Covid Vaccine

[madinsomniac]

im really trying to distance myself from this debate because honestly we aren’t going to know much to influence it for at least a year till some of the new research is done and probably not definitely for about 5 years

This argument is devolved into observational data taken out of context… both sides will see what they want…

that Kentucky study, for instance…. Done over two months… with roughly 250 cases and twice tgat in controls… they at least tried to put the test in context, and they did a confidence coefficient calculation unlike so many

but its not clinical and tgey even admit in the paper at the end its too small, has too many biases and doesn’t prove causation…

the biases discussed at the end clearly point out that there were 5 serious flaws to affect the results

It was observational data collected from databases … basically they weren’t taking 750 people and testing them frequently or exposing them to the virus… they simply looked up positive test results in December of 2020 and then tracked reinfection in may and june of 2021… only 20% were vaccinated and they even admit that vaccinated people are less likely to be tested

This study is very flawed… it doesn’t account for exposure or lack thereof nor does it verify anything along the way…

if you got tested positive then in a two month timeframe six months later happen to test positive again you affected the data… with only a couple hundred people, and 70-80% unvaccinated, the data could be largly affected by even a couple asymptomatic cases that didn’t get tested or simply never were exposed
Too small too short too biased… heck that summarizes their own criticisms… also they openly admit that it contradicts the results from multiple lab controlled experiments as well as larger and longer observational data pulls that factor in many of this papers biases…

basically its a great example of why thorough large scale testing should have been done before trying to release it to everyone… small snapshots can draw a faulty conclusion that we are seeing major contradictions from better studies released just months later

 

[SteelChip]

Vile Comrade Tibs, useful idiot,

here is what the CDC says about the flu, in just one typical flu season:

"CDC estimates that the burden of illness during the 2018–2019 season included an estimated 35.5 million people getting sick with influenza, 16.5 million people going to a health care provider for their illness, 490,600 hospitalizations, and 34,200 deaths from influenza (Table 1). The number of influenza-associated illnesses that occurred last season was similar to the estimated number of influenza-associated illnesses during the 2012–2013 influenza season when an estimated 34 million people had symptomatic influenza illness6.

 

[Troglodyte]

That is all true except we are not talking about that. We are talking 10's of thousands of cases of deaths that had NOTHING to do with COvid aside from they tested positive for it. People in Hospice already dying, car accidents, aneurysms, major coronary disease many other things that were not caused by Covid or had anything to do with it. I said there are other murkier cases as you allude to but that isn't what we are talking about. They did not even attempt to determine if causality. Many countries did. In doing so it has inevitably over inflated the counting of deaths due to Covid or covid related health problems. I am differentiating between those and the type 2 who was poorly controlled but would have lived years without getting Covid.

If a person was in hospice or had major coronary disease, that is exactly what I was talking about. Covid was likely the final straw. The hospice people would have died anyway. The ones with coronary disease or chemotherapy patients might have lived years, you can’t dismiss those.

As far as car accidents, etc? Tens of thousands that coincidentally died of an acute event during the 10-14 days that they had Covid that had nothing to do with Covid? Think through the odds of that happening. So at least 20,000 people, 1 OUT OF EVERY 33 supposed Covid deaths, was actually due to some UNRELATED COINCIDENTAL acute event? No way.

 

[Troglodyte]

Imagine, all he had to do was call an Uber. Or click his seatbelt. Or take two aspirin after feeling chest pain. Or not take that shot of horse.

Imagine the regret for decisions that would have taken just a minute of your time.

Exactly, not wearing a seatbelt or driving drunk or shooting up heroin are idiotic, much like not getting vaccinated.

 

[Troglodyte]

you have got to be the single most willfully ignorant ************ to ever grace the world wide web that Al Gore created. In fact, you make him weep with your stupidity. You make Darwin cross-check to see where he went wrong. You disgrace the lowest of the low-intelligence voters (Democrats, you dweeb) with your continued inane parroting.

the "effectiveness of the vaccine" was NOT why ... NOT ... WHY ... the WHO requested this. again. read this sentence. I'll put it in multiple colors and bold it for you.

We need an urgent reversal from the majority of vaccines going to high-income countries to the majority going to low-income countries

The reasoning is the same. There is little current benefit to boosters. The vaccines are STILL highly effective against serious illness. Getting a booster, for all except the immunocompromised, will improve efficacy against mild to moderate illness. The far greater issue is the number of people not vaccinated whether it be foreign or domestic.

 

[Troglodyte]

You're linky game absolutely sucks. First time on Google?

