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"Najee Harris ain't it". NAJEE 3.0 It's time to go, yo....

stillwright said:
Do you think Harris got top $$$$?
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I think he signed for a reasonable amount. When we declined the option, I was in favor of giving him a contract that I think is better than the one he ended up getting.

I never wanted to give him the option because of the guaranteed money and predicted we wouldn't. But I didn't think it would be a huge mistake if we did.

At the time, we only gave elite guys (Ben, Watt, Minkah) guarantees 2 years out. And with the "new" option rules that made them guaranteed, we've only optioned guys who've made 1st team all pro (Watt and Minkah). My guess is that we would also option a guy who genuinely made a probowl (not an injury replacement). Aside: I don't think we'll option Jones after this year either unless he makes the probowl.

Before the Stevenson contract was signed, I would have been OK with a 2 year extension at around the same value as the option. Provided the structure was good enough that it wasn't painful to walk away from. But the Stevenson contract (which looks like a big mistake on their part) made it so there was no way that Najee would take that deal.

In the end, the deal he signed was worse deal than that. Only 1 year. $5.25MM includes base and SB. With $4MM of incentives (which we have really only done for Mitch?).

I haven't seen anywhere where they provide any information on those incentives.

But both OTC and Spotrac have his cap number this year at $5.25MM. That might just be because the incentives are unknown.

But if they are known, that means that the entire $4MM is "unlikely to be earned". That means things he didn't do last year (snap count, attempts, rushing yards, receiving yards, playoff wins, TDs, etc).

If the incentives were things he did in the previous season, they'd be "likely to be earned". And that would mean that they would hit the cap this year.

Who knows how those things are distributed, but my guess is that he will end up making somewhere around the option value (which was ~$7MM). We'll see.
 
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speedicut said:
I'm much more of a reader than poster and have gotten a great deal of value from @warriors42 not only on this board but waaaay back to the Trib board.
I'm not sure why bigben wants to denigrate his contributions.
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I don't care if he's been here 20 years, just means he's old. Still doesn't have a pair to bet on a carry vs carry. Oh well
 
warriors42 said:
he wants a bet that if our new starting RB carries the ball 125 times and gains 4.0 per carry he wins. he does not understand how football actually works. Najee touched the ball a combined 381 times in his ROOKIE year and averaged 3.9 yards a carry, he doesn't seem to understand what happens to your endurance especially in your rookie year when you are pounded on that many plays.

This entire thread was about Najee's 3.9 ypc average now he has some freaking stupid stat he wants to bet on. I put what I was willing to bet on out there he can take it or leave it I don't much care, and if he had actually read my entire post I even gave him a way to save face and possibly win, but he has shown his true colors so whatever I'll bow out and he can thump his chest and claim victory.

Maybe he will learn from this a be a more humble poster but I doubt it.
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I am not going to bet on any RB getting more than 381 touches. Not gonna happen.
Only a Chicken Sh*t coward would come up with a volume bet like that to try to save face. No RB in the league has had 381 touches in the past 2 seasons.
 
warriors42 said:
he wants a bet that if our new starting RB carries the ball 125 times and gains 4.0 per carry he wins. he does not understand how football actually works. Najee touched the ball a combined 381 times in his ROOKIE year and averaged 3.9 yards a carry, he doesn't seem to understand what happens to your endurance especially in your rookie year when you are pounded on that many plays.

This entire thread was about Najee's 3.9 ypc average now he has some freaking stupid stat he wants to bet on. I put what I was willing to bet on out there he can take it or leave it I don't much care, and if he had actually read my entire post I even gave him a way to save face and possibly win, but he has shown his true colors so whatever I'll bow out and he can thump his chest and claim victory.

Maybe he will learn from this a be a more humble poster but I doubt it.
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I don't think the idea that his YPC was low because he got so many carries checks out. We can look at how other people did with 300+ carries. And we can compare Najee at 307 carries to 272, 255, and 263 carries (his YPC is remarkably consistent).

In his rookie year (2021), Najee had 307 rushing attempts with a YPC of 3.9.

Here are the guys who had > 300 attempts between now and then. Along with their ypc.

