The Coronavirus thread

[SteelerInLebanon]

In your imaginary la-la land, where keeping people home for weeks or months on end and such approach has no cost, what do the citizens use for currency? Unicorn tears? Minotaur hooves? Dragon teeth?

Nobody can answer your question right now. First, we don't actually know how many have died due to COVID as opposed to heart disease, cancer, pneumonia, stroke, etc. because all deaths due to heart disease, cancer, etc. have been attributed to COVID if the patient had the illness.



https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...avirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

Second, we have no way of knowing how many would have died with more stringent controls of public behavior. Would 100 more have died in Los Angeles? 1000? Nobody knows. All we can do is guesstimate based on the demonstrably flawed computer projections.

Third, what is the cost for a restrictive approach? Again, we don't know. How many will die due to the economic backlash - hundreds? Thousands? Could be.

And don't be ignorant. A leading cause of death in the world, and for our entire history as a species, has been poverty. Poverty leads to poor living conditions, poor medical care, poor diet, and early death.

So how many people have the Feds killed with their poverty-inducing measures? Tell me. If you are honest and say, "I don't know right now," then please, for the love of God, stop telling us how many people have been "saved" by the self-immolation of the economy.

We had this discussion at home last night. WOuld those people have died at that point if they were not sick with this? It certainly has to be a contributing factor at the very least. Yes some of those would have died any way but is is not disingenuous or entirely inaccurate to include them. We should but don't track in this country secondary factors in our statistics while many do. They even have two different code internationally for this. I agree there is a distinction but it is more gray than black and white.

 

[Steeltime]

Oh I don't disagree but really as it borders on the ridiculous already is another trillion going to matter?

Yes. A trillion dollar addition to the debt is knee-buckling, but if the economy continues to prosper, the deficit goes down, the accrued debt shrinks as a percentage of GDP, the amount spent on interest declines, etc.

Adding another $3 trillion means paying approximately $100 billion per year IN ADDITIONAL INTEREST. EVERY YEAR.

We should seriously take China to task and just cancel our debt with them in recompense. It is all imaginary money to a degree.

But it's not. The United States is still the world leader in part due to the fact that the world currency is the dollar. If the US simply tells China to go @#$% itself on the hundreds of billions (indeed, trillions) of national debt it holds, China will push to have its currency become the world currency. China can and will argue that the United States just punted on billions of dollars of debt, so its credit worthiness is ****.

The reliability of the United States as a debtor and the relative strength of the U.S. economy supports the value of the dollar. It's the reason the dollar is the most powerful currency. Around $580 billion in U.S. bills are used outside the country.[SUP]3[/SUP] That's 65% of all dollars. That includes 75% of $100 bills, 55% of $50 bills, and 60%of $20 bills. Most of these bills are in the former Soviet Union countries and in Latin America. They are often used as hard currency in day-to-day transactions.

Cash is just one indication of the role of the dollar as a world currency. More than one-third of the world's gross domestic product comes from countries that peg their currencies to the dollar. That includes seven countries that have adopted the U.S. dollar as their own. Another 89 countries keep their currency in a tight trading range relative to the dollar.

https://www.thebalance.com/world-currency-3305931

Why does that matter? Because as the world currency, something we have been since 1944 and Bretton-Woods (doing away with the gold standard), we can print money that is given its face value around the world. A US $100 bill is worth $100 when printed because we are the world currency.

That is why Argentina and Venezuela and China cannot simply print their way out of a recession. Doing so simply drives down their currency value to nothing and makes their plight worse.

China needs to pay for what they have done, but the US simply blowing off trillions in debt is not the way.

 

[oneforthebus]

Woah stop right there you are wrong about the spread. We are finding it spreads very easily many just never know they had it or haven't been tested as you said in the second sentence.

We don't know that ether one of those is true. It's possible it spreads VERY quickly and there are just many, many more mild cases than we know about. That would actually be AWESOME. That would mean the best way to control this virus is to let most people who are not at high risk of death get it and obtain immunity.