The AZ CEO says they "may" not be needed and he needs more data (have him give me a call) AND because they don't want to put undue pressure on NHS. NOWHERE does he say they are NOT needed.

Why is Israel working with President Pee Pads and the FDA to prepare for booster shots and why does the White House continue to say September 20 is the date for boosters and why is Israel administering boosters and why is nearly every damned country in the world preparing for or delivering boosters.....if they aren't needed?

They are needed because the effectiveness of the vaccines have waned based on study after study after study after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study after after study that has been presented to you that you choose to ignore.

AstraZeneca saying not to rush into boosters. Pfizer CEO says boosters needed now.

And they wonder why we don't trust them. Oh well, in cases like this, go with the overwhelming data.

Israel to brief FDA on Covid-19 vaccine boosters as health experts seek data to back Biden’s 3rd jab rollout plan

Israeli health officials have agreed to present data from their country’s rollout of Covid-19 vaccine booster shots to the FDA, potentially providing ammunition to help the Biden administration justify such a program in the US.

www.rt.com

The CDC:

New CDC studies point to waning immunity from vaccines

The publication of the studies comes a week after the agency released its first three reports on vaccine efficacy.

www.politico.com

UVA:

Q&A: What to Know About Waning Vaccine Effectiveness and Booster Shots

UVA’s Dr. William Petri explains the reasoning behind the U.S. government’s plan for COVID-19 booster shots, beginning next month.

news.virginia.edu

USAToday:

'Keep your guard up': CDC studies show waning COVID-19 vaccine efficacy as delta variant sweeps US

Unvaccinated people in Los Angeles were more than 29 times more likely to be hospitalized than the vaccinated, according to a CDC study.

www.usatoday.com

CNBC:

Covid protection for the fully vaccinated is waning, UK study finds

Protection against the coronavirus is waning among those who have received both shots of the AstraZeneca and Pfizer vaccines, a new U.K. study has found.

www.cnbc.com

CIDRAP:

Studies: COVID vaccine protection waning against infection but not hospitalization

One study finds ebbing efficacy against infection in nursing homes, while 2 show sustained protection against hospitalizations.

www.cidrap.umn.edu

Medscape:

COVID Vaccine Effectiveness 'Waning Over Time'

Study suggests that vaccine effectiveness could continue to fall as winter approaches but some experts are not convinced by the analysis.

www.medscape.com

The Washington Compost:

https://www.washingtonpost.com/health/breakthrough-infections-covid-vaccine/2021/08/17/44ebcaaa-fea0-11eb-85f2-b871803f65e4_story.html

Rochellle Walensky and the CDC:


A nationwide study in Qatar, now ahead of Israel in vaccinations:

mRNA COVID-19 vaccine protection wanes after six months: a wide-scale study of the population of Qatar

In a paper recently uploaded to the preprint server medRxiv* by Chemaitelly et al. (August 27, 2021), the long-term effectiveness of the mRNA vaccines is analyzed amongst the Qatar population. The study observed waning protection against infection around six months post-vaccination but lasting...

www.news-medical.net

The Israel study...again:

Israeli study on viral load, Delta infections, vaccinations and boosters

Scientists from Israel have recently explored the effectiveness of two-dose and three-dose regimens of the BNT162b2 coronavirus disease 2019 (COVID-19) vaccine (Pfizer/BioNTech) to reduce viral load in breakthrough infections caused by the delta variant of severe acute respiratory syndrome...

www.news-medical.net

The Wall Street Journal:

Covid-19 Vaccine Efficacy: What Do the Numbers Really Mean?

Here is what we know about how well the major Covid-19 vaccines perform against the Delta variant, both in terms of preventing infection and preventing serious illness.

www.wsj.com

How much more do you need?

"Don't Stop, Believing...."

You suck at the link game, or you were in such a fury that you weren’t paying attention to what you were linking:

“Vaccines CONTINUE TO STRONGLY PROTECT AGAINST HOSPITALIZATION”

For someone who refused the vaccine, you sure as hell are adamant about their boosters. It’s just bizarre.

 

[Superman]

"So you're saying the vaccine is so effective that we don't need it any more and doses should be given to 3rd world countries?"

- Floggy the Dumb

that is exactly what he/she/they/them/ze said!!

 

[Steeltime]

“Vaccines CONTINUE TO STRONGLY PROTECT AGAINST HOSPITALIZATION”

Wait, I thought you said the vaccines protected us from GETTING the Chinese flu. So now the vaccines still wind up having us get the Chinese flu, but we just don't have to go to the hospital (as much)?

Is that what you're saying?

