THE SYSTEM HAS FAILED

[Confluence]

Signing Aaron Rogers will not make the”system” better. All it will do is make the circus a three ringer!

At least when the circus leaves you can point to the elephant shiit, the horse shiit, etc and get folks to clean it up.

 

[NorthernBlitz]

To be honest, I don't think Art II has as much say as Mr. Dan Rooney did. I could be wrong, but Art II doesn't come across as big a football guy as his Dad was in terms of knowing how to put a winning team together. Mr Dan Rooney built teams on doing things the Steeler way, bringing in kids and developing them as players and men with a common mindset and sense of unity with the city. I just don't see that anymore.

This may be correct.

And it's the opposite of what people said in the past. IIRC Dan was solely in charge when we would be good but not good enough under Cowher. So the talk was that he didn't care about winning. Only about money.

Art II was named team president in 2003. Ben's first season was the 2004 season. We won a SB in 2005. Then 2008. Then went to another in 2010.

So at that time people were saying that the Chief's namesake was the savior of the franchise.

Now we're back to being consistently competitive, so people blame Art II.

I think it's pretty clear that the difference is Ben at his peak. And some pretty bad injury luck in the BBB era (not just to the B's but to 50 as well...Tuitt's situation didn't help either, but the main window was over by then anyway).

 

[NorthernBlitz]

Cowher had Ben for 3 years, comparing 3 years to 15 years worth of production is pretty dumb. Comparing how the two coaches used Ben is also dumb, as Cowher never had that seasoned vet in his prime version of Ben. You keep talking about Ben's peers, but how many sure fire HOF players at QB in the AFC were there? Rivers? Manning, Brady...It's not like it was littered with all pro's.

Keep coming up with excuses for Tomlin not winning more, you can love him and think he's not the problem, but the rest of us, and the national media are starting to see the real issue with the Steelers...

I'm just pointing out facts.

Sorry they don't fit your narrative as cleanly as you'd like.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Not really. Just in this thread.
As local sports radio guys have noted, what the national media doesn’t get is that in Pittsburgh that “never a losing season” moniker is a punchline.

There’s the difference…

The “Tomlin’s a great coach” crowd point to the stat as if he’s overcome something by not having a 6-11 or 7-10 season…like the high floor is something to be reckoned with and recognized as some sort of badge of honor or statistical feat. This crowd will lap up and applaud the mediocrity. I’ve generally seen this crew of Steeler fans as the younger participation trophy kind of fan.

The “Tomlin is a meh coach” crowd use it as a punchline as if 8-8, 9-7 or 10-6 and getting mollywhopped in the WC round is some sort of flex or something to be proud of…how low his ceiling is in fact the joke. This crowd is largely the older die hards that remember a higher standard and still wish that standard was held.

The reality always lays in the middle it seems,
He’s not nearly as great as some make him out to be or as piss poor as others make him to be.

He’s above average in the regular season and trending toward miserable failure in the post season.

Personally, I set a higher standard so flexing about endless 9-7, 10-6 seasons followed by a WC game being over at half time is in fact a joke.

About as funny of a joke as “a dyslexic walks into a bra…”

 

[Ron Burgundy]

There’s the difference…

The “Tomlin’s a great coach” crowd point to the stat as if he’s overcome something by not having a 6-11 or 7-10 season…like the high floor is something to be reckoned with and recognized as some sort of badge of honor or statistical feat. This crowd will lap up and applaud the mediocrity. I’ve generally seen this crew of Steeler fans as the younger participation trophy kind of fan.

The “Tomlin is a meh coach” crowd use it as a punchline as if 8-8, 9-7 or 10-6 and getting mollywhopped in the WC round is some sort of flex or something to be proud of…how low his ceiling is in fact the joke. This crowd is largely the older die hards that remember a higher standard and still wish that standard was held.

The reality always lays in the middle it seems,
He’s not nearly as great as some make him out to be or as piss poor as others make him to be.

He’s above average in the regular season and trending toward miserable failure in the post season.

