When will Tomlin give rookie Matt Thomas a chance?

[Coach]

Disregarding Benchmarks now? That’s been the MO you’ve always used, albeit improperly with different positions. I was using SS position as a measurement. You say you settle for Ryan Clark? Well you compare him to Edmunds in his rookie season. Clark, who is a fave of mine personally, had 2 tackles in his rookie year as a back up SS with zero starts. So Edmunds has had more impact between the two. In fact Clark didn’t become a full time starter until his third year when he went to the Skins and played SS opposite to Taylor. When he came to Pitt he was a FS and was superb playing next to Polamalu. I only hope Edmunds has a successful career as Clark did.

Hey Nimrod, you imply Edmunds was to get a hat as a money backer in the dollar package, “but it went out if the window”. Yeah, genius because the player who was supposed to be the starting SS, Burnett, was injured. Therefore Edmunds had to go early in his spot. Now they have flipped roles and Burnett is the money backer.

And to your typical anti-Davis agenda rhetoric. You want to compare Davis to Clark since he’s playing Ryan’s FS spot? Let’s compare in the medium you say is truth. Stats. You would “settle” for Edmunds to at least be a Ryan Clark. Clark’s season high PDs as a FS is 8 (in his 8th year). His season high INT is 3 (he did it twice in his 4th and 8th year. Tackles in a season 104. He first reached 90 tackles in his 9th year, and went over 100 his last 4 years in the league. Davis has in 2 1/2 seasons equaled both Ryan’s PD and INT season highs. He had 90 tackles last year(69 as a rookie) and will probably break a hundred this year.

I agree more T/Os or change of possession downs are needed. But those usually happens in bunches, at least that’s historically how it’s occurred. There is a wax/wane to the T/O process.

“I had him at this round that round...” BS talk and only drives your narratives because you hyped/harped all kinds of players for years. Sometimes in the same breath. You can’t get it through that narrow minded skull of yours that the draft is a crap shoot as to where they will be picked, because each team has a formula for success. Some more than others. Others sometimes being God awful. In the same instance, what staff that player goes to is the difference in night and day. TMC knew this. Cope and Del and the couple others who actually do REAL player reviews understand it and use it in their objective findings. You however, can’t grasp objective analysis. Only opinion analysis. Which we all know in your own mind you think you are 100% at.

The draft can’t get here soon enough.....


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Yes, if Edmunds turns out to be Clark I'llbe happy

I never said he should be as good as Clark as a rookie. That's you puttingwords into my mouth I never said to make yourself look better.

As for Davis, you must not watch the games if you think he'd decent. He's not .He's an off coverage guy who tackles a player after the ball has been caughtfor the most part, and missed key tackles. His lack of ball skills speak forthemselves. He couldn't even get a gift interception vs. Jacksonville and justthree passes broken up for the season sucks.

When the draft comes go on record as I do, saying who you would have taken. I doubt you will. Your a glass house type with limited knowledge.

I wanted Reid in round one, who's far ahead of Edmunds, and looks like a pro bowl player,and Baker in round two who would star for us. So far who I wanted exceeds who the Steelersselected.

We went back and forth on the punter. The guy I wanted ( Dickson ) He onlyleads the NFL in Net punting yardage, meanwhile you boy Allen is MIA for theseasons, and mark my words is too slow to be deployed in coverage as a DB.

If you want more, I said Frazier was a wasted pick. Dude didn't even make thepractice squad.

PS: On Cowher, rookies did not play as much back then, but I do recall somerookies that Cowher played a lot

Examples. Kirkland, Steed, Searcy, Chad Brown, Buckner, Gilldon, CharlesJohnson, Bruner, Holmes, Faneca, and Ben to name a few. As usuallythe more you speak, the easier you are to expose.

 

[ark steel]

Didn't Ben start only because the starter got hurt?

 

[ark steel]

Not one NFL team saw Reid as anything more than a 3rd rounder or he would have gone earlier, btw.

As far as I'm concerned, im glad we don't have him.

 

[ark steel]

can you define "most", yet?

