The Coronavirus thread

[Troglodyte]

What? That makes no sense. The pandemic is starting to come to an end because of the total numbers, not because vaccine immunity is better or lasts longer than natural immunity. It might be, or the reverse might be true. Nobody knows.

The vaccine provides a certainty of antibodies, having had Covid does not.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Welp, here we go. As stated, the longer time goes on, the more we learn - we will realize that masking and lockdowns were the absolute wrong approaches.

@Troglodyte and @Tibs aren't gonna like this. They will attempt to call it bullshit. Because it is heresy to the Church of Leftism.

But it's real science, not the 59-gender science.

Masks Didn't Slow COVID Spread: New Study

New findings reported Tuesday in a University of Louisville study challenge what has been the prevailing belief that mask mandates are necessary to slow the spread of the Wuhan coronavirus.

townhall.com

New findings reported Tuesday in a University of Louisville study challenge what has been the prevailing belief that mask mandates are necessary to slow the spread of the Wuhan coronavirus. The study notes that "80% of US states mandated masks during the COVID-19 pandemic" and while "mandates induced greater mask compliance, [they] did not predict lower growth rates when community spread was low (minima) or high (maxima)." Among other things, the study—conducted using data from the CDC covering multiple seasons—reports that "mask mandates and use are not associated with lower SARS-CoV-2 spread among US states."



"Our findings do not support the hypothesis that SARS-CoV-2 transmission rates decrease with greater public mask use," notes the U of L report. Researchers stated that "masks may promote social cohesion as rallying symbols during a pandemic, but risk compensation can also occur" before listing some observed risks that accompany mask wearing:

Prolonged mask use (>4 hours per day) promotes facial alkalinization and inadvertently encourages dehydration, which in turn can enhance barrier breakdown and bacterial infection risk. British clinicians have reported masks to increase headaches and sweating and decrease cognitive precision. Survey bias notwithstanding, these sequelae are associated with medical errors. By obscuring nonverbal communication, masks interfere with social learning in children. Likewise, masks can distort verbal speech and remove visual cues to the detriment of individuals with hearing loss; clear face-shields improve visual integration, but there is a corresponding loss of sound quality.

The study also noted that the mandates put in place by many states in line with CDC guidance at the time were "poor predictors of COVID-19 spread," according to the research:

In summary, mask mandates and use were poor predictors of COVID-19 spread in US states. Case growth was independent of mandates at low and high rates of community spread, and mask use did not predict case growth during the Summer or Fall-Winter waves. Strengths of our study include using two mask metrics to evaluate association with COVID-19 growth rates; measuring normalized case growth in mandate and non-mandate states at comparable times to quantify the likely effect of mandates; and deconvolving the effect of mask use by examining case growth in states with variable mask use.

------------------

Here's a link to the full study: https://www.medrxiv.org/content/10.1101/2021.05.18.21257385v1.full.pdf

Expect many more of these to emerge.

 

[oneforthebus]

The vaccine provides a certainty of antibodies, having had Covid does not.

Where did you get that tidbit of information? Care to provide a link?

But even if it were true who cares? Are we getting a vaccine so we can measure our antibodies or are we getting a vaccine to prevent infection and illness? Reinfection after getting covid is possible, but rare. Infection after getting the vaccine is possible, but rare. WTF is the difference?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

The vaccine provides a certainty of antibodies, having had Covid does not.

WTF??? Are you seriously that dumb? Millions have been studied for over a year. 0.6% chance of reinfection, right in line with people who have had the vaccines and gotten reinfected. Yet you ignore all of this and show up here saying somehow the vaccine gives one EXTRA super-duper Wonder Twin Powers defenses??????

Provide evidence that a person having had COVID does NOT produce antibodies.....that the vaccines do

PROVE this one. Go on....back it up.

 

[Troglodyte]

It's really not. This is from the CDC's website: "Yes, you should be vaccinated regardless of whether you already had COVID-19. That’s because experts do not yet know how long you are protected from getting sick again after recovering from COVID-19."

They don't know. What they do know is that at this point: "Even if you have already recovered from COVID-19, it is possible—although rare—that you could be infected with the virus that causes COVID-19 again."

So the fact that reinfection is still rare tells us that the antibodies (or T-cells, whatever is giving people natural immunity) are lasting at least a year. Could be longer. Could be forever.

Know what else they don't know? How long immunity from the vaccines last. Hence the possibility of boosters or even annual shots.

Know what else is possible, although rare? Getting covid after getting the vaccine.