  • 2024: Barkley 5.8. Henry 5.9. Williams 4.1. Robinson 4.8. Taylor 4.7. Jacobs 4.4.
  • 2023: No one over 300 carries
  • 2022: Henry 4.4. Jacobs 4.9. Chubb 5.1
  • 2021: Taylor 5.5. Harris 3.9.
Also note that Najee has essentially the same YPC every year (he's remarkably consistent). His number of carries has ranged from 255 - 307. His YPC was slightly higher when he had 52 fewer carries, but the difference (4.1) isn't really appreciable (still lower than everyone on the list above except Williams who he tied with).

YPC isn't about the number of carries except in cases where a guy gets very few carries with a huge run. YPC is about "do you get big runs when your sample size is big enough". In Najee's case, the answer is no (zero 38+ yard runs in 1097 carries).
 
bigben said:
I am not going to bet on any RB getting more than 381 touches. Not gonna happen.
Only a Chicken Sh*t coward would come up with a volume bet like that to try to save face. No RB in the league has had 381 touches in the past 2 seasons.
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He offered you a fair bet. You didn't accept.
Once again what exact bet do you want?
 
BLITZ said:
He offered you a fair bet. You didn't accept.
Once again what exact bet do you want?
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It's alright brother just let it go. I offered him a carry for carry bet he just didn't like it. like I said this whole thread was about his 3.9 average. so I took the only 3.9 year and based it off that. carry for carry..

one thing about being here so long is I have learned to not let people like little ben get under my skin. he can twist **** any way he wants to if it makes him feel better.

There are very few people here that their opinion matters to me he isn't one.
 
warriors42 said:
It's alright brother just let it go. I offered him a carry for carry bet he just didn't like it. like I said this whole thread was about his 3.9 average. so I took the only 3.9 year and based it off that. carry for carry..

one thing about being here so long is I have learned to not let people like little ben get under my skin. he can twist **** any way he wants to if it makes him feel better.

There are very few people here that their opinion matters to me he isn't one.
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I get it. Have been here forever. Have seen many gentlebens come and go.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
I think he signed for a reasonable amount. When we declined the option, I was in favor of giving him a contract that I think is better than the one he ended up getting.

I never wanted to give him the option because of the guaranteed money and predicted we wouldn't. But I didn't think it would be a huge mistake if we did.

At the time, we only gave elite guys (Ben, Watt, Minkah) guarantees 2 years out. And with the "new" option rules that made them guaranteed, we've only optioned guys who've made 1st team all pro (Watt and Minkah). My guess is that we would also option a guy who genuinely made a probowl (not an injury replacement). Aside: I don't think we'll option Jones after this year either unless he makes the probowl.

Before the Stevenson contract was signed, I would have been OK with a 2 year extension at around the same value as the option. Provided the structure was good enough that it wasn't painful to walk away from. But the Stevenson contract (which looks like a big mistake on their part) made it so there was no way that Najee would take that deal.

In the end, the deal he signed was worse deal than that. Only 1 year. $5.25MM includes base and SB. With $4MM of incentives (which we have really only done for Mitch?).

I haven't seen anywhere where they provide any information on those incentives.

But both OTC and Spotrac have his cap number this year at $5.25MM. That might just be because the incentives are unknown.

But if they are known, that means that the entire $4MM is "unlikely to be earned". That means things he didn't do last year (snap count, attempts, rushing yards, receiving yards, playoff wins, TDs, etc).

If the incentives were things he did in the previous season, they'd be "likely to be earned". And that would mean that they would hit the cap this year.

Who knows how those things are distributed, but my guess is that he will end up making somewhere around the option value (which was ~$7MM). We'll see.
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His 5th year option was for something like $6.7 mill. Not bad for a guy that never missed a game(playing hurt at times). Had 4 straight 1000 yard seasons......all while playing in a horrible schematicly schemed offense.
 
bigben said:
I am not going to bet on any RB getting more than 381 touches. Not gonna happen.
Only a Chicken Sh*t coward would come up with a volume bet like that to try to save face. No RB in the league has had 381 touches in the past 2 seasons.
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Simmer down. The guy gave you a bet proposal no need to start slinging insults.
 
stillwright said:
His 5th year option was for something like $6.7 mill. Not bad for a guy that never missed a game(playing hurt at times). Had 4 straight 1000 yard seasons......all while playing in a horrible schematicly schemed offense.
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I think you are correct that 4 straight 1000 yards within those constraints is indeed “not bad”
The expectations for first round RBs (fair or not) is generally higher than “not bad” though…constraints or not.