Personally, I set a higher standard so flexing about endless 9-7, 10-6 seasons followed by a WC game being over at half time is in fact a joke.

About as funny of a joke as “a dyslexic walks into a bra…”

Same.
I've always said that Shades isn't a bad coach, I think he's a good coach.
Bad coaches don't go 18 years without a losing season. But he's not a great coach. Great coaches win more than 3 playoff games in 13 years and none in the last 8.
Back in the day we used to call The Chin "Marty Schottenheimer, Jr." Anymore it looks like Shades is the new Marty Jr.

 

[Steeler Pride]

Except that Colbert was pretty good at drafting HOF'ers prior to Tomlin being here.

Bingo, sums it up 100%!

 

[insaniti]

I'm just pointing out facts.

Sorry they don't fit your narrative as cleanly as you'd like.

This is ******* gold right here. You just joined, and you're already tiresome...

 

[Diamond Dave]

You also can't win with **** QBs.

We have a scheme that gets us more wins than our talent dictates.

But you can't win this way against good teams with elite QBs.

And since there are so many very high end QBs in the AFC, we're screwed in the playoffs.

That won't change until we have a QB that's above average. Likely well above average.

I'm still hoping that we roll with Mason this year instead of overpaying for Rodgers. I'll be interested to see if Mason continues to throw over the middle like he did in the few games he played replacing Kenny.

Pickett wasn't a **** QB. He is now, but when he came in he had a tremendous upside. I watched that guy at Pitt and saw what he had. So did other teams. The Steelers weren't the only ones chasing him on draft day. The Steelers hung him out to dry with **** coaching and a **** co-ordinator. No one would have flourished in that system. The Steelers ruined him and he'll never be what he could have been.

 

[Badcat]

Pickett wasn't a **** QB. He is now, but when he came in he had a tremendous upside. I watched that guy at Pitt and saw what he had. So did other teams. The Steelers weren't the only ones chasing him on draft day. The Steelers hung him out to dry with **** coaching and a **** co-ordinator. No one would have flourished in that system. The Steelers ruined him and he'll never be what he could have been.

Can you imagine the outrage on here if Jr Whopper hands shreds the Steelers D twice this year?

But, they're the browns...so the opposite will probably happen.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Pickett wasn't a **** QB. He is now, but when he came in he had a tremendous upside. I watched that guy at Pitt and saw what he had. So did other teams. The Steelers weren't the only ones chasing him on draft day. The Steelers hung him out to dry with **** coaching and a **** co-ordinator. No one would have flourished in that system. The Steelers ruined him and he'll never be what he could have been.

100%
It's not like it'll be any better with the Browns, sorry Kenny, but with Watson at #1 at least he'll get to play a lot.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Can you imagine the outrage on here if Jr Whopper hands shreds the Steelers D twice this year?

But, they're the browns...so the opposite will probably happen.

That “Jr Whopper hands” cracked me up, thanks for the laugh !!!!!



Salute the nation

 

[NorthernBlitz]

Pickett wasn't a **** QB. He is now, but when he came in he had a tremendous upside. I watched that guy at Pitt and saw what he had. So did other teams. The Steelers weren't the only ones chasing him on draft day. The Steelers hung him out to dry with **** coaching and a **** co-ordinator. No one would have flourished in that system. The Steelers ruined him and he'll never be what he could have been.

I agree that he was a mystery box when we drafted him. So he had potential to be something. I was excited about the idea that he was a QB that could make quick decisions and deliver accurate passes. At least that's what I remember from the scouting reports.

I think it was a reasonable bet to draft him when we needed a QB and he fell to us. I also think it was the right decision not to trade up for him.

But the bet didn't pay out. Because it turned out that he wasn't good. But we didn't know that when he was drafted.

Maybe he'll get a chance to show that we made a mistake this year. Could see him getting starts in CLE.

 

[insaniti]

I agree that he was a mystery box when we drafted him. So he had potential to be something. I was excited about the idea that he was a QB that could make quick decisions and deliver accurate passes. At least that's what I remember from the scouting reports.