As far as the mechanism of spreading, i.e. are you likely to get it from just touching surfaces or standing 20 feet away from someone, well obviously that is unlikely given that MILLIONS of people have been in grocery stores every single day and yet infection rates are slowing in many places.

Their plenty of evidence how bad it could have been. Again you just have to look NYC and imagine if other major cities had had more exposure and poor management like they did. According to what I am seeing today more have already died from this than H1N1 with many fewer diagnosed cases. Now that will likely change drastically as we test and have better estimates on how many actually are infected.

Given that deaths from pneumonia and heart attack and stroke are way down from the norm right now, it's more likely that many of these folks who died testing positive for COVID did not actually die from COVID.

You don't have any better idea yet if we overreacted that you say the models did. Still way to much unknown to make that judgment. I THINK we reacted appropriately you THINK we overreacted until this all over we won't really be able to say and maybe not even then.

Yes I do. Because we acted based on models that were demonstrably wrong. Models that accounted for social distancing and were still way, way off. Thus, factually we overreacted. If you come from the "if it saves one life it's worth it" school than we didn't, but from the reasons we were told we needed to do this, because otherwise hundreds of thousands or millions would die, we did.

I also THINK the economy will recover as long as the Dems don't win in November.

Right, because businesses can magically go months without income and then open right back up again like nothing happened. Because months of no travel will not impact the hotel or airline industry at all. Because months of little to no fuel consumption won't affect the oil and gas industry at all. Because months of stores and restaurants being closed won't affect their suppliers, their landlords, their state and local tax revenue.

Yep, all that loss will not affect the economy one bit.

I am again also glad this is the argument we are having

The argument we're having is a false one that assumes the only two choices were maximum restrictions or millions die.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

I can feel a global warming-like "denier" cancel culture emerging.

 

[Steeltime]

I can feel a global warming-like "denier" cancel culture emerging.

 

[Badcat]

You mean like Knut Wittkowski, previously the longtime head of the Department of Biostatistics, Epidemiology, and Research Design at the Rockefeller University in New York City? Here is what he had to say -



https://www.thecollegefix.com/epide...uld-be-exterminated-if-lockdowns-were-lifted/

The reason for purposefully flattening the curve has more to do with the strain on hospitals, staff, and equipment. I can't even begin to fathom the immense burden on our healthcare infrastructure and personnel if Mr. Wittkowski's plans were to be carried out.

 

[Steeltime]

The reason for purposefully flattening the curve has more to do with the strain on hospitals, staff, and equipment. I can't even begin to fathom the immense burden on our healthcare infrastructure and personnel if Mr. Wittkowski's plans were to be carried out.

A very legitimate point. The counter point: New York had the worst of the worst, and did not run short of beds or ventilators. It had excess ventilators, stored in a warehouse, and a medical ship from the US Navy in port with 1100 beds - 20 in use. The sobbing nurse, crying about being forced to work with no protective mask? A fraud. She had been fired a year earlier.

Once again, a very bad situation, made much, much worse overall (considering life effects and long-term damage) with the corrective measures.

 

[IndySteel]

If if if.... If my aunt had balls she'd be my uncle. This is all bullshit. There is no way in Hell that the speculated threat of the Chinese flu was worth anywhere near the damage that this has done to our economy. To the vast majority of the population the flu is harmless. No symptoms. The fact is that the numbers are a fraction of what the pearl clutchers were pissing themselves over. Yeah, the market might bounce back fairly quickly, but what has this done to people's credit? Who is going to run out and buy a car anytime soon when they're going to have months of bills to catch up on? If they even get their jobs back. This whole over-hyped panic reaction has crippled what was the greatest economic boom this country has ever seen. **** no, it wasn't worth it.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

Lost my first employee today. Never in my day did I think as a safety professional, in my field,...That I’d have an employee die.

