that I only watch a few games look at some youtube(which only show the good stuff) and read what is put on the draft sites and that is what I have to go on. You do bring up so great points that I have over looked and that is strength which really worries me. I think we already have that in Jones and don't think we need another guy like that. Also if there is talk already about him moving inside I agree I am not a fan of a team of "tweeners" and would then change my mind on Barr.
As for the Barr/Davis comparison what I meant wasn't from a stat side but a ranking side. I mean look a lot of people have Barr ranked in the top ten while Davis wasn't highly ranked. I mean I feel the Steelers took a flyer on Davis and as it turned out failed but nobody had much knowledge of him as compared to Barr who is getting a ton of hype. Now since you threw out Davis's numbers I am getting a little worried about Barr.
 
TMC, you put a hell of a lot of time into this tip of the hat nice job. I do not have the time for all that I only watch a few games look at some youtube(which only show the good stuff) and read what is put on the draft sites and that is what I have to go on. You do bring up so great points that I have over looked and that is strength which really worries me. I think we already have that in Jones and don't think we need another guy like that. Also if there is talk already about him moving inside I agree I am not a fan of a team of "tweeners" and would then change my mind on Barr.
As for the Barr/Davis comparison what I meant wasn't from a stat side but a ranking side. I mean look a lot of people have Barr ranked in the top ten while Davis wasn't highly ranked. I mean I feel the Steelers took a flyer on Davis and as it turned out failed but nobody had much knowledge of him as compared to Barr who is getting a ton of hype. Now since you threw out Davis's numbers I am getting a little worried about Barr.

I get that they were not ranked near each other. But, both were guys that used speed around the edge. Both had/have core strength issues. Both were lean of build. In fact, Barr has less weight on a longer frame. Barr's KEI is 65 and that is taking the good numbers from both his combine and his pro day. His combine only KEI is 60. His pro day KEI is 30 and you have to use his VJ from the combine because he did not do it, giving the 65. Still, his VJ was what propels him to a 65 as his bench and broad jump are just okay. Bruce Davis had a KEI of 61. Those just are not awe inspiring numbers for a pass rusher. Kahlil Mack has a KEI of 74. You want them over 70. Now, the KEI is not an end all of the pass rusher debate. There are guys like Jared Allen that had bad KEIs and became elite pass rushers, but it is a good indicator of core strength and if a mid to low 60s guy makes it, he is bucking the trend.

It is in those areas where I see the Bruce Davis similarities. Now, Barr can cover. Barr is more athletic. Barr works harder. But, while Davis looked more like a DE, Barr looks more like a 4-3 LB that would be better suited if he played off the line and got some protection. I think too many NFL LTs will rag doll him.
 
I get that they were not ranked near each other. But, both were guys that used speed around the edge. Both had/have core strength issues. Both were lean of build. In fact, Barr has less weight on a longer frame. Barr's KEI is 65 and that is taking the good numbers from both his combine and his pro day. His combine only KEI is 60. His pro day KEI is 30 and you have to use his VJ from the combine because he did not do it, giving the 65. Still, his VJ was what propels him to a 65 as his bench and broad jump are just okay. Bruce Davis had a KEI of 61. Those just are not awe inspiring numbers for a pass rusher. Kahlil Mack has a KEI of 74. You want them over 70. Now, the KEI is not an end all of the pass rusher debate. There are guys like Jared Allen that had bad KEIs and became elite pass rushers, but it is a good indicator of core strength and if a mid to low 60s guy makes it, he is bucking the trend.

It is in those areas where I see the Bruce Davis similarities. Now, Barr can cover. Barr is more athletic. Barr works harder. But, while Davis looked more like a DE, Barr looks more like a 4-3 LB that would be better suited if he played off the line and got some protection. I think too many NFL LTs will rag doll him.

TMC, I took the time and watched some film on him vs Nevada when he went up against Bitonio and I was like wow is Bitonio that good or is Barr just a speed rusher.....maybe both what do you think? After what you posted I can see Barr's strength is speed and his "strength" is in question and your right that is a worry. I am still interested in Barr cause I liked what I seen in his coverage skills and ball reaction but I am not as high as I once was on him. Thanks for all the info.
 
Barr or Fuller. With Barr, we can't have enough pure edge rushers. Fuller is the top tier CB we have desperately needed for several years now.
 
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