 

[Coach]

So you will not address the level of competition? It seems so important in the Oliver thread. Thomas shined in preseason against practice squad players and insurance salesmen, right? That does not translate to doing against actual starting NFL players.

What I do know is, if/when Williams/Bostic get their hands on an actual NFL player in a real game, they can get them tackled. Maybe it is after they caught the ball, maybe it is in the run game. I have no idea about that with Thomas. Preseason doesn't tell me that.

If we cycled out Bostic for Thomas what do you do when (not if) the QB changes it to a run and Thomas isn't as good a tackler as Bostic? You do know offenses do not have to pass on 3rd down, right?

See, I'm not telling you that you are wrong. I'm asking why on earth you are ignoring the level of competition he shined with.

Practice once the regular season start is light completion. In the pre-season, Thomas outshined Bostic and Williams. Thomas also looked solid with the first team when Tomlin gave him the chance in coverage if you remember during the preseason.

All 3rd string players who shine, they should be MOVED up, wouldn't you agree? That has not happened with Thomas so far.

 

[ark steel]

Practice once the regular season start is light completion. In the pre-season, Thomas outshined Bostic and Williams, while playing only against sub-par competition as I am huge proponent of only measuring a player's success based upon the competition against whom he played.

fixed it for you

 

[Coach]

Didn't Ben start only because the starter got hurt?

Didn't Edmunds rocket to #1 on the depth chart because Morgan Burnett was hurt? Ben was a talent. I was very excited on what I saw during his first the pre-season.

 

[Coach]

Not one NFL team saw Reid as anything more than a 3rd rounder or he would have gone earlier, btw.

As far as I'm concerned, im glad we don't have him.

I think his brother's action hurt him. You're glad we don't have him? He's doing better than Edmunds by a good margin.

Does it matter if Joel Steed, Jason Gildon, Hines Ward, Joey Porter, Max Starks, Mike Wallace were third round picks? Not at all, what matters is they could play.

 

[Coach]

fixed it for you

You forgot to add he played well with the first string unit when given the chance, so fix it again.

 

[ark steel]

Didn't Edmunds rocket to #1 on the depth chart because Morgan Burnett was hurt? Ben was a talent. I was very excited on what I saw during his first the pre-season.

That has nothing to do with anything. you said Cowher started rookies and showed some examples of which Ben was one. Except that wasn't an example of Cowher giving the rookie a chance to start, it was an injury. if that example is wrong, how do I know the others aren't?

 

[ark steel]

You forgot to add he played well with the first string unit when given the chance, so fix it again.

playing "with the first string unit" does not mean playing "against the first string unit". What about that isn't obvious to you?

 

[ark steel]

he must have only "played well with the first string unit" in game 3.

Looks like the starters listed in the game book for game 4 did not include but a couple of normal starters. And he didn't have his first tackle until 3:21 left in the 2nd quarter. The rest of his 10 tackles that game came against what level of players, do you think? Keep in mind Carolina's QB's for that game were Allen (PS player) , heinicke and Gilbert.

7 tackles in game 3: 7:35 left in the 1st (1st string in for us), 10:36 left in the 2nd (starters still in for us), 2:00 left in the 2nd (starters still in for us) To start the 3rd, ST tackle. 4:25 left in the 3rd (some of our starters still in, but to say it is the 1st string would be a stretch.

So, with our first string in the game he had 3 tackles. In that same time period Bostic had 4, one of which was a TFL. In that same time period V Williams had 3 tackles, a sack (I assume that is one of the tackles), one of the tackles was for a loss and a QB hit. Is that outshining Bostic and Williams while playing with the 1st string?

the other 3 tackles he made in this game came against what level of competition, do you think? Keep in mind that Mariota threw 8 passes in that game and Blaine Gabbert was the QB who threw the most for TN in that game.

So, again, against much lower level completion, Thomas did well in game 4. In game three, while on the field with starters he did not do as well as Bostic OR Williams. Are we clear on that now?

 

[ark steel]

I think his brother's action hurt him. You're glad we don't have him? He's doing better than Edmunds by a good margin.

Does it matter if Joel Steed, Jason Gildon, Hines Ward, Joey Porter, Max Starks, Mike Wallace were third round picks? Not at all, what matters is they could play.