 

[IndySteel]

Lost my first employee today. Never in my day did I think as a safety professional, in my field,...That I’d have an employee die.

Doh! My post was bad timing! Seriously, sorry to hear that man.

 

[Superman]

msn is saying the numbers are off due to Trump. of course.

https://www.msn.com/en-us/news/poli...us-deaths-estimate/ar-BB125ZfP?amp;ocid=wispr

The handful of projections the task force has plucked from the group and used in White House discussions, administration officials said, are sometimes deployed with an audience of one in mind: Trump.

Officials have said the Imperial College’s eye-popping 2.2 million death projection convinced Trump to stop dismissing the outbreak and take it more seriously. Similarly, officials said, the new projection of 100,000 to 240,000 deaths is what convinced Trump to extend restrictions for 30 days and abandon his push to reopen parts of the country by Easter, which many health experts believe could have worsened the outbreak.

to try to stand in the middle of this, the charts and graphs may have been intentionally altered to get jolt the 2-second attention span of the average American. Too many people will casually dismiss any virus as being irrelevant to their lives since they do not personally encounter anyone with such a disease. The stay-home orders may have raised some eyebrows in how easily a disease can be transmitted, but at the same time it makes one marvel at how easily we can be duped into curling into the fetal position by the federal government and how easily our rights can be willingly given up.

I've done what I can to avoid crowds and stay home. I'm on my 4th week of working from home. I've been to our office once in that time span. I try to avoid large crowds - or crowds at all - due to the mere possibility of this virus. Not that I might get it (I think I'd be ok) but that if I have it, the old lady in front of me at Publix may not be ok. Or the stressed stay-home mom in last week's sweatpants might not have a strong immune system at this point and I might be a carrier of this.

though i can and will admit that if i were a carrier of this, I'd be at Casa Ark with the intention of hugging him and coughing in his face. Not that I want Ark to die, just to suffer some. I'm that kind of friend.

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

Doh! My post was bad timing! Seriously, sorry to hear that man.

No worries. You all know how I stand with this beast .....but that just hit me. She was older. I think that is the main difference with this, if your compromised it can hit yard and fast.

 

[IndySteel]

though i can and will admit that if i were a carrier of this, I'd be at Casa Ark with the intention of hugging him and coughing in his face. Not that I want Ark to die, just to suffer some. I'm that kind of friend.

Speaking of Ark, where was that ******* in December / January? All signs point to Wuhan...

 

[Steeltime]

though i can and will admit that if i were a carrier of this, I'd be at Casa Ark with the intention of hugging him and coughing in his face. Not that I want Ark to die, just to suffer some. I'm that kind of friend.

With Ark, that makes you a solid friend.

With Ogre? Best friend ever.

 

[Superman]

Speaking of Ark, where was that ******* in December / January? All signs point to Wuhan...

if you were not a ***** and still in that group text, you'd know that Ark is now working from home and it's been a 24-hour, 7-days per week Fuckathon at Casa Ark.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

No I think you are wrong in that we did not overreact. I think these numbers bare a direct correlation to out actions. To many only look a the models and see the mid line and up but if you look at many of the models closely and look at the shaded area corresponding to the midline you would see many of these do have us within their margin of error. If we had not acted this would have been likey worse than the flu once again not be cause it itself is more deadly but we would have seen much higher rates of Vent use and ICU use. At least here in Ohio the models have been adjusted all along to track more closely with what is being seen as they took in to account the results of our efforts.

I look at it this way we may never be able to prove if we overreacted but thank god we didn't prove the opposite at this point and we may get out of this to a degree in the near future.

You've already been addressed by others on this, but I can't help myself. You start with "I think." And that's been the basis of your position on this shut down, "I think." We don't need religion, we need facts and science, and sadly the facts and science has been horrible and it's been destructively wrong.

You "think" the dropping numbers show a direct correlation to our actions. Yet all of the models PREDICTED doom and gloom accounting for social distancing. So when you say you think the numbers are now much lower because we socially distanced ourselves AND the models factored in social distancing, I can say you are wrong.

