Time to clean house?

[SteelBuckeye]

After having awhile to cool off, my thoughts are:

1. This team is 2-2. Before the season, I had them losing to Balt. and Carolina and being 2-2 at this point. They had the opportunity to exceed expectations by taking a very winnable game. They didn't.
2.This team is undisciplined and soft. Taunting penalties, mental penalties (false starts etc.) and when they get punched in the mouth, they don't punch back.
3. These coaches are undisciplined and soft. Weak *** game plans/play calls/defensive schemes allow inferior teams to stay in the game. Instead of playing offense to put teams away, we get up by 10 and decide to turtle ..EVERY freakin time. To compound that, our Defense then goes into **** the bed, bend and eventually break mode.
4. The Head Coach is ultimately responsible for the wins and losses. We have one impressive win and two losses where the team played like ****, and seemed to be coached that way.
5. There are still 3/4 of the season left to go. I will HOPE for growth/maturity of the team and a playoff birth. If one or the other doesn't happen (preferably both), I will be squarely on the "FIRE TOMLIN" caravan, but I would encourage all those on the bandwagon to jump on board the "FIRE HALEY" and "FIRE LEBEAU" bandwagons also, because they aren't sitting there coaching in a vacuum and while Tomlin bears ultimate responsibility for the team, they each bear responsibility for their units.

 

[Steeltime]

Do you realize that by blowing it up, there is a chance that you have to endure at least 3 years of suckage (at least)?!

What do you call 2012-2014? Another 8-8 season will in fact be the forewarned "three years of suckage," no?

 

[F83]

1. Replace Lebeau with Butler at DC
2. start spending money in free agency on tier 1 Fa this year at CB, LG.
3 start fining team players for td celebrations penelties.
4. ask Munchak to start spending extra 1-1 time with Adams Beachum is just a stop gap like Foster and how in 08 Darnell Stapelton was a stop gap RG.
5 start playing young players why dress Tuitt and not play him a single d snap I am sure by the time on the last drive Brett was worn out and it could of helped to have fresh legs, insert Shamarko for the DB/S blitz from the edge.
6. use Lance Moore over Justin Brown who is at best a poor man's Nate Washington just bigger but poor hands and a lot slower.

 

[antdrewjosh]

Stats without context. In 1998-1999 you had a power struggle with Cowher and Donahoe. The team had no franchise QB. They were trying to scrap by with Kordell Stewart. Remember, despite the revisionist history, everyone wanted Kordell to play QB. They drafted him high to play QB. The owner said that he wanted Heinz field to be called the "house that Kordell built".

This team has none of those issues and has a franchise QB. To think they are even remotely similar is just to be blind to the issues on this team.

But if i ran off a list of excuses for Tomlin you and everyone would tell me to stuff them in my ***. Bottom line we are in a downturn just like then and having Ben doesnt solve them all. The Rooneys stuck by Cowher who hadnt won the big one but had proved he could coach. They are going to do the same with Tomlin. Its a tried and true method for the Steelers and they arent going to deviate from it.

 

[mightyguru]

Start the cleaning with Colbert...and let the new GM make the hires...not Rooney.

 

[mightyguru]

1. Replace Lebeau with Butler at DC
2. start spending money in free agency on tier 1 Fa this year at CB, LG.
3 start fining team players for td celebrations penelties.
4. ask Munchak to start spending extra 1-1 time with Adams Beachum is just a stop gap like Foster and how in 08 Darnell Stapelton was a stop gap RG.
5 start playing young players why dress Tuitt and not play him a single d snap I am sure by the time on the last drive Brett was worn out and it could of helped to have fresh legs, insert Shamarko for the DB/S blitz from the edge.
6. use Lance Moore over Justin Brown who is at best a poor man's Nate Washington just bigger but poor hands and a lot slower.

Great post.

 

[Steelerfan]

1. Replace Lebeau with Butler at DC
2. start spending money in free agency on tier 1 Fa this year at CB, LG.
3 start fining team players for td celebrations penelties.
4. ask Munchak to start spending extra 1-1 time with Adams Beachum is just a stop gap like Foster and how in 08 Darnell Stapelton was a stop gap RG.
5 start playing young players why dress Tuitt and not play him a single d snap I am sure by the time on the last drive Brett was worn out and it could of helped to have fresh legs, insert Shamarko for the DB/S blitz from the edge.
6. use Lance Moore over Justin Brown who is at best a poor man's Nate Washington just bigger but poor hands and a lot slower.

Pretty much agree. Good ideas there. You must spread some Reputation around...

 

[xjx]

Last year tomlin lost games to crappy teams. This year....looks like a repeat of last year.

Ask yourself this question, if rooney released tomlin would anyone else make him a hc?