Personally I would feel quite comfortable not being vaccinated after having covid. The only reason I got the vaccine is to be able to do things vaccinated people are allowed to do because our stupid governments are not following the science on natural immunity. And to help get the vaccine numbers up so we can go back to living normal lives. In terms of my own health I wouldn't have bothered because all evidence to this point shows that my natural immunity is at least equal to what is currently known about vaccine immunity.

Reinfection is rare as it requires both the loss of antibodies AND re-exposure to the virus. Less rare is only the loss of antibodies.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

The vaccine provides a certainty of antibodies, having had Covid does not.

LMAO...I go to my news feed service, and this is a top story...after replying to you a couple of minutes ago. "The ball don't lie" as they say (you won't understand this)

You can now politely STFU about immunity. Natural immunity appears to be better than the vaccine. Which also further suggests we would have been better off not locking everyone down.

Mild coronavirus infection leaves behind lasting antibody protection, research suggests

Even a mild case of coronavirus could leave people with lifelong protection against the virus, a new study suggests, with researchers calling previous reports that immunity was not long-lived following infection “a misinterpretation of the data.”

www.foxnews.com

Mild coronavirus infection leaves behind lasting antibody protection, research suggests​

The team is currently studying whether COVID-19 vaccines also induce long-lived antibody-producing cells​

Even a mild case of coronavirus could leave people with lifelong protection against the virus, a new study suggests, with researchers calling previous reports that immunity was not long-lived following infection "a misinterpretation of the data."

In the study, conducted by Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis and published May 24 in the journal Nature, researchers took bone marrow samples from 18 out of 77 participants who were already signed up to give blood samples at three-month intervals starting about a month after initial infection. The bone marrow samples were taken between seven and eight months after initial COVID infection. Five of the 18 participants then gave second bone marrow samples four months later.

The team compared those samples with bone marrow taken from 11 people who had never been diagnosed with COVID-19.

While antibody levels in the blood of people who had previous infections did drop quickly in the first few months before mostly leveling off, some antibodies were detectable even 11 months after infection. Researchers also found antibody-producing cells specifically targeting SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, in 15 of the bone marrow samples. The cells were also found in all five of the follow-up samples given four months later.

The researchers said the cells are "quiescent, just sitting in the bone marrow and secreting antibodies."

"Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived," Ali Ellebedy, PhD., an associate professor of pathology and immunology of medicine and of molecular microbiology, and senior author said in a news release. "But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity."

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Reinfection is rare as it requires both the loss of antibodies AND re-exposure to the virus. Less rare is only the loss of antibodies.

As I said, you can now STFU about reinfections and antibodies: https://www.steelernation.com/forums/threads/the-coronavirus-thread.34219/post-823225

 

[Troglodyte]

Where did you get that tidbit of information? Care to provide a link?

But even if it were true who cares? Are we getting a vaccine so we can measure our antibodies or are we getting a vaccine to prevent infection and illness? Reinfection after getting covid is possible, but rare. Infection after getting the vaccine is possible, but rare. WTF is the difference?

Precisely. We’re not measuring antibodies. What about the CDC guidance that YOU posted don’t you get?

 

[Troglodyte]

LMAO...I go to my news feed service, and this is a top story...after replying to you a couple of minutes ago. "The ball don't lie" as they say (you won't understand this)

You can now politely STFU about immunity. Natural immunity appears to be better than the vaccine. Which also further suggests we would have been better off not locking everyone down.

Mild coronavirus infection leaves behind lasting antibody protection, research suggests

Even a mild case of coronavirus could leave people with lifelong protection against the virus, a new study suggests, with researchers calling previous reports that immunity was not long-lived following infection “a misinterpretation of the data.”

www.foxnews.com

Mild coronavirus infection leaves behind lasting antibody protection, research suggests​

The team is currently studying whether COVID-19 vaccines also induce long-lived antibody-producing cells​

Even a mild case of coronavirus could leave people with lifelong protection against the virus, a new study suggests, with researchers calling previous reports that immunity was not long-lived following infection "a misinterpretation of the data."

In the study, conducted by Washington University School of Medicine in St. Louis and published May 24 in the journal Nature, researchers took bone marrow samples from 18 out of 77 participants who were already signed up to give blood samples at three-month intervals starting about a month after initial infection. The bone marrow samples were taken between seven and eight months after initial COVID infection. Five of the 18 participants then gave second bone marrow samples four months later.

The team compared those samples with bone marrow taken from 11 people who had never been diagnosed with COVID-19.