You "think" it would have been worse than the flu, and for decades we are going to have The Great Supression apologists saying just this. "If we hadn't shut down, millions would have died!" Millions weren't going to die even without social distancing. See Sweden. See areas of China never blockaded. There's no evidence (just fearmongering) to suggest millions would have. Herd mentality would have taken over, and as a race we would have developed aversion to the virus naturally. More would have died but no way in hell millions. I daresay not even hundreds of thousands.

We are not getting out of this to any degree in the near future. I'm going Spike on this one. I'll stand by my predictions - hundreds of thousands will die as a result of the economic collapse. Our economy is in a shambles. It's going to take countless years to recover from this, and from a debt standpoint, we may never. Historians will look back on this as The Great Suppression.

Anybody who disputes what you are saying needs to come back in six or eight months, when we finally see the devastation caused, and apologize.

None will. The line will be "if we hadn't done this, millions would have died. It was the cost we had to pay." Not one will say I was wrong. Not a single one.

Would the opposite have been better? I think our economy will recover without to much problem personally. Yes our debt expanded but it was already ridiculous to he point does it really matter anymore? I hate that we did it but not as much as what might have happened if we did not.

I "think" our economy will recover. You're hoping. That's all you've got, I'm sorry.

We had this discussion at home last night. WOuld those people have died at that point if they were not sick with this? It certainly has to be a contributing factor at the very least. Yes some of those would have died any way but is is not disingenuous or entirely inaccurate to include them. We should but don't track in this country secondary factors in our statistics while many do. They even have two different code internationally for this. I agree there is a distinction but it is more gray than black and white.

It is utterly disingenuous. It would be like saying Michael Brown died of a heart attack because his heart stopped beating after being pumped full of bullets.

WV reported a man dead from COVID 19, their first. Hours later they confessed he was still alive. Still is based on my research.

A grandmother in Texas was in a hospice nursing facility suffering from advanced Alzheimers disease. In HOSPICE, meaning she was about to die. Numerous patients contracted it, and she tested positive then died - from the Alzheimers (clinically, as reported by her family - no lung related issues caused her demise). Texas journalists reported she died of COVID19 at a military facility (where she'd never even visited) and now her death is listed as COVID19 caused.

Headline: Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...avirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

There's no gray area there. "The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life."

It is wrong. If I have cancer, and suffer a heart attack and die, my death should be considered heart related. Statistically and morally.

Given the government has admitted they are doing this, FOREVER the COVID death numbers will be over inflated. Period. It's not even an argument.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

You've already been addressed by others on this, but I can't help myself. You start with "I think." And that's been the basis of your position on this shut down, "I think." We don't need religion, we need facts and science, and sadly the facts and science has been horrible and it's been destructively wrong.

You "think" the dropping numbers show a direct correlation to our actions. Yet all of the models PREDICTED doom and gloom accounting for social distancing. So when you say you think the numbers are now much lower because we socially distanced ourselves AND the models factored in social distancing, I can say you are wrong.

You "think" it would have been worse than the flu, and for decades we are going to have The Great Supression apologists saying just this. "If we hadn't shut down, millions would have died!" Millions weren't going to die even without social distancing. See Sweden. See areas of China never blockaded. There's no evidence (just fearmongering) to suggest millions would have. Herd mentality would have taken over, and as a race we would have developed aversion to the virus naturally. More would have died but no way in hell millions. I daresay not even hundreds of thousands.

We are not getting out of this to any degree in the near future. I'm going Spike on this one. I'll stand by my predictions - hundreds of thousands will die as a result of the economic collapse. Our economy is in a shambles. It's going to take countless years to recover from this, and from a debt standpoint, we may never. Historians will look back on this as The Great Suppression.



None will. The line will be "if we hadn't done this, millions would have died. It was the cost we had to pay." Not one will say I was wrong. Not a single one.