 

[Vader]

But if i ran off a list of excuses for Tomlin you and everyone would tell me to stuff them in my ***. Bottom line we are in a downturn just like then and having Ben doesnt solve them all. The Rooneys stuck by Cowher who hadnt won the big one but had proved he could coach. They are going to do the same with Tomlin. Its a tried and true method for the Steelers and they arent going to deviate from it.

Context is not an excuse. An excuse is when someone says "All a HC does is give press conference". That's an excuse because it isn't true. When you are going to compare two time periods then you need context. Bottom line is we are NOT in a down turn like then. They are so different it makes my head spin. Cowher is the total opposite of Tomlin. Cowher took over a team that hadn't won anything in years. He had to rebuild an entire roster. He didn't have a QB and got stuck with the owners pet in Kordell for years. He also had a power struggle with the GM. Tomlin is the exact OPPOSITE. He took over a team a year removed from a SB. He has had a ton of input on the roster and draft picks. He's took over with a franchise QB in his prime. He didn't have to change the roster in a couple of years. He still hasn't replaced Cowher's player 8 YEARS after taking over the team.

The Rooney's stuck with Cowher because he proved he could coach and build a team. He did it several times. Tomlin hasn't proven any of that yet. He's proven he can win with a HOF DC, a franchise QB and a team full of another coaches star studded players. This is season 8 of Tomlin raiding the grave yard of Cowher's players to try to win to save his struggling career. Ben, Miller, Keisel, Ike, Troy and now Harrison who is already better than his 1st round pick last year. Maybe Hampton, Smith and Farrior will come back to help him?

 

[Steel Ballin]

Last year tomlin lost games to crappy teams. This year....looks like a repeat of last year.

Ask yourself this question, if rooney released tomlin would anyone else make him a hc?

Yes. He won a SB so he HAS to be a good HC,....right????

 

[Steeltime]

We can't shake the past we look just like the 98,99,2000 teams. Identical. Outside backers that can't get to qb, secondary giving up big plays. Crapping offense. Thing is that era had a better offensive line. Our line is the real problem and it could bring down the team and everyone in the front office with it.

No, Mike, the Steelers are now much worse than they were in 1998-2000. Specifically:

1998: -40 point differential, 19-16 OT loss on Thanksgiving with the Luckett "**** it" coin toss that killed the team. Still finished 7-9.

1999: 6-10 despite being even in point differential, and where the expected record per stats was 8-8. Lost 5 games by 7 points or less.

2000: 9-7 record, despite being +66 point differential. Lost 3 games by a field goal. Expected record based on point differential was 10-6.

So the team had one bad year - 1999. That year, the team was outscored by 40 points and finished 7-9. The other years, it was outscoring teams, and was a better team than the record indicated.

That is why the team went 13-3 in 2001, with Kordell freaking Stewart at QB. Think about that for a second - that team won more regular season games than Tomlin has ever won, with a lousy QB.

In comparison, the 2012-2014 Steelers are a true .500 team, despite a franchise QB, an exceptional TE, a HOF safety, and talented skill position players in Bell and Brown. The team is getting gouged by lousy QB's and if it had Kordell Stewart at QB, it would be a 5-11 or 4-12 team.

 

[SteelBuckeye]

Last year tomlin lost games to crappy teams. This year....looks like a repeat of last year.

Ask yourself this question, if rooney released tomlin would anyone else make him a hc?

Not saying Tomlin should stay here ... Not saying he shouldn't (yet). But you're wrong if you think he doesn't get another HC job w/in a year of being fired by the Steelers.

 

[Coryea]

The difference between now and the late 90's is they didn't have a franchise qb and cowher proved very early in his tenure that he could get rid of old talent and replace it with younger better talent. The late 90's were a lot of cowhers early draft picks getting old and often injured (steed, dirt, kirk, etc) but he already proved he could rebuild a team. Tomlin has proved that the more and more of cowhers players he loses the worse and worse this team gets and he hasn't been able to replace them

 

[antdrewjosh]

Context is not an excuse. An excuse is when someone says "All a HC does is give press conference". That's an excuse because it isn't true. When you are going to compare two time periods then you need context. Bottom line is we are NOT in a down turn like then. They are so different it makes my head spin. Cowher is the total opposite of Tomlin. Cowher took over a team that hadn't won anything in years. He had to rebuild an entire roster. He didn't have a QB and got stuck with the owners pet in Kordell for years. He also had a power struggle with the GM. Tomlin is the exact OPPOSITE. He took over a team a year removed from a SB. He has had a ton of input on the roster and draft picks. He's took over with a franchise QB in his prime. He didn't have to change the roster in a couple of years. He still hasn't replaced Cowher's player 8 YEARS after taking over the team.