While antibody levels in the blood of people who had previous infections did drop quickly in the first few months before mostly leveling off, some antibodies were detectable even 11 months after infection. Researchers also found antibody-producing cells specifically targeting SARS-CoV-2, the virus that causes COVID-19, in 15 of the bone marrow samples. The cells were also found in all five of the follow-up samples given four months later.

The researchers said the cells are "quiescent, just sitting in the bone marrow and secreting antibodies."

"Last fall, there were reports that antibodies wane quickly after infection with the virus that causes COVID-19, and mainstream media interpreted that to mean that immunity was not long-lived," Ali Ellebedy, PhD., an associate professor of pathology and immunology of medicine and of molecular microbiology, and senior author said in a news release. "But that’s a misinterpretation of the data. It’s normal for antibody levels to go down after acute infection, but they don’t go down to zero; they plateau. Here, we found antibody-producing cells in people 11 months after first symptoms. These cells will live and produce antibodies for the rest of people’s lives. That’s strong evidence for long-lasting immunity."

Now ask the same team if you still need to get vaccinated even if you’ve had Covid and they will say “Yes, you do.”

 

[oneforthebus]

Reinfection is rare as it requires both the loss of antibodies AND re-exposure to the virus. Less rare is only the loss of antibodies.

Good lord, your obsession with antibodies is comical. Immunity is what's important, not just antibody levels.

SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans

Long-lived bone marrow plasma cells (BMPCs) are a persistent and essential source of protective antibodies1–7. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) convalescent individuals have a significantly lower risk of reinfection8–10. Nonetheless, it has been reported that...

www.nature.com

• Published: 24 May 2021

SARS-CoV-2 infection induces long-lived bone marrow plasma cells in humans​

Abstract​

Long-lived bone marrow plasma cells (BMPCs) are a persistent and essential source of protective antibodies1–7. Severe acute respiratory syndrome coronavirus 2 (SARS-CoV-2) convalescent individuals have a significantly lower risk of reinfection8–10. Nonetheless, it has been reported that anti-SARS-CoV-2 serum antibodies experience rapid decay in the first few months after infection, raising concerns that long-lived BMPCs may not be generated and humoral immunity against this virus may be short-lived11–13. Here we demonstrate that in patients who experienced mild infections (n=77), serum anti-SARS-CoV-2 spike (S) antibodies decline rapidly in the first 4 months after infection and then more gradually over the following 7 months, remaining detectable at least 11 months after infection. Anti-S antibody titers correlated with the frequency of S-specific BMPCs obtained from bone marrow aspirates of 18 SARS-CoV-2 convalescent patients 7 to 8 months after infection. S-specific BMPCs were not detected in aspirates from 11 healthy subjects with no history of SARS-CoV-2 infection. We demonstrate that S-binding BMPCs are quiescent, indicating that they are part of a long-lived compartment. Consistently, circulating resting memory B cells directed against the S protein were detected in the convalescent individuals. Overall, we show that SARS-CoV-2 infection induces a robust antigen-specific, long-lived humoral immune response in humans.

 

[oneforthebus]

Lasting immunity found after recovery from COVID-19

The immune systems of more than 95% of people who recovered from COVID-19 had durable memories of the virus up to eight months after infection.

www.nih.gov

The researchers found durable immune responses in the majority of people studied. Antibodies against the spike protein of SARS-CoV-2, which the virus uses to get inside cells, were found in 98% of participants one month after symptom onset. As seen in previous studies, the number of antibodies ranged widely between individuals. But, promisingly, their levels remained fairly stable over time, declining only modestly at 6 to 8 months after infection.

Virus-specific B cells increased over time. People had more memory B cells six months after symptom onset than at one month afterwards. Although the number of these cells appeared to reach a plateau after a few months, levels didn’t decline over the period studied.

Levels of T cells for the virus also remained high after infection. Six months after symptom onset, 92% of participants had CD4+ T cells that recognized the virus. These cells help coordinate the immune response. About half the participants had CD8+ T cells, which kill cells that are infected by the virus.

As with antibodies, the numbers of different immune cell types varied substantially between individuals. Neither gender nor differences in disease severity could account for this variability. However, 95% of the people had at least 3 out of 5 immune-system components that could recognize SARS-CoV-2 up to 8 months after infection.

“Several months ago, our studies showed that natural infection induced a strong response, and this study now shows that the responses last,” Weiskopf says. “We are hopeful that a similar pattern of responses lasting over time will also emerge for the vaccine-induced responses.”