I "think" our economy will recover. You're hoping. That's all you've got, I'm sorry.



It is utterly disingenuous. It would be like saying Michael Brown died of a heart attack because his heart stopped beating after being pumped full of bullets.

WV reported a man dead from COVID 19, their first. Hours later they confessed he was still alive. Still is based on my research.

A grandmother in Texas was in a hospice nursing facility suffering from advanced Alzheimers disease. In HOSPICE, meaning she was about to die. Numerous patients contracted it, and she tested positive then died - from the Alzheimers (clinically, as reported by her family - no lung related issues caused her demise). Texas journalists reported she died of COVID19 at a military facility (where she'd never even visited) and now her death is listed as COVID19 caused.

Headline: Birx says government is classifying all deaths of patients with coronavirus as 'COVID-19' deaths, regardless of cause
https://www.foxnews.com/politics/bi...avirus-as-covid-19-deaths-regardless-of-cause

There's no gray area there. "The federal government is classifying the deaths of patients infected with the coronavirus as COVID-19 deaths, regardless of any underlying health issues that could have contributed to the loss of someone's life."

It is wrong. If I have cancer, and suffer a heart attack and die, my death should be considered heart related. Statistically and morally.

Given the government has admitted they are doing this, FOREVER the COVID death numbers will be over inflated. Period. It's not even an argument.

Wow we had agreed at some point on some things but at this point we will just have to agree to disagree on almost everything you just posted. For two people who typically aren't far apart we have a huge disconnect on this one. You think people will die because of economics even though we have never truly faced this set of circumstances, says you are going on guess work and not science just as much as anyone. I respect you and your opinion but think your wrong as you do me and neither at this point has any way to prove their case since this is still ongoing and we may never have all the information we need to definitely say. I just know based on empirical evidence that I and what the healthcare workers in my family here and in France see weave done a good job beating this thing in America. You can say it didn't matter and neither of us can prove the other wrong. As long the economy recovers we can say erring on the side of caution was correct if it doesn't and people die due to that(which might be hard to track) then you win. Lets just say we should both hope I am right and the economy will recover.

Hopefully we can get back to just giving Trog and Tibs grief over the election.

 

[Confluence]

OFTB et al. 1
Spike, Tibs, Trog, Elfie v11 0

Michael Burry of ‘The Big Short’*Slams Virus Lockdowns in Tweetstorm https://www.bloomberg.com/news/arti...s-virus-lockdowns-in-controversial-tweetstorm

Sent from my SM-N975U using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Wow we had agreed at some point on some things but at this point we will just have to agree to disagree on almost everything you just posted. For two people who typically aren't far apart we have a huge disconnect on this one. You think people will die because of economics even though we have never truly faced this set of circumstances, says you are going on guess work and not science just as much as anyone.

No man, I am going on science.

I don't think people will die due to economics, they WILL. Are you aware of how many studies have been done on human health as it related to the Great Recession? Hell TONS was done on the Great Depression. It's all documented and it's all very real. There's an ocean of data out there on the effect of economic downturns on suicides, general health, starvation, poverty-induced diseases/maladies, heart attacks, etc.

From the article I posted previously:

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance...Nt1_8S0h6xL7XYgPIgWYQUW5TlpWYaQGaa6725KjaOqWs

The findings in this article are supported by:
-an academic study by Taiwanese researchers
-the National Survey of Drug Use and Health,
-the Federal Reserve Bank,
-the National Bureau of Economic Research and
-the Archives of Internal Medicine

If you want to refute their findings, feel free. But I'm not "thinking" here or guessing or hoping. These are studies based upon evidence.

There's more:

From HHS: Economic Recession, Alcohol, and Suicide Rates: Comparative Effects of Poverty, Foreclosure, and Job Loss - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5362282/

From NIH: Systematic review of suicide in economic recession - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473496/

RESULTS: Thirty-eight studies met predetermined selection criteria and 31 of them found a positive association between economic recession and increased suicide rates. Two studies reported a negative association, two articles failed to find such an association, and three studies were inconclusive.