 

[Superman]

The AFP fact check on ivermectin use in Japan accidentally makes the case for why Joe Rogan was right to try it

"We can do other studies to confirm its efficacy, but we are in a crisis situation."

twitchy.com

 

[Troglodyte]

Wait, I thought you said the vaccines protected us from GETTING the Chinese flu. So now the vaccines still wind up having us get the Chinese flu, but we just don't have to go to the hospital (as much)?

Is that what you're saying?

Read through Tim’s link frenzy and you’ll find the answer.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Exactly, not wearing a seatbelt or driving drunk or shooting up heroin are idiotic, much like not getting vaccinated.

Yah, I figured your moronic *** would go there. That's where the compares stop. Those things I listed are FAR more dangerous than COVID.

99.97%​

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

If a person was in hospice or had major coronary disease, that is exactly what I was talking about. Covid was likely the final straw. The hospice people would have died anyway. The ones with coronary disease or chemotherapy patients might have lived years, you can’t dismiss those.

As far as car accidents, etc? Tens of thousands that coincidentally died of an acute event during the 10-14 days that they had Covid that had nothing to do with Covid? Think through the odds of that happening. So at least 20,000 people, 1 OUT OF EVERY 33 supposed Covid deaths, was actually due to some UNRELATED COINCIDENTAL acute event? No way.

You once again are just flat out wrong. I am talking people who died from disease other than Covid that in no way had anything to do with it and in fact were asymptomatic. And you vastly underestimate the numbers we are talking. I am not making this stuff up, The administration said it themselves. There were thousands upon thousands of cases of deaths where Covid was present by testing but played no part. Why do you want to inflate numbers against scientific principles? Politics?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

You suck at the link game

Please get a new schtick. I call you an ideologue, you call me the same. I tell you suck at linking (because you in fact actually do) and you say NOOOOoooooooo You Do. Child. Be original.

,or you were in such a fury that you weren’t paying attention to what you were linking:

“Vaccines CONTINUE TO STRONGLY PROTECT AGAINST HOSPITALIZATION”

I'm FULLY aware of what I linked. I have NOT argued that the vaccines don't help people from getting seriously ill. WE have been talking about waning vaccine effectiveness.

Vaccines have two main jobs: a) Prevent Spread and b) Prevent Serious Illness. The vaccines now SUCK at preventing spread. Drops in efficacy of up to 40%. There have likewise been drops in preventing serious illness, but those drops are smaller.

The result? The efficacy...of...the...vaccines...have....waned. That's why they need boosters dumbass.

For someone who refused the vaccine, you sure as hell are adamant about their boosters. It’s just bizarre.

Seriously, how did you make it to this age without Darwining yourself with your severe absence of intelligence? How did you not accidentally ingest bleach or step in front of a speeding bus because you were curious?

I am adamant about discussing the boosters because..... :drum roll: the need for boosters makes the point I've been trying to bang into your empty skull for weeks now -------- The Efficacy of the Vaccines Have Waned....and needing a booster means the original round of vaccines are no longer effective enough to help us turn back Covid.

And - repeating this for the 93rd time - as an unvaccinated, formerly infected person, I'm better protected than your soy latte ***. You're just vaccinated. Better go get a swab Flog.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

If a person was in hospice or had major coronary disease, that is exactly what I was talking about. Covid was likely the final straw.

Yep, bullshit. Nothing but 100% pure conjecture on your part. Really, nothing more. It supports your political position, so you make it. Without an autopsy or a clinical opinion of an attending physician, one doesn't know. You make the stupid *** assumption that COVID strikes everyone the same. It does not. While odds of risk are greater in the elderly, the utter vast majority of them live (9 to 9.5 out of 10). Many elderly get it and just have the sniffles. Or no symptoms. Or a mild bout of the flu.

An elderly person in the advanced stages of cancer, or with heart issues does not necessarily or likely die because they contract Covid.

Negligent thinking.

That's akin to saying Granny had diabetes, a failing heart, and alzheimers, then she got a splinter in her finger and that was the final straw.

The hospice people would have died anyway. The ones with coronary disease or chemotherapy patients might have lived years, you can’t dismiss those.

So they all should have been listed as Covid deaths??? Thanks for admitting the counting is all bullshit.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

The reasoning is the same.

The reasoning is the same????????

The reasons are vastly OPPOSITE. The WHO did not say Boosters are NOT needed because the current vaccines are working. They said they advise against rolling out boosters now because 3rd world countries should get their first rounds of vaccines. Their reasoning was in no way at all a reflection of, commentary of, opinion of the effectiveness of the vaccines. It was a cost benefit analysis - is our benefit greater getting round one of vaccines out to under vaccinated countries OR is it greater in providing boosters to those already vaccinated?