The Rooney's stuck with Cowher because he proved he could coach and build a team. He did it several times. Tomlin hasn't proven any of that yet. He's proven he can win with a HOF DC, a franchise QB and a team full of another coaches star studded players. This is season 8 of Tomlin raiding the grave yard of Cowher's players to try to win to save his struggling career. Ben, Miller, Keisel, Ike, Troy and now Harrison who is already better than his 1st round pick last year. Maybe Hampton, Smith and Farrior will come back to help him?

We've had this convo before so i will leave it alone. I say he didnt have to rebuild the entire roster. You will say he did. I will say he had time to get a QB you will say he didnt. I will say how can you blame Everything on one guy but give him no credit for winning when he did. I agree with the draft part of it. Talent hasnt been replaced. But i will also say they havent slipped far enough to really have a chance to replace that talent either. That will be an excuse though. What I do know is this we all know how the Rooneys operate. They dont fire coaches they find one they like and stick with him. They did it with Cowher and rightly so and will do it again with Tomlin and rightly so.

Let me ask this though who was the D coordinator when Cowher won?

 

[SteelBuckeye]

Context is not an excuse. An excuse is when someone says "All a HC does is give press conference". That's an excuse because it isn't true. When you are going to compare two time periods then you need context. Bottom line is we are NOT in a down turn like then. They are so different it makes my head spin. Cowher is the total opposite of Tomlin. Cowher took over a team that hadn't won anything in years. He had to rebuild an entire roster. He didn't have a QB and got stuck with the owners pet in Kordell for years. He also had a power struggle with the GM. Tomlin is the exact OPPOSITE. He took over a team a year removed from a SB. He has had a ton of input on the roster and draft picks. He's took over with a franchise QB in his prime. He didn't have to change the roster in a couple of years. He still hasn't replaced Cowher's player 8 YEARS after taking over the team.

The Rooney's stuck with Cowher because he proved he could coach and build a team. He did it several times. Tomlin hasn't proven any of that yet. He's proven he can win with a HOF DC, a franchise QB and a team full of another coaches star studded players. This is season 8 of Tomlin raiding the grave yard of Cowher's players to try to win to save his struggling career. Ben, Miller, Keisel, Ike, Troy and now Harrison who is already better than his 1st round pick last year. Maybe Hampton, Smith and Farrior will come back to help him?

Like anything, when we go to canonize a coach, we often forget the facts. The cupboard was not exactly bare when Cowher took over this team and he didn't have to do much "rebuilding". Players on the team his first year included:

1. Neil O'Donnell - not a "Franchise" QB, but a damned good one who took the team to a Super Bowl (whereupon he **** the bed and rode off into the NY skyline)
2.Barry Foster - Whose resume includes one of the greatest seasons ever produced by a Steelers RB
3. Yancey Thigpen - A talented but not ALL-PRO WR
4. Eric Green - Who is/was the blueprint for the oversized receiving TE of the modern era and who could have been one of the greats if he had learned to stay out of his own way.
5. Rod Woodson - 'nuff said
6. Hardy Nickerson - Prototypical Steelers LB who eventually left in free agency.
7. Greg Lloyd - 'nuff said
8. Carnell Lake - one of the most versatile safeties the Steelers have ever had. Was a LB in college and spent time at S and CB for the Steelers.
9. Darren Perry (rookie year/ but a starter)
10. Joel Steed
11. Levon Kirkland (rookie year/non starter)
12. Duval Love (F/A pick up)
13. Merril Hoge - Mr. Gritty. A Steeler FB through and through
14. Tunch
15. Leon Searcy (Rookie year/non starter)

The cupboard was far from bare when Cowher took over. And this myth that he had to "rebuild" the team is just that. He brought in 3 rookies that year that would join the core players already there to form the nucleus of the '95 SB team. Most of the rest was already in place. In fact, you could say that Cowher's first SB trip was made with Noll's players.
Again, this isn't said to back up Tomlin, but rather in response to the "Cowher had to build from the bottom" statements. Simply not true.

 

[JJ_Steel]

We could not compete for free agents or re-sign whatever player we wanted prior to Heinz Field being built.in 2001. We were not on a level playing field economically and this greatly hampered Cowher and the Steelers from 1998-2000 as the team got older. Trying to compare the down years of 98-00 with the clusterfuck we have now with a franchise QB in his prime and consistently losing to bad teams at home is just ridiculous.

 

[ExUSAF]

Rebuilding starts when the three stooges are gone

These knee-jerk threads are becoming comical.

Yesterday was a punch in the gut loss. Alas, we are still 2-2, and despite what many would like to think- the team could improve as the season progresses. Who knows?

Do you realize that by blowing it up, there is a chance that you have to endure at least 3 years of suckage (at least)?! Hell, some of you were about to jump bridges because we only beat the Browns by 3!

How about we just sit back and see what we have. Because like it or not, this team is still in transition. Lets see if this team actually improves- because that is much easier than hitting the reset button.