Heck we have a HC that’s NHALS (not sure if you’ve heard that stat before) which is also “not bad”

This gets down to what I see as one of the fundamental issues with the Art Nutting Steelers. The standard has become “not bad” is good enough.

I see the departure of Najee as maybe one of the tiniest of baby steps to maybe just maybe shifting away from “not bad” as the standard to maybe something slightly better like “almost good” paving a path towards something better yet like “great”. I know it’s just a fan dream on this Groundhog’s Day eve, but a kid can dream, right?

I wish Najee the best moving forward as he is no longer being held a hostage to the “not bad” culture Art Nutting has been all too content with.

And more importantly I wish the Steelers a RB who is better than “not bad” maybe someone who is explosive, dominant, a game wrecker a game changer (like Najee was once or twice a year) you know a truly great RB would be refreshing.
 
Amazing what happens to some of these players, once Tomlinized…………………………

Jones is at that intersection, Najee has passed through and will be judged on if he took the right turn or not.



Salute the nation
 
Drink IRON City said:
Amazing what happens to some of these players, once Tomlinized…………………………

Jones is at that intersection, Najee has passed through and will be judged on if he took the right turn or not.



Salute the nation
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Interesting take on Jones based on last year's draft. Every tackle taken in the first-round last year switched sides for their rookie year according to Williamson and Lolley. That sort of defeats the narrative of it being a Tomlin thing.
 
SteelerInLebanon said:
Interesting take on Jones based on last year's draft. Every tackle taken in the first-round last year switched sides for their rookie year according to Williamson and Lolley. That sort of defeats the narrative of it being a Tomlin thing.
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The "Tomlin thing" of that situation was playing Moore at LT when everyone could see how bad he was, while we had a better LT prospect that was drafted specifically for that reason, a prospect we traded UP to get. You don't trade up up top 10 in the draft, grab a LT and then force him to play RT, while a 4th round player that has struggled to improve takes that role.

The reasoning was always, "Moore can't play RT"
 
Fiji Mariner said:
I think you are correct that 4 straight 1000 yards within those constraints is indeed “not bad”
The expectations for first round RBs (fair or not) is generally higher than “not bad” though…constraints or not.

Heck we have a HC that’s NHALS (not sure if you’ve heard that stat before) which is also “not bad”

This gets down to what I see as one of the fundamental issues with the Art Nutting Steelers. The standard has become “not bad” is good enough.

I see the departure of Najee as maybe one of the tiniest of baby steps to maybe just maybe shifting away from “not bad” as the standard to maybe something slightly better like “almost good” paving a path towards something better yet like “great”. I know it’s just a fan dream on this Groundhog’s Day eve, but a kid can dream, right?

I wish Najee the best moving forward as he is no longer being held a hostage to the “not bad” culture Art Nutting has been all too content with.

And more importantly I wish the Steelers a RB who is better than “not bad” maybe someone who is explosive, dominant, a game wrecker a game changer (like Najee was once or twice a year) you know a truly great RB would be refreshing.
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So what would have been acceptable numbers for Harris?
 
insaniti said:
The "Tomlin thing" of that situation was playing Moore at LT when everyone could see how bad he was, while we had a better LT prospect that was drafted specifically for that reason, a prospect we traded UP to get. You don't trade up up top 10 in the draft, grab a LT and then force him to play RT, while a 4th round player that has struggled to improve takes that role.

The reasoning was always, "Moore can't play RT"
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First off Moore is far better than many give him credit for. That is why we will get a third comp pick for him. Second, if it were not for an injury Jones would have been the LT last year.
 
SteelerInLebanon said:
Interesting take on Jones based on last year's draft. Every tackle taken in the first-round last year switched sides for their rookie year according to Williamson and Lolley. That sort of defeats the narrative of it being a Tomlin thing.
Click to expand...



It comes down to your definition of “Tomlinization”. Clearly there was a mistake made from day one of the Jones pick.


Salute the nation
 
stillwright said:
His 5th year option was for something like $6.7 mill. Not bad for a guy that never missed a game(playing hurt at times). Had 4 straight 1000 yard seasons......all while playing in a horrible schematicly schemed offense.
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I wasn't here at the time, but on the board I was posting on I said that I thought it was kind of a "meh" decision either way. I'd have called it a small mistake to give him the option. Like you say, the value isn't all that high because of RB devaluation (relative to cap). It will be a much bigger payout we're thinking about with Jones at the end of this season.