I think it was a reasonable bet to draft him when we needed a QB and he fell to us. I also think it was the right decision not to trade up for him.

But the bet didn't pay out. Because it turned out that he wasn't good. But we didn't know that when he was drafted.

Maybe he'll get a chance to show that we made a mistake this year. Could see him getting starts in CLE.

Do we really know that he wasn't good enough? The owner and GM both stated they were behind him, that he need to make a big jump in the coming season, but they would do what was necessary to help him. Then Tomlin brought in Wilson and promised him the starting role. Do you blame Pickett for wanting out at that point?

It's the same **** that just happened, Khan and Rooney said they wanted one of Fields or Wilson back, that was the priority, then Tomlin got a whiff of Rodgers incense and has been chasing that tail ever since.

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

100%
It's not like it'll be any better with the Browns, sorry Kenny, but with Watson at #1 at least he'll get to play a lot.

Waston isn't even number 4. He reinjured his Achillies recently and is done for this year I believe.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Waston isn't even number 4. He reinjured his Achillies recently and is done for this year I believe.

Worst trade in history, surpassing the Vikings trading half their team and their whole draft for Herschel Walker.

 

[NorthernBlitz]

Can you imagine the outrage on here if Jr Whopper hands shreds the Steelers D twice this year?

But, they're the browns...so the opposite will probably happen.

This has got to be the worst case scenario.

But even if he wins their starting job, his history suggests that it's not likely that he won't be healthy for both games against us.

Do we really know that he wasn't good enough? The owner and GM both stated they were behind him, that he need to make a big jump in the coming season, but they would do what was necessary to help him. Then Tomlin brought in Wilson and promised him the starting role. Do you blame Pickett for wanting out at that point?

It's the same **** that just happened, Khan and Rooney said they wanted one of Fields or Wilson back, that was the priority, then Tomlin got a whiff of Rodgers incense and has been chasing that tail ever since.

My guess is that we never "really know" how good a player is. It's true for guys who don't look great in a bad system without good skill players (like Kenny). And for guys like Purdy who look good in a great system with elite skill players.

And some guys just bloom later. This is a think I was worried about re: Kenny. That he got the benefit of the extra covid year, so there weren't really many comps for guys who had started as many years as he did in college. But I think the pick was a reasonable bet given the need and when we were picking.

I don't think any evidence from his time on the field in the NFL shows that he's a starter. I think he did look better in the start he got in PHI. But he also got hurt in that game. Something that happened too much when he was here too.

I don't blame Pickett for wanting out. I don't blame players for wanted to be in the best situations for themselves. For example, I thought Bell's decision not to sign our offer was stupid. But I don't think it made him a bad person. Same with Kenny.

I also think that they probably told Kenny that he and Mason would compete for the job. Then Wilson kind of fell in our laps and it seemed like a better opportunity. The irony is that if he stayed, he would have gotten way more PT with us (assuming we wouldn't have gotten Fields if we didn't trade Kenny).

I wouldn't be surprised if his "true value" or whatever is higher than what he was able to show in Canada's offense (basically worst all time TD%). But I think if he was an above average QB, we would have seen it.

Loved the come back against the Rats though with that great throw to Najee. The great catch on the other end of that is also the signature play I'll remember Najee by I think.

FWIW, I think they did want Fields back. But I think that Kahn puts a value on a guy and doesn't like to move from that. I also think our offer wouldn't have been competitive even if the total contract value was the same. The Steelers don't like to guarantee money outside of year one. And I think Fields has 75% (?) of his contract guaranteed. I think we wanted him...but only at our price.

I think we're seeing now that when we said "Fields and Wilson", we really only meant "Fields". I think we included "and Wilson" to try to get some kind of leverage with Fields. Maybe that backfired (but I think it's about guarantees). There's probably also some "why the hell didn't you play me then?" feel from Fields. But I think those kinds of issues generally get ironed out with players when you make the best financial offer.