CONCLUSION: Economic recession periods appear to increase overall suicide rates, although further research is warranted in this area, particularly in low income countries.

The New York Times: Increase Seen in U.S. Suicide Rate Since Recession - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/health/us-suicide-rate-rose-during-recession-study-finds.html

The rate of suicide in the United States rose sharply during the first few years since the start of the recession, a new analysis has found.

In the report, which appeared Sunday on the Web site of The Lancet, a medical journal, researchers found that the rate between 2008 and 2010 increased four times faster than it did in the eight years before the recession. The rate had been increasing by an average of 0.12 deaths per 100,000 people from 1999 through 2007. In 2008, the rate began increasing by an average of 0.51 deaths per 100,000 people a year.

Several Studies: https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/30/trump-is-right-suicides-do-increase-during-economic-hardship/

First is a quote from The American Psychological Association: “Socioeconomic changes might be part of the puzzle. Globally, suicide rates have often fallen when living conditions have improved. And the reverse is also true… these ‘deaths of despair’ are linked to a deterioration of economic and social well-being among the white working class (“Mortality and Morbidity in the 21st Century,” Brookings Papers on Economic Activity, Spring 2017).”

Here’s another study that supports Trump’s claim from BMJ, a subsidiary of the British Medical Association: “After the 2008 economic crisis, rates of suicide increased in the European and American countries studied, particularly in men and in countries with higher levels of job loss.” Some highlights of the findings are as follows: “In 2009 there was a 37% increase in unemployment because of the economic crisis of 2008, suicides were approximately 5000 over the expected levels for that year. In America there was an increase in suicides of men aged 45-64 years of age.”

Here’s another from The American Journal of Preventive Medicine that finds: “Suicide circumstances varied considerably by age, with those related to job, financial, and legal problems most common among individuals aged 40–64 years. Between 2005 and 2010, the proportion of suicides where these circumstances were present increased among this age group, from 32.9% to 37.5%…”

That's just suicides.

I could post 197 pages worth of scientific studies that shows what poverty does to loss of life due to hunger, not being able to seek or afford medical care, malnutrition, increases in health risks.

From the American Heart Association:

Socioeconomic status typically includes factors like income, education, and employment. Together these factors can have a big impact on health and risk for chronic disease. Research continues to show that low levels of education and income are associated with increased risk for heart disease. An individual’s employment status or occupation can also have an impact on heart health, as higher status occupations may be associated with better health.

University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191118115241.htm

Communities in the United States that experienced the most economic distress in the wake of the Great Recession saw a significant increase in death rates from heart disease and strokes among middle-aged people. While the death rates remained nearly unchanged in counties with the least economic distress, areas experiencing worsening economic trends saw a sharp increase, from 122 deaths per 100,000 residents in 2010 to 127.6 deaths in 2015.

Harvard Medical School: Heart Beat: When stocks crash, heart attacks go up - https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/when-stocks-crash-heart-attacks-go-up

-------------------------------

I'm sorry man but this **** is real. It is going to be VERY real. People are quite literally going to DIE because of what we have done to combat this virus. Heart attacks will rise, suicides will rise, poverty will rise, crime will rise, malnutrition will rise, and people won't be able to get healthcare that they used to be able to.

To argue otherwise is nonsense. The longer this shut down goes, the longer will be the repercussions. If you go through these, you'll see many of these showed the impacts of the Great Recession was still killing people 5 or more years down the line. The impact will be LONG and it will be hard.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

No man, I am going on science.

I don't think people will die due to economics, they WILL. Are you aware of how many studies have been done on human health as it related to the Great Recession? Hell TONS was done on the Great Depression. It's all documented and it's all very real. There's an ocean of data out there on the effect of economic downturns on suicides, general health, starvation, poverty-induced diseases/maladies, heart attacks, etc.

