Bernie Sanders - Make America Socialist!

[Troglodyte]

Allow health insurance companies to provide a wide array of products (basic major medical, add-on maternity care/psych care/dental etc for those who want it, let those who don't opt out) at an array of prices so we truly have competition.
Require insurance companies to have co-pays that are a percentage of each covered service, up to a limit...put consumers back into pricing decisions. Force providers and drug companies to compete on price, incentivize consumers not to use services they don't really need. Pre-tax health savings accounts to pay for them.

Don't all of these already exists in the forms of different plans, co-pays and deductibles?

My health insurance has $300 deductible and then 90/10 split after that. Co-pays and deductibles are the mechanisms that incentivize consumers not to use services they don't really need.

 

[ark steel]

Yeah!! Just like those Wall St. Guys we gave almost a trillion dollars . Come down on them just like we did those guys who damn near sent the country into a depression. Or better yet... let's do nothing to them but throw the guy that beats the gov't. out of $150 bucks in food stamps a month in prison.

You act like they weren't prosecuted just because they are rich. The real reason is that a full investigation would have shown the Congress and past Presidents were just as, if not more, culpable in the downfall.

In addition, many of us right wing bible thumping neo-cons were against those bailouts.

 

[oneforthebus]

Yeah!! Just like those Wall St. Guys we gave almost a trillion dollars . Come down on them just like we did those guys who damn near sent the country into a depression. Or better yet... let's do nothing to them but throw the guy that beats the gov't. out of $150 bucks in food stamps a month in prison.

The roots of the financial crisis can be found in a federal government push to hand out mortgages to low income people who didn't qualify for mortgages. It gets a whole lot more complicated but that's where it started. And you do know that the banks repaid most of the bailout money, right (the big banks have paid back all of it)? They weren't "given" any of it.

 

[oneforthebus]

Don't all of these already exists in the forms of different plans, co-pays and deductibles?

My health insurance has $300 deductible and then 90/10 split after that. Co-pays and deductibles are the mechanisms that incentivize consumers not to use services they don't really need.

Under Obamacare all preventative services must be provided with no copay or coinsurance.

All plans must cover things like birth control, maternity, psychiatric care, even chiropractic care believe it or not. The only real "choice" is whether you want a lower premium and sky-high deductible or a sky-high premium and lower deductible. Clearly if you have a $300 deductible you most likely have an employer provided plan.

My husband recently became self-employed (not by choice). My family is all up to date on shots, healthy, no ongoing medical conditions. I no longer need birth control or maternity services. All we really need is a basic major medical plan that covers us in case of catastrophic illness. But we are forced to purchase a full ride plan that covers everything. The cheapest available plan for my family of 5 is 1000.00/month, and has a $12,000 deductible. Most likely we will use about 1000.00 total this year on physical exams, mammograms, flu shots etc. but we aren't allowed to choose to just self-pay our own medical expenses and carry a catastrophic plan. This is wiping out our savings. We have two kids going to college in two years.

We received some severance, half of which went right to the government. We joke that if my husband just stopped taking on these consulting projects we might almost be better off. Collect unemployment, free health insurance, maybe our kids go to college almost for free. Yeah, we'd have to sell our house and rent but still...at our income level we're not quite there, but I can see where some people might make that decision at some point. We're being punished for trying to work hard and earn a decent living. The emergency fund we've saved is going to the insurance company, it's not going to help us pay our bills.

Anyhoo, I'm looking for a job right now, any job that provides health insurance. I've been applying for jobs with our county government. The pay's not great but they offer health insurance, dental, vision, 12 vacation days, 14 paid holidays, 12 sick days (all of which accrue year to year and get paid out if you leave), and a pension, all for a fairly unskilled, "full time" job that is 35 hours/week. Our tax dollars at work. If you can't beat em join em.

I'm not looking for sympathy mind you, we are a lot better off than a lot of unemployed people. I just believe that we should have a lot more say in this matter of what kind of health insurance we have to have at varying stages of our life, and where to prioritize spending our own money when we need it most.