Again, you bring up irrelevant ****. Who cares where those players went.

Reid's brother's actions didn't hurt him as much as the video he made professing support for those actions. So, yeah, I'm glad we don't have him. I don't care if he makes the Pro Bowl every year.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

he must have only "played well with the first string unit" in game 3.

Looks like the starters listed in the game book for game 4 did not include but a couple of normal starters. And he didn't have his first tackle until 3:21 left in the 2nd quarter. The rest of his 10 tackles that game came against what level of players, do you think? Keep in mind Carolina's QB's for that game were Allen (PS player) , heinicke and Gilbert.

7 tackles in game 3: 7:35 left in the 1st (1st string in for us), 10:36 left in the 2nd (starters still in for us), 2:00 left in the 2nd (starters still in for us) To start the 3rd, ST tackle. 4:25 left in the 3rd (some of our starters still in, but to say it is the 1st string would be a stretch.

So, with our first string in the game he had 3 tackles. In that same time period Bostic had 4, one of which was a TFL. In that same time period V Williams had 3 tackles, a sack (I assume that is one of the tackles), one of the tackles was for a loss and a QB hit. Is that outshining Bostic and Williams while playing with the 1st string?

the other 3 tackles he made in this game came against what level of competition, do you think? Keep in mind that Mariota threw 8 passes in that game and Blaine Gabbert was the QB who threw the most for TN in that game.

So, again, against much lower level completion, Thomas did well in game 4. In game three, while on the field with starters he did not do as well as Bostic OR Williams. Are we clear on that now?

Damn! Taking Coach out behind the wood shed!

 

[Ike Kelly]

Yes, if Edmunds turns out to be Clark I'llbe happy

I never said he should be as good as Clark as a rookie. That's you puttingwords into my mouth I never said to make yourself look better.

As for Davis, you must not watch the games if you think he'd decent. He's not .He's an off coverage guy who tackles a player after the ball has been caughtfor the most part, and missed key tackles. His lack of ball skills speak forthemselves. He couldn't even get a gift interception vs. Jacksonville and justthree passes broken up for the season sucks.

When the draft comes go on record as I do, saying who you would have taken. I doubt you will. Your a glass house type with limited knowledge.

I wanted Reid in round one, who's far ahead of Edmunds, and looks like a pro bowl player,and Baker in round two who would star for us. So far who I wanted exceeds who the Steelersselected.

We went back and forth on the punter. The guy I wanted ( Dickson ) He onlyleads the NFL in Net punting yardage, meanwhile you boy Allen is MIA for theseasons, and mark my words is too slow to be deployed in coverage as a DB.

If you want more, I said Frazier was a wasted pick. Dude didn't even make thepractice squad.

PS: On Cowher, rookies did not play as much back then, but I do recall somerookies that Cowher played a lot

Examples. Kirkland, Steed, Searcy, Chad Brown, Buckner, Gilldon, CharlesJohnson, Bruner, Holmes, Faneca, and Ben to name a few. As usuallythe more you speak, the easier you are to expose.

Read before you write genius. I didn’t put any words in your mouth, nor did I imply you said he should be as good as a rookie. What I said was you would “settle for a Ryan Clark” your own words. What he has shown so far is has started the entire year (10 games worth) and has played better at SS as Ryan did during his first year as a starter (WASH), which was his 3rd year. So he is performing better than Clark in his first year than Ryan’s 4th. So “you should be happy” in your own words. Now since I know you are going to say you meant when Clark was a Steeler, you would need to be reminded, Clark played FS opposite Troy at SS. Edmunds plays SS, not the position Clark played.

Which leads to your agenda driven diatribe about Davis which is all opinion based with no objectivity. “He’s an off coverage guy”. Oh Lord, how you are so clueless. What do you think the role of the FS is? They are the rear guard of defenses. The last line primarily. Their coverage is always “off”. Depending on the formation, they are covering over the top, or taking out passing lanes from which QBs read. You’ve been told this dozens of time, how can Davis have opportunities for PDs or T/Os when QBs are consistently avoiding his area. No one is getting picks on the D, why single out the FS? Because it doesn’t fit the many BS agendas you drive incessantly. Guess how many PDs Ryan Clark had in his 1st year as a FS. 4, and that was in 13 games. Davis has 3 more games to tie or exceed that number. So, by your own words Clark must have sucked, because he had a pathetic PD total. Ryan had 1 pick that year. 13 games! So he must have sucked at that too. But wait a minute.....you said you would settle for a player like Clark. So which is it? Your double speak is like BS through a goose on the greens at Pinehurst.