From the article I posted previously:

https://thehill.com/opinion/finance...Nt1_8S0h6xL7XYgPIgWYQUW5TlpWYaQGaa6725KjaOqWs

The findings in this article are supported by:
-an academic study by Taiwanese researchers
-the National Survey of Drug Use and Health,
-the Federal Reserve Bank,
-the National Bureau of Economic Research and
-the Archives of Internal Medicine

If you want to refute their findings, feel free. But I'm not "thinking" here or guessing or hoping. These are studies based upon evidence.

There's more:

From HHS: Economic Recession, Alcohol, and Suicide Rates: Comparative Effects of Poverty, Foreclosure, and Job Loss - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC5362282/

From NIH: Systematic review of suicide in economic recession - https://www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/pmc/articles/PMC4473496/



The New York Times: Increase Seen in U.S. Suicide Rate Since Recession - https://www.nytimes.com/2012/11/05/health/us-suicide-rate-rose-during-recession-study-finds.html



Several Studies: https://thefederalist.com/2020/03/30/trump-is-right-suicides-do-increase-during-economic-hardship/







That's just suicides.

I could post 197 pages worth of scientific studies that shows what poverty does to loss of life due to hunger, not being able to seek or afford medical care, malnutrition, increases in health risks.

From the American Heart Association:



University of Pennsylvania School of Medicine: https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2019/11/191118115241.htm



Harvard Medical School: Heart Beat: When stocks crash, heart attacks go up - https://www.health.harvard.edu/heart-health/when-stocks-crash-heart-attacks-go-up

-------------------------------

I'm sorry man but this **** is real. It is going to be VERY real. People are quite literally going to DIE because of what we have done to combat this virus. Heart attacks will rise, suicides will rise, poverty will rise, crime will rise, malnutrition will rise, and people won't be able to get healthcare that they used to be able to.

To argue otherwise is nonsense. The longer this shut down goes, the longer will be the repercussions. If you go through these, you'll see many of these showed the impacts of the Great Recession was still killing people 5 or more years down the line. The impact will be LONG and it will be hard.

You may be right but not one of those studies, not one, deals with this particular set of circumstances so in essence they are no better than guesses. And I can tell you as Political Science major I can tell you those studies are a far cry from true science. They are more like Pseudoscience and being based on pure statistics and not studies in the medical sense their value only goes so far. I am not discounting their total value but as I have said and will continue to say we have to wait and see. It may be as you say but it well maybe something new and different, hell it could be worse but it has a decent chance of not being so and recovering faster because of partially artificial nature of the economic downturn and the possibility of a quick turn around. We shall see. Again let's hope I am right and you are wrong. I am hoping and praying that the stock collapse will not be the same due to what caused it.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

You may be right but not one of those studies, not one, deals with this particular set of circumstances so in essence they are no better than guesses. And I can tell you as Political Science major I can tell you those studies are a far cry from true science. They are more like Pseudoscience and being based on pure statistics and not studies in the medical sense their value only goes so far. I am not discounting their total value but as I have said and will continue to say we have to wait and see. It may be as you say but it well maybe something new and different, hell it could be worse but it has a decent chance of not being so and recovering faster because of partially artificial nature of the economic downturn and the possibility of a quick turn around. We shall see. Again let's hope I am right and you are wrong. I am hoping and praying that the stock collapse will not be the same due to what caused it.

Those studies all deal with the health impacts of economic downturns. They document the history of multiple economic downturns. There's not one, there's COUNTLESS studies. I posted a handful. Each shows universally, regardless the continent, when the economy turns down, suicides and heart attacks increase. It's fact, not opinion.

It's a fact that when poverty strikes, health conditions rise. So too do addictions to drugs and alcohol.

I'm not arguing what I THINK. These are proven repercussions of down economies.

This set of circumstances is not only the same as the Great Recession or the Great Depression, this situation could surpass both if this shut down continues. THEREFORE, history will repeat itself on the health front...just possibly worse.