 

[SteelChip]

The roots of the financial crisis can be found in a federal government push to hand out mortgages to low income people who didn't qualify for mortgages. It gets a whole lot more complicated but that's where it started. And you do know that the banks repaid most of the bailout money, right (the big banks have paid back all of it)? They weren't "given" any of it.

Correct you are but somehow our beloved leaders have managed to misplace most of that bailout money on not so shovel ready perks to greenies and friends building stuff they say will stop our global warming nightmare........ right before they declare bankruptcy.

Funny how it always gets blamed on something other than gov't graft and incompetence, or maybe not so funny, just typical.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Under Obamacare all preventative services must be provided with no copay or coinsurance.

All plans must cover things like birth control, maternity, psychiatric care, even chiropractic care believe it or not. The only real "choice" is whether you want a lower premium and sky-high deductible or a sky-high premium and lower deductible. Clearly if you have a $300 deductible you most likely have an employer provided plan.

My husband recently became self-employed (not by choice). My family is all up to date on shots, healthy, no ongoing medical conditions. I no longer need birth control or maternity services. All we really need is a basic major medical plan that covers us in case of catastrophic illness. But we are forced to purchase a full ride plan that covers everything. The cheapest available plan for my family of 5 is 1000.00/month, and has a $12,000 deductible. Most likely we will use about 1000.00 total this year on physical exams, mammograms, flu shots etc. but we aren't allowed to choose to just self-pay our own medical expenses and carry a catastrophic plan. This is wiping out our savings. We have two kids going to college in two years.

We received some severance, half of which went right to the government. We joke that if my husband just stopped taking on these consulting projects we might almost be better off. Collect unemployment, free health insurance, maybe our kids go to college almost for free. Yeah, we'd have to sell our house and rent but still...at our income level we're not quite there, but I can see where some people might make that decision at some point. We're being punished for trying to work hard and earn a decent living. The emergency fund we've saved is going to the insurance company, it's not going to help us pay our bills.

Anyhoo, I'm looking for a job right now, any job that provides health insurance. I've been applying for jobs with our county government. The pay's not great but they offer health insurance, dental, vision, 12 vacation days, 14 paid holidays, 12 sick days (all of which accrue year to year and get paid out if you leave), and a pension, all for a fairly unskilled, "full time" job that is 35 hours/week. Our tax dollars at work. If you can't beat em join em.

I'm not looking for sympathy mind you, we are a lot better off than a lot of unemployed people. I just believe that we should have a lot more say in this matter of what kind of health insurance we have to have at varying stages of our life, and where to prioritize spending our own money when we need it most.

Drop your health insurance, pay the fine, and get an AFLAC policy for catastrophic stuff.

 

[oneforthebus]

Drop your health insurance, pay the fine, and get an AFLAC policy for catastrophic stuff.

Haven't looked into that. Maybe I should. Thought that just paid non-medical expenses? I'm not willing to risk having no medical insurance, I've seen how fast the bills can pile up.

Of course, if you get sick under Obamacare they can't deny you buying insurance.

Hmm..

Between the fine, the AFLAC premium, and our normal medical expenses I wonder if it would be cheaper. Of course we have to estimate our income to figure what the fine will be, and that's a total crapshoot at this point.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

With AFLAC you can pick and choose what to cover and they pay you a fixed amount of cash. Bud of mine is self-employed and he has AFLAC for cancer coverage only because he figures that's the only expensive thing that might happen to him. You can get disability and other kinds of insurance as well. I will probably get the disability when I go into the funeral business in case I get mucked up like I did in 2012 and spent five months in my living room.

 

[RollRed]

Just curious Red, do you think everyone in the middle class needs government health care, free tuition, and higher minimum wages? What if they already have that covered?
Should they be forced into paying for them anyway and lower the standard of living they worked hard to achieve?

Here's a newsflash... just because a person is having a hard time making ends meet doesn't mean they don't work hard. And did it ever occur to anyone that maybe if a week in the hospital didn't cost 50K and a decent education didn't cost 80 plus perhaps people wouldn't need so much help. That's the problem with right wingers... They always see the people with the least as the problem and never the greedy ***** that charge so much for the things folks need to live a decent life.