You draft musings and recollections of past predictions are self serving, boring and at times contradictory. You pick and choose your “claim to fame” of success when there is none. “Just as I predicted!” Is your calling card. Until you have something published and authenticated, it’s just your opinion. Nothing more. Just like mine will be if i am stupid enough to make proclamations like you do without a shred of self documented research and analysis.

Frazier was a wasted pick. Yeah, way to go out on a limb there on a late 7th round pick. Go ahead and give yourself credit for the punter Coach. You parade your proclamation about the best “net avg” punter out there. Too bad, net avg isn’t the ruling measurement of punters nowadays. Cope has given you so many examples as to why your logic is flawed, that a Wikipedia page was probably created.

LOL, “my boy” Marcus Allen. 5th rd pick. Big safety in a room with big safeties. He has the size and makeup to be Burnett’s replacement. But we won’t know that until he can get a hat again on game days.

Changing your tune on Tomlin not starting rookies. He’s started more rookies than Cowher ever did. Unless the player is a 1st or 2nd round pick he shouldn’t be starting any games until their 2nd or 3rd year. If they are then that’s great from a development standpoint and a good player evaluation by your personnel team.

And finally... know this. I wouldn’t want you to even try to contribute anything regarding me, positive or negative. Because you have no credibility whatsoever.


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[Stryker]

PS: On Cowher, rookies did not play as much back then, but I do recall somerookies that Cowher played a lot

Examples. Kirkland, Steed, Searcy, Chad Brown, Buckner, Gilldon, CharlesJohnson, Bruner, Holmes, Faneca, and Ben to name a few. As usuallythe more you speak, the easier you are to expose.

Wow. This is your argument?

Kirkland 0 games started as a rookie, 5 tackles on the season (ST)
Steed 4 games started as a rookie. 8 total tackles
Searcy 0 games started as a rookie
Chad Brown 9 games started
Buckner 5 games started
Gildon 1 game started in his first TWO YEARS
Charles Johnson 9 games started as a rookie
Bruner 13 games started as a blocking TE
Holmes 4 games started
Feneca 12 games started as a rookie
Ben didn't start until week 3 - injury to Maddox.

So not a single player listed was a week 1 starter for Cowher, and most didn't play half of their rookie seasons. Off the top of my head, I at least know Kendrell Bell was a week 1 starter

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Next!!

 

[Steelworth]

Coach can be summed up in one emoji

I'm going to start calling him Coach Conners because it's Groundhog Day, every day.

"Give it a rest, Coach!
You're wrong again, today!
Give it up, Coach!
Oh yeah we see, the charade!
Look at me, I can be, ******* redundant!"

That last line was a terrible attempt but it's all I got.

 

[ark steel]

Wow. This is your argument?

Kirkland 0 games started as a rookie, 5 tackles on the season (ST)
Steed 4 games started as a rookie. 8 total tackles
Searcy 0 games started as a rookie
Chad Brown 9 games started
Buckner 5 games started
Gildon 1 game started in his first TWO YEARS
Charles Johnson 9 games started as a rookie
Bruner 13 games started as a blocking TE
Holmes 4 games started
Feneca 12 games started as a rookie
Ben didn't start until week 3 - injury to Maddox.

So not a single player listed was a week 1 starter for Cowher, and most didn't play half of their rookie seasons. Off the top of my head, I at least know Kendrell Bell was a week 1 starter

if that example is wrong, how do I know the others aren't?

Honestly, I didn't expect it to be more than 1 other than Ben...

