All religion is based on man's doctrines...

[Vis]

The first step for those who want to strip people of individual rights, has historically been to try and abolish religion, and with it the idea that individual humans have inherent value beyond being human livestock in service of the government.

Human dictators outlawing religion isn't what I want. I want people to think. I want a return of the enlightenment. I want people to look at the scriptures and see the horrors of books that support slavery and the murder of girls for not being virgins and the taking of the virgins of the other tribe as sex slaves and the wholesale slaughter of the men and male children all commanded by the god. Morality didn't come from that book. People skip over those parts or down play them (as I expect someone will do in response to this post) because our modern morality is better than that and we impose it on religion.

 

[Vis]

If I can't discuss religion with non-believers, it shows a lack of faith I think.

An insistence on "everything I believe is right and I am not open to questioning it" doesn't sit right with me. Many people take a very black and white view of this subject and there is plenty of gray.

I don't like or agree with lots of things that have occurred inside the Catholic church, and I don't necessarily believe it or anything else is the One True Religion...it's closest to what I believe. It's helped give me and my husband and children a structured means of doing good, and helped impart a strong moral compass. My parish is a community that does a lot of good for a lot of people, that is committed to loving and caring for others...even those some might consider "sinners'...homeless drug addicts, AIDS patients, unwed mothers and abortion survivors. We run a free breakfast and preschool program for poor immigrant children and their parents. We collect food and other items for food cupboards and shelters. We collect and deliver thousands of Christmas gifts and winter coats for poor children.

Maybe some really want to try and convince me that's a bad thing...that what I and many others are doing is a serious danger to their existence. Good luck with that.

The good things done in the name of religion can be done without the religion. They have their own motivation. If you and those people you speak of lost belief in God you would still have your hearts. you wouldn't abandon kindness and become killers. But I want you to consider that the bad things done in the name of religion require religion. It's the belief that makes the bad things seem good to the believer. What God commands is intrinsically good be that throwing acid in a little girls face for learning to read or denying condoms in an AIDS ravaged African village when they would save lives. Sure power, money etc..motivates people to be cruel but so does religion. There are exceptions, Jainism for one. And Islam is the most dangerous at present. but all start with a denial of evidence based decision making.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

If this is sarcasm, forgive me...

If this is for real, it's one of the greatest posts in the history of the internets.

Real. Thanks.

 

[jitter77]

The problem i have with religion is people are blind to certain things. The church i used to goto with my ex made me extremely uncomfortable. It was an orthodox church and they basically told you what to believe and think. I got into a heated discussion one day because they basically said science (evolution) is the work of the devil.
I had a priest for a teacher at St. Vincent and he was amazing. He was big on preaching the the bible is meant to teach, but not everything is to be taken literally. He was also big on questioning things and debating them not just mindlessly believing whatever. I could not believe some of the stuff he said for a Catholic priest.. . I feel that religion allows ignorant weaker minded people to be brainwashed and pretty soon they are incapable of thinking for themselves and will do whatever their leader tells them.

 

[Stillers]

Real. Thanks.

Just so I am clear, a devout christian as yourself feels that any questions non-believers have about the existence of god...should be silenced immediately and the questioners should be damned to hell for eternity.
Is this correct?

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Just so I am clear, a devout christian as yourself feels that any questions non-believers have about the existence of god...should be silenced immediately and the questioners should be damned to hell for eternity.
Is this correct?

Absolutely.

 

[oneforthebus]

The good things done in the name of religion can be done without the religion. They have their own motivation. If you and those people you speak of lost belief in God you would still have your hearts. you wouldn't abandon kindness and become killers. But I want you to consider that the bad things done in the name of religion require religion. It's the belief that makes the bad things seem good to the believer. What God commands is intrinsically good be that throwing acid in a little girls face for learning to read or denying condoms in an AIDS ravaged African village when they would save lives. Sure power, money etc..motivates people to be cruel but so does religion. There are exceptions, Jainism for one. And Islam is the most dangerous at present. but all start with a denial of evidence based decision making.