I think the market agreed with me. Got a 1 year deal with a final value that will be either just above or just below the option value. "Meh".

The Steelers seem to really hate guaranteeing money more than one year out (options are exercised at the end of year 3 and guarantee the option value in year 5).

We haven't exercised the option on anyone who wasn't a 1st team all pro since the rule change to make the money guaranteed. Before that, we'd option everyone because there was no downside for the team.

That's what happened with Bud. Hadn't shown much by the end of year 3. But because you could cut a guy at the end of year 4 and not pay the option, we exercised it. And he panned out.

It will be interesting to see next time we have a rookie that makes a probowl (not injury replacement like Najee was in year 1...doesn't count re: option tiers) in the first 3 years (sad that it hasn't happened to someone we drafted since TJ). My guess is that we exercise the option on that player. But we haven't had that situation yet.
 
SteelerInLebanon said:
Interesting take on Jones based on last year's draft. Every tackle taken in the first-round last year switched sides for their rookie year according to Williamson and Lolley. That sort of defeats the narrative of it being a Tomlin thing.
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It happens all the time with OL.

Because the best guys in college play T. Often LT.

But the majority of them won't be LTs in the NFL (if they play). Many switch sides or move inside.

And Jones didn't play very much in college to begin with. He has far more high level (NFL + NCAA) experience at RT now than LT.

Seems like a lot of communication / focus issues. Doesn't know snap count. Thinks it's a run when it's a pass. Pulls left when the run goes to the right. Not sure how much being on the left side of the like will help with these issues. But I really hope he works out.

We knew he was raw when we drafted him.
 
SteelerInLebanon said:
First off Moore is far better than many give him credit for. That is why we will get a third comp pick for him. Second, if it were not for an injury Jones would have been the LT last year.
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FWIW, I think Jones would have been the swing tackle last year if not for the injury.

He was by far the worst of the top 3 OTs in camp last year. Hopefully a lot of that was his injury. Because we need him to be competent this season.
 
stillwright said:
So what would have been acceptable numbers for Harris?
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Depends, in reference to what?

For the "not bad" culture Steelers those numbers were acceptable for 4 whole years,
heck those numbers still may be acceptable for the next 3 years and he simply chose to not negotiate further with the train wreck Steelers?

For a first round RB prospect I'd say above 4 ypc or even above say 4.25 would be a fair ask.
For a first round RB (or any RB) wanting top RB $$$ on a 2nd contract a minimum of 4.25 ypc hopefully closer to 4.5.

Heck, even if he'd flash the potential he'd show twice a year more frequently than twice a year it's a whole other story. But alas he'd show that potential you'd like to see very infrequently and the drop off from him to his replacement would usually seem minimal at best (if the replacement wasn't looking more explosive). He made himself a very expandable and very replaceable player...thus his departure.

again he wasn't bad, as you stated he was very much so "not bad", but he also was rarely special and forcing such a high volume of offense through a player who is simply "not bad" and has his best ability of availability is flawed strategy towards putting up legit points. Najee was a huge contributor to the high teens- low 20 average points scoring Steeler offense. Hopefully in his absence a more explosive talent will push the offense closer to the 25 a game range. That is a large "hopefully" given the new starter will still be dealing with many of the same constraints.

Again not hating on Najee cuz he had the obvious constraints, but I'm also not going to sit around and lament letting a "not bad" player hit the bricks. Had he flashed the potential he showed more frequently maybe it is a whole different story...but he spent way too many plays and games being hesitant, lacking vision, lacking power, lacking explosion for a guy who showed he had that potential in him. Maybe along with his availability he didn't have the ability to bring his A game every week and frequently could only pack his C game??? That would explain a lot.
 
Fiji Mariner said:
Depends, in reference to what?

For the "not bad" culture Steelers those numbers were acceptable for 4 whole years,
heck those numbers still may be acceptable for the next 3 years and he simply chose to not negotiate further with the train wreck Steelers?

For a first round RB prospect I'd say above 4 ypc or even above say 4.25 would be a fair ask.
For a first round RB (or any RB) wanting top RB $$$ on a 2nd contract a minimum of 4.25 ypc hopefully closer to 4.5.