 

[topseed]

Top,

Bostic is still leading the team in tackles, and by my account he is subbed on all packages. He was brought in to be a run stopper who doesn’t miss tackles. He has been a steadying presence in the middle to get the run defense back on track. Yes the Denver game we gave up a 100+ yards, but the majority of those yards were on 2 plays. One with the no-call on Williams hold, and the other Walton left his gap for Lindsey to spring through.

Obvious passing situations, we are seeing Fort and/or Burnett or on a few occasions the dollar package. So his matchup limitations are recognized, but when he is in the game he knows where he is supposed to be. I know he’s occasionally having to cover a TE, but you got to give credit to the other teams play calling on matchups. Every beat writer has indicated in some fashion Bostic has been a solid pickup to this defense. They knew they weren’t getting another player like Shazier, so the plan was to get someone who stops the run, and tackles well. Coverage can be handled through sub -packages and to an extent, the D has been playing well these past several games with this model. The missing piece being a DB opposite Joe.

I figured you were going to mention that Bostic still leads the team in tackles. That's nice, but Williams is only a couple behind, and is averaging more per game. And let's take a closer look at the 4 tackles Bostic recorded against Denver, shall we?

1) Assisted tackle along with Davis on a 2-yard run on the first play of the game. Didn't see it, local Philadelphia CBS station decided to show the scintillating end of the Bills/Jags game followed by about 50 commercials, so we joined the Steelers game in progress at 4:30.

2) Solo tackle on the tight end Heuerman, 29 yards down the field in coverage on a 2nd-and-8, setting up Denver for their first field goal.

3) Solo tackle on the tight end LaCosse, a 7 yard gain on 1st-and-10.

4) Solo tackle on Freeman, a 5 yard gain on 2nd-and-1 during Denver's game-winning drive.

That's it statistically for your leading tackler. One assist, one huge first down gain allowed in coverage, one nice gain allowed in coverage, and one easy first down gain on the ground.

A couple other important Bostic (mis)plays I observed:

1) For some reason essentially running into the back of Alualu and getting caught up outside, while Lindsay was running right behind him for 32 yards in the 2nd quarter on Denver's first TD drive.

2) Completely biting on a fake screen pass where Edmunds and Watt already had the back covered in the flat, vacating his zone in the middle, and turning around to watch Heuerman gain 15 yards.

3) On the very next play, getting undressed by Sanders across the middle for 14 more yards in a complete mismatch to set Denver up for a 1st-and-goal at the 5, where 2 plays later Lindsay walks into the endzone...as the run-stopper who doesn't miss tackles is easily blocked to the inside.


You read the beat writers, I'll watch the games. The guy sucks. And after watching Fort again more closely, he's only marginally better. They need to get Burnett more snaps.

 

[Coach]

Wow. This is your argument?

Kirkland 0 games started as a rookie, 5 tackles on the season (ST)
Steed 4 games started as a rookie. 8 total tackles
Searcy 0 games started as a rookie
Chad Brown 9 games started
Buckner 5 games started
Gildon 1 game started in his first TWO YEARS
Charles Johnson 9 games started as a rookie
Bruner 13 games started as a blocking TE
Holmes 4 games started
Feneca 12 games started as a rookie
Ben didn't start until week 3 - injury to Maddox.

So not a single player listed was a week 1 starter for Cowher, and most didn't play half of their rookie seasons. Off the top of my head, I at least know Kendrell Bell was a week 1 starter

I said played a lot as a rookie.


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[Coach]

When will Tomlin give rookie Matt Thoams a chance?

I figured you were going to mention that Bostic still leads the team in tackles. That's nice, but Williams is only a couple behind, and is averaging more per game. And let's take a closer look at the 4 tackles Bostic recorded against Denver, shall we?

1) Assisted tackle along with Davis on a 2-yard run on the first play of the game. Didn't see it, local Philadelphia CBS station decided to show the scintillating end of the Bills/Jags game followed by about 50 commercials, so we joined the Steelers game in progress at 4:30.

2) Solo tackle on the tight end Heuerman, 29 yards down the field in coverage on a 2nd-and-8, setting up Denver for their first field goal.

3) Solo tackle on the tight end LaCosse, a 7 yard gain on 1st-and-10.