Human rights throughout history have often been derived from the belief that human beings have a soul, a spirit, whatever you want to call it, an inner self with value and purpose beyond just a body and a brain. I think it's naive to think the world would b a better place without that belief. Yes, religion can be twisted and misused by evil people as can any ideology.

Yes, we would still have our hearts but would we all be as inspired to emulate the love of Jesus Christ for humanity or to gather as we do in his name. Maybe, maybe not. The vast majority of the world's charities have some religious affiliation. I don't think if you made religion go poof it would easily be replaced.

 

[oneforthebus]

Human dictators outlawing religion isn't what I want. I want people to think. I want a return of the enlightenment. I want people to look at the scriptures and see the horrors of books that support slavery and the murder of girls for not being virgins and the taking of the virgins of the other tribe as sex slaves and the wholesale slaughter of the men and male children all commanded by the god. Morality didn't come from that book. People skip over those parts or down play them (as I expect someone will do in response to this post) because our modern morality is better than that and we impose it on religion.

It's not just religious books that supported those things throughout history. Do you want me to get into the list of atrocities committed in the name of religious persecution or communism again?

Obviously all of our culture has changed, not just religious beliefs. Your argument is no different than someone who says Democrats once supported racial discrimination, therefore they are still all evil racists. Of course (most) religions and their interpretation of laws and texts has evolved just like everything else on the planet.

 

[Vis]

It's not just religious books that supported those things throughout history. Do you want me to get into the list of atrocities committed in the name of religious persecution or communism again?

Obviously all of our culture has changed, not just religious beliefs. Your argument is no different than someone who says Democrats once supported racial discrimination, therefore they are still all evil racists. Of course (most) religions and their interpretation of laws and texts has evolved just like everything else on the planet.

It's not just religious books that supported it but the religious books are supposed to be the words of God so unless you think the books aren't the words of God or you think God somehow changed because he's not beyond time constraints, you're stuck with the books. Democrats do ****** things all the time. I''m happy to equate them with the ****** things God did in the Bible if you are. If you take your argument that the interpretation evolved which is the argument I make too, then you agree that the book isn't the source of that evolved morality, rather the evolved morality is the reason for the reinterpretation.

You might like this:

http://www.nytimes.com/2008/01/13/magazine/13Psychology-t.html?pagewanted=all&_r=0

 

[Sluzilla]

Why do heathens feel so compelled to comment on religion? Shut the **** up and go to hell.

you realize you're a heathen too...when it comes to the true religion of some...

but anyways...one would thing in a forum 50% directly dedicated to the discussion of religion...comments about religion would be expected...so the question really is this...


why would someone be so ignorant as to make the comment you just made?...



although the "STFU and GTH" comment is pretty funny...

 

[Sluzilla]

lol ayep. 'bout sums it up

hush now...the adults are trying to talk...

 

[Sluzilla]

Because people believing in "a man in the sky" perturbs the **** out of them. They cant stand it.

Also, they feel threatened because there can't be no higher power than government...or Obama.

two posts from you so far in this thread and you can easily be discarded from further discussion...try to think a little and post something that supports your beliefs...

 

[Sluzilla]

I don't get the inconsistency... those that want to believe in a higher power doesn't affect their life...the same liberal ***** that will tell you gay marriage doesn't affect your life.

Well, I do get the inconsistency...they're liberals.

and your third post follows suit once again...

hates Islam
hates Obama
hates Gays
hates Liberals

you are pretty easily defined in life...

btw...inconsistency = being a Christian full of hate...

 

[Sluzilla]

Inspired by what?

inspired by the mother/child innate reactions...

(and thank you for your civility during the discussion)

 

[Omar10213245]

We get it, Slu. You're too clever to be suckered into believing in God. May we all be as cunning someday

 

[Sluzilla]

If I can't discuss religion with non-believers, it shows a lack of faith I think.

An insistence on "everything I believe is right and I am not open to questioning it" doesn't sit right with me. Many people take a very black and white view of this subject and there is plenty of gray.