 

[insaniti]

FWIW, I think they did want Fields back. But I think that Kahn puts a value on a guy and doesn't like to move from that. I also think our offer wouldn't have been competitive even if the total contract value was the same. The Steelers don't like to guarantee money outside of year one. And I think Fields has 75% (?) of his contract guaranteed. I think we wanted him...but only at our price.

Both Watt and Minkah had guarantee's beyond the first year, as does DK. I think how Tomlin handled Fields had more to do with him not coming back than money. And that's not just a random guess made out of nowhere, that's years of seeing promises made and promises broken (ie Deebo, Blount, Ingram, Pickett).

 

[Coryea]

Both Watt and Minkah had guarantee's beyond the first year, as does DK. I think how Tomlin handled Fields had more to do with him not coming back than money. And that's not just a random guess made out of nowhere, that's years of seeing promises made and promises broken (ie Deebo, Blount, Ingram, Pickett).

There was a report somewhere that said we would not guarantee Fields the top spot going into camp was a reason, along with the 10 million less in guarantees we were offering that he didn't sign here.

 

[insaniti]

There was a report somewhere that said we would not guarantee Fields the top spot going into camp was a reason, along with the 10 million less in guarantees we were offering that he didn't sign here.

There's also a report that said Fields felt betrayed by the way they handled his benching and was a contributing factor in him signing with NY. There's also a report out there that the deal for Aiyuk is done.

 

[Coryea]

There's also a report that said Fields felt betrayed by the way they handled his benching and was a contributing factor in him signing with NY. There's also a report out there that the deal for Aiyuk is done.

I'm sure that had something to do with it too, I mean it's not like Tomlin hasn't promised players things before and not followed through, the National media always likes to say everyone wants to play for Tomlin, they fail to mention how many players have quit on him.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

This has got to be the worst case scenario.

But even if he wins their starting job, his history suggests that it's not likely that he won't be healthy for both games against us.

My guess is that we never "really know" how good a player is. It's true for guys who don't look great in a bad system without good skill players (like Kenny). And for guys like Purdy who look good in a great system with elite skill players.

And some guys just bloom later. This is a think I was worried about re: Kenny. That he got the benefit of the extra covid year, so there weren't really many comps for guys who had started as many years as he did in college. But I think the pick was a reasonable bet given the need and when we were picking.

I don't think any evidence from his time on the field in the NFL shows that he's a starter. I think he did look better in the start he got in PHI. But he also got hurt in that game. Something that happened too much when he was here too.

I don't blame Pickett for wanting out. I don't blame players for wanted to be in the best situations for themselves. For example, I thought Bell's decision not to sign our offer was stupid. But I don't think it made him a bad person. Same with Kenny.

I also think that they probably told Kenny that he and Mason would compete for the job. Then Wilson kind of fell in our laps and it seemed like a better opportunity. The irony is that if he stayed, he would have gotten way more PT with us (assuming we wouldn't have gotten Fields if we didn't trade Kenny).

I wouldn't be surprised if his "true value" or whatever is higher than what he was able to show in Canada's offense (basically worst all time TD%). But I think if he was an above average QB, we would have seen it.

Loved the come back against the Rats though with that great throw to Najee. The great catch on the other end of that is also the signature play I'll remember Najee by I think.

FWIW, I think they did want Fields back. But I think that Kahn puts a value on a guy and doesn't like to move from that. I also think our offer wouldn't have been competitive even if the total contract value was the same. The Steelers don't like to guarantee money outside of year one. And I think Fields has 75% (?) of his contract guaranteed. I think we wanted him...but only at our price.

I think we're seeing now that when we said "Fields and Wilson", we really only meant "Fields". I think we included "and Wilson" to try to get some kind of leverage with Fields. Maybe that backfired (but I think it's about guarantees). There's probably also some "why the hell didn't you play me then?" feel from Fields. But I think those kinds of issues generally get ironed out with players when you make the best financial offer.