"Let's see if this team actually improves" - anything we do after this week will be an improvement. Losing to Jacksonville by less than 3 will be an improvement.
"...by blowing it up, there is a chance that you have to endure at least 3 years of suckage" - You are going to have to endure 3 years of suckage after Tomlin, Haley, and LeBeau are gone. While we continue to have this triumvirant of coaching ineptitude, you can be guaranteed suckage as far as the eye can see.

 

[Tibs]

Ask yourself this question, if rooney released tomlin would anyone else make him a hc?

Don't kid yourself, Tomlin would get scooped up in a hurry. Look around the league, at all the coaching changes each year, Tomlin would be at the top of the list for many teams. Regardless of what our fan base thinks of him.

 

[Omar10213245]

No, Mike, the Steelers are now much worse than they were in 1998-2000. Specifically:

1998: -40 point differential, 19-16 OT loss on Thanksgiving with the Luckett "**** it" coin toss that killed the team. Still finished 7-9.

1999: 6-10 despite being even in point differential, and where the expected record per stats was 8-8. Lost 5 games by 7 points or less.

2000: 9-7 record, despite being +66 point differential. Lost 3 games by a field goal. Expected record based on point differential was 10-6.

So the team had one bad year - 1999. That year, the team was outscored by 40 points and finished 7-9. The other years, it was outscoring teams, and was a better team than the record indicated.

That is why the team went 13-3 in 2001, with Kordell freaking Stewart at QB. Think about that for a second - that team won more regular season games than Tomlin has ever won, with a lousy QB.

In comparison, the 2012-2014 Steelers are a true .500 team, despite a franchise QB, an exceptional TE, a HOF safety, and talented skill position players in Bell and Brown. The team is getting gouged by lousy QB's and if it had Kordell Stewart at QB, it would be a 5-11 or 4-12 team.

If Kordell were qb'ing this team as it is now, we'd be thrilled with the prospect of a 5 win season

 

[Bigappleyinzer]

The problem is not MT, or Todd or DL for that matter. The problem, especially on Defense, is talent.

We can all kick and scream about drafts- but the main problem is our SALARY CAP! (or lack therof)

Every year we are entirely dependent on the draft because we are over the cap and have been for almost a decade. This has hurt the team more than anything else.

 

[Wingman]

Don't kid yourself, Tomlin would get scooped up in a hurry. Look around the league, at all the coaching changes each year, Tomlin would be at the top of the list for many teams. Regardless of what our fan base thinks of him.

Hopefully it will be in the division then we can count on two wins a year.

 

[Omar10213245]

Don't kid yourself, Tomlin would get scooped up in a hurry. Look around the league, at all the coaching changes each year, Tomlin would be at the top of the list for many teams. Regardless of what our fan base thinks of him.

Right, but as I said before when someone brings up the "tomlin would be hired up in no time" schpiel: who cares? I could care less if the rams or some other group of schmoes makes a poor personnel decision. I'm just sick of our team not fixing THEIR bad decision.

 

[JJ_Steel]

The problem is not MT, or Todd or DL for that matter. The problem, especially on Defense, is talent.

We can all kick and scream about drafts- but the main problem is our SALARY CAP! (or lack therof)

Every year we are entirely dependent on the draft because we are over the cap and have been for almost a decade. This has hurt the team more than anything else.

Yeah, its not about signing bad players to huge contracts, like Gilbert , Allen, Colon, Kemoteau, etc over the years, etc. ALL teams play under the same rules, unfortunately we have a mediocre head coach who consistently loses to the bottom feeders of the NFL and in the end that causes us to miss the playoffs.

 

[Tibs]

I hate to say this, but the "cleaning house" sentiment for me really is on the defensive side of the ball. I think Dick Lebeau should hang it up, allow Butler to take over and implement whatever scheme he sees fit. Same goes for the old vets that are hanging on by a string, fueled by emotion and nostalgia - da Beard, Deebo, Ike and Troy. Their era is over, it's time to move on and completely revamp this Defense. And I say that with nothing but love and respect for everything LeBeau and those players have done over the years. But we can't keep running of fumes...

 

[Skott]

These knee-jerk threads are becoming comical.

Yesterday was a punch in the gut loss. Alas, we are still 2-2, and despite what many would like to think- the team could improve as the season progresses. Who knows?

Do you realize that by blowing it up, there is a chance that you have to endure at least 3 years of suckage (at least)?! Hell, some of you were about to jump bridges because we only beat the Browns by 3!

How about we just sit back and see what we have. Because like it or not, this team is still in transition. Lets see if this team actually improves- because that is much easier than hitting the reset button.

Whats so knee jerk about watching the same crap for 3 damn years, and Tomlin not being able to correct it?

Tomlin may be a players coach, but even the Pens fired Bylsma's *** after watching the same train wreck three years in a row.