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Now ask the same team if you still need to get vaccinated even if you’ve had Covid and they will say “Yes, you do.”

Thank you for your concession and admission of defeat.

 

[oneforthebus]

Precisely. We’re not measuring antibodies. What about the CDC guidance that YOU posted don’t you get?

I get that the CDC is months behind the actual science in issuing guidance as it has been all along. Government bureaucracy for you.

Memba when Uncle Joe told us we could maybe have small outdoor gatherings without masks by July 4th? LOL.

 

[oneforthebus]

Still waiting for the "vaccine provides certainty of antibodies and infection does not" link. I guess I better make myself comfortable, it's gonna be awhile.

 

[Steeltime]

So to sum of Floggy Manbun's compelling scientific arguments in response to the actual research papers from peer-reviewed medical journals:

• "Natural antibodies to the Chinese flu don't last long."
• "We don't know how long natural antibodies to the Chinese flu last."
• "Vaccines produce antibodies. We don't know that recovery from the Chinese flu produces antibodies."
• "The natural antibodies produced by the body are somehow different than the antibodies created by the vaccine."
• "The vaccine antibodies are better than the natural antibodies, cuz science."
• "Oh, and because those who recover from the virus don't produce antibodies."
• "Those who recover from the Chinese flu basically never get the Chinese flu again because lack of antibodies."
• "We all need to get the vaccine because antibodies."
• "I don't need no links or papers or science because Floggy watches a lot of medical shows on the History Channel."
• "Saying the Chinese flu came from China is rayciss."
• "Saying the Chinese flu came from a Chinese lab is rayciss."
• "Saying the Chinese flu came from a filthy Chinese open-air market selling bats and pangolin penises is not rayciss."

Floggy's medical advisor:

NOTE: Not a real doctor

 

[Troglodyte]

I get that the CDC is months behind the actual science in issuing guidance as it has been all along. Government bureaucracy for you.

Memba when Uncle Joe told us we could maybe have small outdoor gatherings without masks by July 4th? LOL.

Actual science or alternative science? So soon the CDC will come out and tell people who have had Covid to not get vaccinated?

Im curious, are you equally confused as to why your car still has seatbelts even though it’s equipped with airbags?

 

[oneforthebus]

Actual science or alternative science? So soon the CDC will come out and tell people who have had Covid to not get vaccinated?

Im curious, are you equally confused as to why your car still has seatbelts even though it’s equipped with airbags?

LMAO. You are entertaining, I'll give you that.

I'm not confused at all. They are recommending everyone get the vaccine because THEY DON'T KNOW. Says so right on their website but you are so dense you just can't seem to grasp that. Yes, I think eventually if the science bears out that natural immunity is equal to or greater than the vaccine over the long haul, they should cease to recommend the vaccine for those who have been infected. Kind of like how if you already got chicken pox you aren't recommended to get a chicken pox vaccine. At a minimum it could save billions of dollars and make sure that there is enough vaccine for people who DO need one, so not to do so would be idiotic. Given that they've gone way overkill with many of their recommendations, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't get there for years or ever, but they certainly should.

 

[Hines57]

The vaccine provides a certainty of antibodies, having had Covid does not.

This is patently false. I have friends who have had Covid many months ago and they still test positive for antibodies. One friend just posted their blood test results earlier this week and 6 months after the fact, they still have Covid antibodies.

I have another friend who was Covid positive in Feb 2020 and was still donating blood with antibodies in November of last year.

There is no certainty as to how long antibodies from the vaccines will last, that is why they will be doing a booster shot for everyone later this year.

 

[Steeltime]

Actual science or alternative science? So soon the CDC will come out and tell people who have had Covid to not get vaccinated?

Very likely.

You know, like the CDC telling vaccinated people to keep wearing masks, I mocked that idea, you accused me of being wrong cuz science, and a week later the CDC says vaccinated people don't need to wear a mask.

You remember that, don't you?

Im curious, are you equally confused as to why your car still has seatbelts even though it’s equipped with airbags?

Your analogy, as expected from a dumb person, is completely false. The vaccine and natural antibodies are the SAME THING. Seat belts and air bags ARE DIFFERENT THINGS, providing demonstrably different protection. Or do you think the lawsuits against car manufacturers for product liability - design defect argued that airbags are the same as seat belts, so that's why vehicles needed airbags in addition to seat belts?

The better analogy is, "Would you tell somebody who has been vaccinated to continue locking the front door?" The answer is "yes, of course," since locking the front door provides protection from a variety of other potential dangers.