I’ve said before that we don’t really know if KP is good or not. His two seasons here he played under the worst OC in the league, the first Steelers coach fired mid-season since 1945.
I think he won the one game he started for Philly but going to the Browns is another quarterback graveyard.
He might be good, he might not be, but without a decent coach we’ll never know.
And again, the best ability is availability.

 

[Fiji Mariner]

Both Watt and Minkah had guarantee's beyond the first year, as does DK. I think how Tomlin handled Fields had more to do with him not coming back than money. And that's not just a random guess made out of nowhere, that's years of seeing promises made and promises broken (ie Deebo, Blount, Ingram, Pickett).

100% this^^^^

Tomlin mismanaged the QB room…yet again, it’s what he does.

Fields was smart enough to escape from Mike’s world of broken dreams and not look back. Only a desperate person (or a complete moron) would’ve come back to work for Mike in the work environment he is creating. If I’m Fields I would’ve taken less money elsewhere just to get out.

Don’t blame Fields one bit for not coming back for more mistreatment. Best of luck to the young man, he’ll need it in N’yack

 

[NorthernBlitz]

I’ve said before that we don’t really know if KP is good or not. His two seasons here he played under the worst OC in the league, the first Steelers coach fired mid-season since 1945.
I think he won the one game he started for Philly but going to the Browns is another quarterback graveyard.
He might be good, he might not be, but without a decent coach we’ll never know.
And again, the best ability is availability.

I agree that we don't know. But I think it's probably something like 80/20 that he's not good.

My guess is that an average to above average starting QB isn't going to be historically bad at things like TD% even in a really bad system.

Although getting fired as an OC mid-season in Pittsburgh means you're also a historically bad OC IMO.

Remember how much better Rudolph looked (except for the monsoon game against the Rats)? I'm not sure how different that system was (although play calling was likely better). And while Mason has a lot more time in the NFL, I think Kenny had more NFL snaps at that point (or at least they were similar). Could be wrong on that, but I think I checked it at the time.

We'll see this year. Not much competition for the starting job in CLE. Although they'll probably pick one at 2OA.

 

[NorthernBlitz]

Both Watt and Minkah had guarantee's beyond the first year, as does DK. I think how Tomlin handled Fields had more to do with him not coming back than money. And that's not just a random guess made out of nowhere, that's years of seeing promises made and promises broken (ie Deebo, Blount, Ingram, Pickett).

FWIW, I wanted us to resign Fields. Not because I thought he'd get us out of this get in as a WC and not be competitive in the playoffs. Because I figured he'd be ~ $10MM less than other options. Wasn't the case with Wilson. But I do think we'll end up paying Rodgers more than Wilson got (but less than the crazy numbers that were originally reported he wanted).

I think it's true that how Fields was handled likely hurt. One of the things I really liked about Fields was how good a team mate he was even after he was put back on the bench. My guess is that Fields wasn't made any promises though. I think Wilson was. And I think this is a case where we should have made a change there late in the season.

But I also think we pretty much know for certain that there would be less guaranteed money in whatever contract we offered. And when it's reported that the Steelers were "close" to the Jets offer, it also suggests that the AAV and total money were less.

So it's an easy call to take the deal with more total money, more guarantees, and a team that didn't piss you off last year. I tend to believe that players will take the money (especially guarantees) almost every time though.

Impossible to know the truth though.

 

[NorthernBlitz]

100% this^^^^

Tomlin mismanaged the QB room…yet again, it’s what he does.

Fields was smart enough to escape from Mike’s world of broken dreams and not look back. Only a desperate person (or a complete moron) would’ve come back to work for Mike in the work environment he is creating. If I’m Fields I would’ve taken less money elsewhere just to get out.

Don’t blame Fields one bit for not coming back for more mistreatment. Best of luck to the young man, he’ll need it in N’yack

Not on this board, but I remember people saying the same thing about Mason last off season.

I thought they'd bring back Mason and Kenny. And that in a fair competition Mason would win the job.

But taking the bet on Wilson was just a better option IMO.

I don't think the same thing about Rodgers. Hope to be wrong because I think he'll sign with us.