There is little current benefit to boosters. The vaccines are STILL highly effective against serious illness.

You simply are an ideologue. For the past 4 pages, you have been presented with scientific evidence, study after study, evidence, experts, and news sources that show boosters are needed because the current round of vaccines are running out of gas. Thus...Delta is tearing through the country.

Current 7 day Case Average: 150K cases a day.
June 7 day Case Average: 11,200 cases a day.
USA: 52% fully vaccinated

What a god damned advertisement for the effectiveness of the vaccines!! They work so well, look! In 2 months, cases only increased over 1200%!! Can you imagine how bad it would have been if over half our country wasn't vaccinated?!?! Get the Jab JFC!!

The far greater issue is the number of people not vaccinated whether it be foreign or domestic.

Yeah, wrong. That is a problem, but not the greater problem. The first round of vaccines that you and millions of others got don't prevent spread. Rising breakthrough cases that have gone from 1% to god knows what in just months. Rising #s of vaccinated hospitalized - 40% of ICU beds in some areas. The vaccines suck against Delta than the original version. The vaccines will suck worse against Lambda, here now. The vaccines won't touch Mu...also here now.

If everyone, 100% of us, had the jabby stab...it doesn't make those issues go away. Without boosters, they will essentially be useless against Lambda/Mu, Covid will skyrocket. It's still unclear on the "preventing serious illness" part if the original vaccines will have any or good effectiveness against these new variants.

So get your boosters!

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Read through Tim’s link frenzy and you’ll find the answer.

If you actually read through link frenzies and absorbed the data/knowledge posted just for you, this thread wouldn't be approaching Dri Archer levels.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

There were thousands upon thousands of cases of deaths where Covid was present by testing but played no part.

Yep. I don't know if they still are, but I believe every person who died last year in most or all regions was given a post-mortem Covid test. If Covid was detected, death certificate said "Covid death" - didn't matter if the deceased perished in a car accident, ladder accident, poisoning, murder, heart attack. Nope...Covid be da cause.

Why do you want to inflate numbers against scientific principles? Politics?

100%, pure, utter politics and religion.

 

[Troglodyte]

You once again are just flat out wrong. I am talking people who died from disease other than Covid that in no way had anything to do with it and in fact were asymptomatic. And you vastly underestimate the numbers we are talking. I am not making this stuff up, The administration said it themselves. There were thousands upon thousands of cases of deaths where Covid was present by testing but played no part. Why do you want to inflate numbers against scientific principles? Politics?

I’m not saying it absolutely never happened, I’m saying how many of those instances could there possibly have been, statistically? Think critically. Covid lasts 10-14 days of a person’s life. How many people are going to coincidentally die of something completely unrelated during that same 10-14 day period? What are the odds?

 

[Troglodyte]

Please get a new schtick. I call you an ideologue, you call me the same. I tell you suck at linking (because you in fact actually do) and you say NOOOOoooooooo You Do. Child. Be original.



I'm FULLY aware of what I linked. I have NOT argued that the vaccines don't help people from getting seriously ill. WE have been talking about waning vaccine effectiveness.

Vaccines have two main jobs: a) Prevent Spread and b) Prevent Serious Illness. The vaccines now SUCK at preventing spread. Drops in efficacy of up to 40%. There have likewise been drops in preventing serious illness, but those drops are smaller.

The result? The efficacy...of...the...vaccines...have....waned. That's why they need boosters dumbass.



Seriously, how did you make it to this age without Darwining yourself with your severe absence of intelligence? How did you not accidentally ingest bleach or step in front of a speeding bus because you were curious?

I am adamant about discussing the boosters because..... :drum roll: the need for boosters makes the point I've been trying to bang into your empty skull for weeks now -------- The Efficacy of the Vaccines Have Waned....and needing a booster means the original round of vaccines are no longer effective enough to help us turn back Covid.

And - repeating this for the 93rd time - as an unvaccinated, formerly infected person, I'm better protected than your soy latte ***. You're just vaccinated. Better go get a swab Flog.

You know what sucks much, much more at preventing the spread? NOT BEING VACCINATED AT ALL. If nobody was being hospitalized, we’d be shrugging off the spread. What happened to you “deaths are everything” argument?

And you’re ASSuming you’re protected. Just two nights ago I was talking to a woman who only recently got vaccinated after her Rheumatologist told her that her antibodies were gone.