I don't like or agree with lots of things that have occurred inside the Catholic church, and I don't necessarily believe it or anything else is the One True Religion...it's closest to what I believe. It's helped give me and my husband and children a structured means of doing good, and helped impart a strong moral compass. My parish is a community that does a lot of good for a lot of people, that is committed to loving and caring for others...even those some might consider "sinners'...homeless drug addicts, AIDS patients, unwed mothers and abortion survivors. We run a free breakfast and preschool program for poor immigrant children and their parents. We collect food and other items for food cupboards and shelters. We collect and deliver thousands of Christmas gifts and winter coats for poor children.

Maybe some really want to try and convince me that's a bad thing...that what I and many others are doing is a serious danger to their existence. Good luck with that.

through actual discussion on this board i've learned so much...a few times i've had my beliefs challenged to the point that i actually had to research and educate myself further...i'll never belittle anyone for their beliefs...because who's to say one day they may not be mine...ha!...

i love this post though...

i'm not trying to change your mind on your beliefs...i'm posting what i believe at this moment in time...and have opened myself up to debate...i enjoy a good logical discussion...

 

[Sluzilla]

It's not just religious books that supported those things throughout history. Do you want me to get into the list of atrocities committed in the name of religious persecution or communism again?

i may be wrong on this...but hasn't most religious persecution been in the name of another religion?...

 

[Sluzilla]

We get it, Slu. You're too clever to be suckered into believing in God. May we all be as cunning someday

hush now child...

 

[Rod Farva]

I think it's because people who are willing to suspend rational thought and follow a sky dictator are dangerous and can be made to commit atrocities.

People generally are dangerous and can be made to commit atrocities.

If I can't discuss religion with non-believers, it shows a lack of faith I think.

An insistence on "everything I believe is right and I am not open to questioning it" doesn't sit right with me. Many people take a very black and white view of this subject and there is plenty of gray.

I don't like or agree with lots of things that have occurred inside the Catholic church, and I don't necessarily believe it or anything else is the One True Religion...it's closest to what I believe. It's helped give me and my husband and children a structured means of doing good, and helped impart a strong moral compass. My parish is a community that does a lot of good for a lot of people, that is committed to loving and caring for others...even those some might consider "sinners'...homeless drug addicts, AIDS patients, unwed mothers and abortion survivors. We run a free breakfast and preschool program for poor immigrant children and their parents. We collect food and other items for food cupboards and shelters. We collect and deliver thousands of Christmas gifts and winter coats for poor children.

Maybe some really want to try and convince me that's a bad thing...that what I and many others are doing is a serious danger to their existence. Good luck with that.

The government can do all that. Probably better.

Human dictators outlawing religion isn't what I want. I want people to think. I want a return of the enlightenment. I want people to look at the scriptures and see the horrors of books that support slavery and the murder of girls for not being virgins and the taking of the virgins of the other tribe as sex slaves and the wholesale slaughter of the men and male children all commanded by the god. Morality didn't come from that book. People skip over those parts or down play them (as I expect someone will do in response to this post) because our modern morality is better than that and we impose it on religion.

The book of Vis. Which conveniently skips over the parts of the Bible that command love for your enemies and turning the other cheek. Do you really believe that there are no "thinkers" or practitioners of Christianity that possess the equal of your intellect, which is evidently only overshadowed by your ego? It seems to be what you're saying and the extended version of that train of thought would almost necessarily lead to that which you claim to not want in your first sentence.

I have great respect for critical thinking but conflating those who profess Christianity with an inherent lack of it displays a rather lazy thought process, imo.

 

[Rod Farva]

I think it's because people who are willing to suspend rational thought and follow a sky dictator are dangerous and can be made to commit atrocities.

People generally are dangerous and can be made to commit atrocities.

If I can't discuss religion with non-believers, it shows a lack of faith I think.

An insistence on "everything I believe is right and I am not open to questioning it" doesn't sit right with me. Many people take a very black and white view of this subject and there is plenty of gray.