Because you support this shut down, because you have family on the front lines, and you want this shut down to continue for personal and understandable reasons, you are willfully putting your hands over your eyes. I'm not saying that to be mean. It's just what you're doing. The long term consequences matter less to you than getting through this now. And I get that, it makes sense.

But at the end of the day, you're ignoring stone cold facts and your personal desires won't change history repeating itself. HISTORY shows when the economy tanks these things happen. You can scream until your last breath that these things won't happen. They are going to happen. They will most definitely happen.

"Based on statistics reported by Galbraith in The Great Crash 1929, the suicide rate in the United States increased from 17.0 per 100,000 people in 1929 to 21.3 in 1932 during the worst of the financial calamity. "

 

[Steeltime]

SIL, we all 100% hope that all here are wrong in concerns about COVID related deaths taking a huge toll on our society, and about the incredibly devastating effect that the certain economic harm to come will engender. But TSF has been pointing out that for some reason, difficult to understand, not a single person in any major media location - not one, SIL, not one - has said, "Hey, economic harm is real and it's serious so maybe we should take a look at the potential harm caused by lockdowns."

Not. One.

How the hell is it true that TSF has provided more data in this thread on the potential very harmful effects of the economic disaster occasioned by this voluntary devastation of our economy than all journalists put together on every network in the nation? HOW IS THAT POSSIBLE?

Further, how can we possibly explain it? I can think of one and only one explanation, and it simply adds to my burning hatred of what was once a worthwhile field - reporting. News. Broadcast news. Newspapers. Specifically, nobody at the alphabet soups (ABCNBCCBSPBSPUREBSWaPONYT) has posted a single credible analysis of the short and long-term detriment caused by the shutdown, including significant health damage and deaths, for one reason: Doing so might possibly help promote an easing of the lockdown, help the economy and thereby help Trump.

That is a sickening but true statement. The media are rooting for a recession, hell a depression because that hurts Trump. The media are rooting for a failed economy because that hurts Trump. The media are rooting for pain and suffering and death in America, because it hurts Trump. These clowns and cowards have bad-mouthed Hydroxychloroquine, despite its very promising results in Europe and oh despite the fact that American doctors are downing Plaquenil by the handful as a preventative measure, because Trump said something good about the drug.

MSNBC and CNN anchors would rather Americans die than be helped by Hydroxychloroquine. Hell, they would much rather Americans die BECAUSE of Hydroxy, since hoo-boy, NOW they have him!!

Why the hell would I make such a statement? Because the media have acted as China's bootlicking lackeys. Because Bill Maher admitted that a recession might hurt stupid Americans in flyover country, but it was worth it. Because governors are badmouthing Hydroxy as a treatment because Trump, while quietly hoarding the ******* drug. Because panic-inspired apocalyptic projections dominate the news, while nobody bothers looking at the actual numbers from Italy and Washington state compared to the projections.

So in summary ... **** the media. **** China. **** ******, stolen goods from China. Buy American.

 

[MTC]

I just want my leisure back.
No gym, no movie theaters, limited items at the store.

Wtf?

 

[madinsomniac]

New york is proof that this is woefully overstated... they absolutely had more exposure than anyone but China from day one... they are a principal point of entry to the country. They also resisted shutdowns well into march..New York city has a population of 8.6 million people... its area is 302 square miles in total... thats what? over 28,000 people per square mile?...in a perfect climate for transmission and months of transmission time...

There is no logical way to look at the contagion rate and not conclude millions are infected there... in terms of viral severity, 5k deaths, while terrible, is insignificant based on ratio



The fact that nobody can dance around no matter how hard they try or how many outliers they hype, is that the death rate under 45 to 20 is still .2% and under 20 its virtually zero...

The average age of death has hovered around 80 this whole time... usually around 81...

 

[Ironcitysteelers]

I just want my leisure back.
No gym, no movie theaters, limited items at the store.

Wtf?

Let me help on all fronts.


Pornhub -
movie check
Rub one out - exercise check