 

[madinsomniac]

Re the methods for counting deaths, cases, ect…

the perfect method is not practical. This would be to test everyone every week to determine realistic numbers, and test all deceased and for every death where the virus was present, to perform an autopsy to determine cause of death…

the other options are
A. to only report known deaths and known cases which biases numbers really low
B. To estimate cases and deaths which typically bias numbers high
C. To report real time cases with reasonable suspicion as positives and investigate them the best they can

C is what they have gone with , which still biases it high because of the general standards the more populous states employed

there was no uniform standard guidelines given out… blame the Trump administration for not wanting to be tied to the coronavirus response in a way that could be used against them… but giving states carte blanche freedom to report anything they saw fit as a covid death let them inflate numbers with some questionable reporting standards..

i mean basically in August in this country there were 38 total deaths by flu… that was only people who died of influenza symptoms but also tested negative for coronavirus… in years past all of the people who died of symptoms but weren’t tested would be added there, now they go straight to covid 19… which biases it high

Moreover, while they made every effort to include every death, known or supposed, in the numbers, they never did the same for the cases… case numbers are always reported as positive tests only…

its reasonably assumed over half of the country has had covid now… even with the scary 600k plus inflated death numbers, the actual severity is rather low…

there is a real long equation that can be done after all of the actual data is crunched in a year or so that probably will be what you see in history books… the actual death count is probably one to two hundred thousand lower in the end.. its still pretty damn serious…

 

[SteelerInLebanon]

I’m not saying it absolutely never happened, I’m saying how many of those instances could there possibly have been, statistically? Think critically. Covid lasts 10-14 days of a person’s life. How many people are going to coincidentally die of something completely unrelated during that same 10-14 day period? What are the odds?

Much better than you would imagine.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

I’m not saying it absolutely never happened, I’m saying how many of those instances could there possibly have been, statistically? Think critically. Covid lasts 10-14 days of a person’s life. How many people are going to coincidentally die of something completely unrelated during that same 10-14 day period? What are the odds?

JFC!!!!!!! /Floggy

Do you ever, ever notice how often you flip flop?

- In July, you argued with me that COVID lasts longer than 10-14 days, that people have it for up to many weeks. Now you are here stating it's 10-14 days. WTF.
- On VAERS, you argued the vast majority of vax deaths were "pure coincidence" in timing (got the Jab, had a heart attack). Now you argue against similar coincidence.

John gets the jab, dies 3 days later due to heart inflammation. HypoFlog: "Pure coincidence! No causality!"
John gets Covid, dies in car wreck. HypoFlog: "Are you kidding me, coincidences like that don't happen!"

145K cases a day, and you argue that if some of those people die while infected with Covid, 100% of those people do be not die from any other causes. Only cause of death while infected with Covid must be....Covid.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

You know what sucks much, much more at preventing the spread? NOT BEING VACCINATED AT ALL.

Let's stay on point tool, we are discussing the EFFECTIVENESS of the vaccines.

We were told the vax would do be stop the spread. The vaccines are NOT preventing spread. Per Rochelle Walensky, per the CDC if you don't believe me and thousands of supporting pieces of data.

The vaccines are NOT as effective as we were told they would be. The vaccines have worsened in just 6 months in preventing spread, dropping upwards of 30-40 points.

"But but but they do something!!!" That isn't the argument. The vaccines' efficacies are waning.

If nobody was being hospitalized, we’d be shrugging off the spread. What happened to you “deaths are everything” argument?

Deaths are everything. What happened to your "cases lead to deaths?!" argument?

I didn't think we would get here with Delta. We are. That shed light on the real issue. All of this work to get the world vaccinated...ain't working very well. 150K cases a day right now, 52% vaccinated. As I said, what a tremendous advert for the vaccine strategy huh?

And you’re ASSuming you’re protected. Just two nights ago I was talking to a woman who only recently got vaccinated after her Rheumatologist told her that her antibodies were gone.

I know I am. I know that even without detectable antibodies I am. Because you ignore the Tcell and Bcell memory that really is more important than the antibodies, which tell your body how to properly attack Covid should you get it again.

Thanks for the anecdote, you talked to a woman. Whew what a source of powerful data. Did you happen to talk to the man next to this fictitious woman? He got vaccinated in January and his doctor told him to get a booster because his vax's powers had worn off.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Much better than you would imagine.

Yep. 145 cases per day on current load. 1 Million cases per week. 4 million cases per month. And HypoFlog do say not one of those people is likely to die in a car wreck, motorcycle accident, from drinking, from drinking/driving. Nope, no way.

 

[Superman]