Heck, even if he'd flash the potential he'd show twice a year more frequently than twice a year it's a whole other story. But alas he'd show that potential you'd like to see very infrequently and the drop off from him to his replacement would usually seem minimal at best (if the replacement wasn't looking more explosive). He made himself a very expandable and very replaceable player...thus his departure.

again he wasn't bad, as you stated he was very much so "not bad", but he also was rarely special and forcing such a high volume of offense through a player who is simply "not bad" and has his best ability of availability is flawed strategy towards putting up legit points. Najee was a huge contributor to the high teens- low 20 average points scoring Steeler offense. Hopefully in his absence a more explosive talent will push the offense closer to the 25 a game range. That is a large "hopefully" given the new starter will still be dealing with many of the same constraints.

Again not hating on Najee cuz he had the obvious constraints, but I'm also not going to sit around and lament letting a "not bad" player hit the bricks. Had he flashed the potential he showed more frequently maybe it is a whole different story...but he spent way too many plays and games being hesitant, lacking vision, lacking power, lacking explosion for a guy who showed he had that potential in him. Maybe along with his availability he didn't have the ability to bring his A game every week and frequently could only pack his C game??? That would explain a lot.
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I seen the guy work at Latrobe he put the work in. Just not overly explosive and not a great fit for an offense that needed exactly that an explosive back.

He would be a fine number 2. I even like him as a third down back or an end of the game control the clock type of back when you are up significantly.

I like the guy just like the Steelers I think we need an upgrade.
 
Fiji Mariner said:
Depends, in reference to what?

For the "not bad" culture Steelers those numbers were acceptable for 4 whole years,
heck those numbers still may be acceptable for the next 3 years and he simply chose to not negotiate further with the train wreck Steelers?

For a first round RB prospect I'd say above 4 ypc or even above say 4.25 would be a fair ask.
For a first round RB (or any RB) wanting top RB $$$ on a 2nd contract a minimum of 4.25 ypc hopefully closer to 4.5.

Heck, even if he'd flash the potential he'd show twice a year more frequently than twice a year it's a whole other story. But alas he'd show that potential you'd like to see very infrequently and the drop off from him to his replacement would usually seem minimal at best (if the replacement wasn't looking more explosive). He made himself a very expandable and very replaceable player...thus his departure.

again he wasn't bad, as you stated he was very much so "not bad", but he also was rarely special and forcing such a high volume of offense through a player who is simply "not bad" and has his best ability of availability is flawed strategy towards putting up legit points. Najee was a huge contributor to the high teens- low 20 average points scoring Steeler offense. Hopefully in his absence a more explosive talent will push the offense closer to the 25 a game range. That is a large "hopefully" given the new starter will still be dealing with many of the same constraints.

Again not hating on Najee cuz he had the obvious constraints, but I'm also not going to sit around and lament letting a "not bad" player hit the bricks. Had he flashed the potential he showed more frequently maybe it is a whole different story...but he spent way too many plays and games being hesitant, lacking vision, lacking power, lacking explosion for a guy who showed he had that potential in him. Maybe along with his availability he didn't have the ability to bring his A game every week and frequently could only pack his C game??? That would explain a lot.
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Cost wise Harris might have been the way to go. His base salary is $5.2 mill. Warren's is $5.3 mill. We also signed Eagles backup RB....he got $1.8 mill from us. Patterson is still here at the moment for I believe for $1 mill. We will be drafting someone most likely. Will Warren even be the feature back? Guess we will see soon enough.
 
NorthernBlitz said:
The Steelers seem to really hate guaranteeing money more than one year out (options are exercised at the end of year 3 and guarantee the option value in year 5).
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Unless, of course, your name is Mike Tomlin. No problems guaranteeing another $48 mill there.
 
insaniti said:
The "Tomlin thing" of that situation was playing Moore at LT when everyone could see how bad he was, while we had a better LT prospect that was drafted specifically for that reason, a prospect we traded UP to get. You don't trade up up top 10 in the draft, grab a LT and then force him to play RT, while a 4th round player that has struggled to improve takes that role.

The reasoning was always, "Moore can't play RT"
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That my friends,……… is the definition of “TOMLINIZATION”

A term used in generality that defines some of the unreal moves this team, HC makes.



Salute the nation
 
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