I don't like or agree with lots of things that have occurred inside the Catholic church, and I don't necessarily believe it or anything else is the One True Religion...it's closest to what I believe. It's helped give me and my husband and children a structured means of doing good, and helped impart a strong moral compass. My parish is a community that does a lot of good for a lot of people, that is committed to loving and caring for others...even those some might consider "sinners'...homeless drug addicts, AIDS patients, unwed mothers and abortion survivors. We run a free breakfast and preschool program for poor immigrant children and their parents. We collect food and other items for food cupboards and shelters. We collect and deliver thousands of Christmas gifts and winter coats for poor children.

Maybe some really want to try and convince me that's a bad thing...that what I and many others are doing is a serious danger to their existence. Good luck with that.

The government can do all that. Probably better.

Human dictators outlawing religion isn't what I want. I want people to think. I want a return of the enlightenment. I want people to look at the scriptures and see the horrors of books that support slavery and the murder of girls for not being virgins and the taking of the virgins of the other tribe as sex slaves and the wholesale slaughter of the men and male children all commanded by the god. Morality didn't come from that book. People skip over those parts or down play them (as I expect someone will do in response to this post) because our modern morality is better than that and we impose it on religion.

The book of Vis. Which conveniently skips over the parts of the Bible that command love for your enemies and turning the other cheek. Do you really believe that there are no "thinkers" or practitioners of Christianity that possess the equal of your intellect, which is evidently only overshadowed by your ego? It seems to be what you're saying and the extended version of that train of thought would almost necessarily lead to that which you claim to not want in your first sentence.

I have great respect for critical thinking but conflating those who profess Christianity with an inherent lack of it displays a rather lazy thought process, imo.

 

[Vis]

People generally are dangerous and can be made to commit atrocities.



The government can do all that. Probably better.



The book of Vis. Which conveniently skips over the parts of the Bible that command love for your enemies and turning the other cheek. Do you really believe that there are no "thinkers" or practitioners of Christianity that possess the equal of your intellect, which is evidently only overshadowed by your ego? It seems to be what you're saying and the extended version of that train of thought would almost necessarily lead to that which you claim to not want in your first sentence.

I have great respect for critical thinking but conflating those who profess Christianity with an inherent lack of it displays a rather lazy thought process, imo.

Francis Collins is smart and a believer. But the problems in this country are the believers who use religion as an excuse to treat others poorly, deny science, young earthers and those who deny evolution. If that's you don't even say the words "critical thinking". If that's not you then we can move on to historical inaccuracies in the Bible and how you deal with those.

 

[suncitysteel]

I feel that government allows ignorant weaker minded people to be brainwashed and pretty soon they are incapable of thinking for themselves and will do whatever their leader tells them.

Fixed it for 'ya.

 

[Rod Farva]

Francis Collins is smart and a believer. But the problems in this country are the believers who use religion as an excuse to treat others poorly, deny science, young earthers and those who deny evolution. If that's you don't even say the words "critical thinking". If that's not you then we can move on to historical inaccuracies in the Bible and how you deal with those.

Please don't deign to advise me on what I may or may not "say." And no, I am not even close to being a biblical expert or historian so I won't "move on" with that debate. We've been down that road over our many years here. Neither of us will ever convince the other that he is wrong. My point was more about your propensity to dwell on the parts of the Bible that suit your argument while leaving the rest out.

 

[Vis]

Please don't deign to advise me on what I may or may not "say." And no, I am not even close to being a biblical expert or historian so I won't "move on" with that debate. We've been down that road over our many years here. Neither of us will ever convince the other that he is wrong. My point was more about your propensity to dwell on the parts of the Bible that suit your argument while leaving the rest out.

My argument is that it's a flawed book written by bronze age men. My point on critical thinking is that you can't claim to do that and believe in the literal truth of everything in the bible. But my real issues with religion are the bad ideas that hurt people when they are followed.

 

[Stewey]

. But my real issues with religion are the bad ideas that hurt people when they are followed.

Go on, go on.