4) Solo tackle on Freeman, a 5 yard gain on 2nd-and-1 during Denver's game-winning drive.

That's it statistically for your leading tackler. One assist, one huge first down gain allowed in coverage, one nice gain allowed in coverage, and one easy first down gain on the ground.

A couple other important Bostic (mis)plays I observed:

1) For some reason essentially running into the back of Alualu and getting caught up outside, while Lindsay was running right behind him for 32 yards in the 2nd quarter on Denver's first TD drive.

2) Completely biting on a fake screen pass where Edmunds and Watt already had the back covered in the flat, vacating his zone in the middle, and turning around to watch Heuerman gain 15 yards.

3) On the very next play, getting undressed by Sanders across the middle for 14 more yards in a complete mismatch to set Denver up for a 1st-and-goal at the 5, where 2 plays later Lindsay walks into the endzone...as the run-stopper who doesn't miss tackles is easily blocked to the inside.


You read the beat writers, I'll watch the games. The guy sucks. And after watching Fort again more closely, he's only marginally better. They need to get Burnett more snaps.

The truth. Excellent. Ike will need new sunglasses after reading that.


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[Ike Kelly]

I figured you were going to mention that Bostic still leads the team in tackles. That's nice, but Williams is only a couple behind, and is averaging more per game. And let's take a closer look at the 4 tackles Bostic recorded against Denver, shall we?

1) Assisted tackle along with Davis on a 2-yard run on the first play of the game. Didn't see it, local Philadelphia CBS station decided to show the scintillating end of the Bills/Jags game followed by about 50 commercials, so we joined the Steelers game in progress at 4:30.

2) Solo tackle on the tight end Heuerman, 29 yards down the field in coverage on a 2nd-and-8, setting up Denver for their first field goal.

3) Solo tackle on the tight end LaCosse, a 7 yard gain on 1st-and-10.

4) Solo tackle on Freeman, a 5 yard gain on 2nd-and-1 during Denver's game-winning drive.

That's it statistically for your leading tackler. One assist, one huge first down gain allowed in coverage, one nice gain allowed in coverage, and one easy first down gain on the ground.

A couple other important Bostic (mis)plays I observed:

1) For some reason essentially running into the back of Alualu and getting caught up outside, while Lindsay was running right behind him for 32 yards in the 2nd quarter on Denver's first TD drive.

2) Completely biting on a fake screen pass where Edmunds and Watt already had the back covered in the flat, vacating his zone in the middle, and turning around to watch Heuerman gain 15 yards.

3) On the very next play, getting undressed by Sanders across the middle for 14 more yards in a complete mismatch to set Denver up for a 1st-and-goal at the 5, where 2 plays later Lindsay walks into the endzone...as the run-stopper who doesn't miss tackles is easily blocked to the inside.


You read the beat writers, I'll watch the games. The guy sucks. And after watching Fort again more closely, he's only marginally better. They need to get Burnett more snaps.

All good points, which I don’t refute. But as I commented, he was brought in for stuffing the run and having a solid tackler with the unit. His coverage limitations are recognized, which is why he is always replaced in sub packages on obvious passing downs. Sometimes you have to give credit to the offense when they find a mismatch. But, no doubt in coverage he is limited. They knew that when they signed him. Hence the plan to have a big coverage safety to replace him on passing situations.

The statement about him leading in tackles was meant to emphasize he’s doing it while only being a 2 down player. So it’s the efficiency when he’s playing on run downs. Williams should be leading by far.

I only asserted he was a good pick up to settle down the run defense and bring it back to a strength of the unit, which has always been the number 1 goal of the defense. Stop the run, force passing situations.

I read the beat writers and watch all the games. I don’t always agree with what they say either. But they do have more insight and accessibility than the national writers and to that I give them more credibility.

Kudos to you in the gripe about the network telecast. Totally ridiculous and pissed me off as well. In this day and age the networks don’t have to worry about another Heidi incident and get their switchboard lit up. If you are showing a national game, why would preempt it with a non national one?




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[ExUSAF]

I guess it's a moot point. Thomas was waived today.

 

[bigtwnvin]

I guess it's a moot point. Thomas was waived today.

But what about "Thoams"?