 

[Troglodyte]

LMAO. You are entertaining, I'll give you that.

I'm not confused at all. They are recommending everyone get the vaccine because THEY DON'T KNOW. Says so right on their website but you are so dense you just can't seem to grasp that. Yes, I think eventually if the science bears out that natural immunity is equal to or greater than the vaccine over the long haul, they should cease to recommend the vaccine for those who have been infected. Kind of like how if you already got chicken pox you aren't recommended to get a chicken pox vaccine. At a minimum it could save billions of dollars and make sure that there is enough vaccine for people who DO need one, so not to do so would be idiotic. Given that they've gone way overkill with many of their recommendations, it wouldn't surprise me if they don't get there for years or ever, but they certainly should.

So “They don’t know” to you means “go ahead and assume that you still have natural antibodies regardless of how long ago you had Covid... since they don’t know for certain that you don’t have antibodies”?

And I don’t buy for a second that you got the vaccine for the perks. As if anybody is actually verifying that.

 

[oneforthebus]

So “They don’t know” to you means “go ahead and assume that you still have natural antibodies regardless of how long ago you had Covid... since they don’t know for certain that you don’t have antibodies”?

And I don’t buy for a second that you got the vaccine for the perks. As if anybody is actually verifying that.

Again with the antibodies LOL. Do you know how to read? At all?

I don't have to wear a mask all day at my job now that I'm vaccinated. That's one huge perk. My children are all in college, one of which requires the vaccine, the other two make them test regularly and quarantine if you're a close contact unless you have a vaccine. I wasn't going to have my children get vaccinated and not do it myself. Also as an empty nester starting this fall, we may be doing some travel which will require vaccination. So yes, I got it for the perks and also because I know the numbers of vaccinated would directly correlate with opening up the country. As someone who had covid I have followed the science on immunity from it closely. So far I have seen nothing that shows vaccination is superior in preventing illness and death to natural immunity from infection. If that data comes out I will respect the science behind it. It doesn't exist yet and we are over a year into infections and probably 6 months into clinical trials of the vaccine. People like you will still be screaming that the vaccine is superior even if all the science and evidence point to the contrary.

It's weird, I have to wonder why some people are so in love with the most restrictive and intrusive measures even if they prove to be needless or ineffective.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

It's weird, I have to wonder why some people are so in love with the most restrictive and intrusive measures even if they prove to be needless or ineffective.

One word. Ideology.

It is religion to them. That is why the lot of them refuse to consider recent, updated, factual science over what they were told in 2020 when we knew far less about the virus.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Fantastic read on Ivermectin and how the world's media has worked to cover up how effective it has been.

"I Don't Know of a Bigger Story in the World" Right Now Than Ivermectin: NY Times Best-Selling Author | naked capitalism So why are journalists not covering it?

So why are journalists not covering it?

www.nakedcapitalism.com

 

[Troglodyte]

Again with the antibodies LOL. Do you know how to read? At all?

I don't have to wear a mask all day at my job now that I'm vaccinated. That's one huge perk. My children are all in college, one of which requires the vaccine, the other two make them test regularly and quarantine if you're a close contact unless you have a vaccine. I wasn't going to have my children get vaccinated and not do it myself. Also as an empty nester starting this fall, we may be doing some travel which will require vaccination. So yes, I got it for the perks and also because I know the numbers of vaccinated would directly correlate with opening up the country. As someone who had covid I have followed the science on immunity from it closely. So far I have seen nothing that shows vaccination is superior in preventing illness and death to natural immunity from infection. If that data comes out I will respect the science behind it. It doesn't exist yet and we are over a year into infections and probably 6 months into clinical trials of the vaccine. People like you will still be screaming that the vaccine is superior even if all the science and evidence point to the contrary.

It's weird, I have to wonder why some people are so in love with the most restrictive and intrusive measures even if they prove to be needless or ineffective.

What science suggests the vaccine is inferior to natural antibodies? The vaccine, if nothing else, is more predictable. The UC Irvine study showed antibodies are much more robust with the vaccine. We know that Covid symptoms varied greatly from person to person, isn’t it reasonable to suspect natural antibody levels could as well?

 

[Troglodyte]

One word. Ideology.

It is religion to them. That is why the lot of them refuse to consider recent, updated, factual science over what they were told in 2020 when we knew far less about the virus.

And what do you call it when you mocked the 100-200k death estimates a year ago? But you’re ahead of the science now?