 

[SCSteeler4life]

Here's a newsflash... just because a person is having a hard time making ends meet doesn't mean they don't work hard. And did it ever occur to anyone that maybe if a week in the hospital didn't cost 50K and a decent education didn't cost 80 plus perhaps people wouldn't need so much help. That's the problem with right wingers... They always see the people with the least as the problem and never the greedy ***** that charge so much for the things folks need to live a decent life.

Well why is it so many of us so called right wingers seem to do just fine and make a decent living because we work hard save our money and don't over spend.

 

[Superman]

Here's a newsflash... just because a person is having a hard time making ends meet doesn't mean they don't work hard. And did it ever occur to anyone that maybe if a week in the hospital didn't cost 50K and a decent education didn't cost 80 plus perhaps people wouldn't need so much help. That's the problem with right wingers... They always see the people with the least as the problem and never the greedy ***** that charge so much for the things folks need to live a decent life.

to figure out why it costs so much to be in the hospital start here:
http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/top-20-healthcare-lobbyists-by-spending.html

 

[Steeltime]

Here's a newsflash... just because a person is having a hard time making ends meet doesn't mean they don't work hard. And did it ever occur to anyone that maybe if a week in the hospital didn't cost 50K and a decent education didn't cost 80 plus perhaps people wouldn't need so much help. That's the problem with right wingers... They always see the people with the least as the problem and never the greedy ***** that charge so much for the things folks need to live a decent life.

The reason that medical care and college are so astonishingly expensive is because government became involved and started paying a substantial portion of the costs for both. The reason for this is relatively basic, and something I learned in economics classes more than 30 years ago.

Say a consumer is willing to spend "x" for a good or service. Now give that same consumer insurance to cover some of the cost of the good or service. The business providing the good or service will now charge the consumer "x" for the good or service - what the consumer is willing to pay - in the form of a "deductible" or co-pay, and then charge the insurance company or government (student loans) a substantial amount above that price.

You are simply wrong in believing that government programs to help consumers pay for something will in fact make the product more available - it won't. Instead, it will drive up the price, making it even less affordable to the middle class. College tuition and medical care are but two examples. The more cost that government says it will absorb, the more the service will cost and the more the middle class simply cannot afford it.

 

[ark steel]

to figure out why it costs so much to be in the hospital start here:
http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/top-20-healthcare-lobbyists-by-spending.html

The reason that medical care and college are so astonishingly expensive is because government became involved and started paying a substantial portion of the costs for both. The reason for this is relatively basic, and something I learned in economics classes more than 30 years ago.

Say a consumer is willing to spend "x" for a good or service. Now give that same consumer insurance to cover some of the cost of the good or service. The business providing the good or service will now charge the consumer "x" for the good or service - what the consumer is willing to pay - in the form of a "deductible" or co-pay, and then charge the insurance company or government (student loans) a substantial amount above that price.

You are simply wrong in believing that government programs to help consumers pay for something will in fact make the product more available - it won't. Instead, it will drive up the price, making it even less affordable to the middle class. College tuition and medical care are but two examples. The more cost that government says it will absorb, the more the service will cost and the more the middle class simply cannot afford it.

I've explained this all before. Roll is pissed off that a hospital charged $36k to save his father's life.

Any good/service, as you note, will go up in costs when it is subsidized. When it is massively subsidized as healthcare and education are, the costs increase substantially. These are the two industries most heavily subsidized and, not a shock, the two that outpace inflation more than any other good/service.

In addition, when you have so very many regulations, as healthcare does and have to be so super careful regarding cross contamination, it gets even more expensive. When my wife had her recent surgeries, the hospital would use scissors and tweezers to remove the stitches. When they are done, the tweezers and stitches go into the trash. They simply can't afford to sterilize and reuse. That is a small individual thing, but multiplied over the millions of uses and other, similar, procedures gets expensive.

 

[ark steel]

to figure out why it costs so much to be in the hospital start here:
http://www.beckershospitalreview.com/finance/top-20-healthcare-lobbyists-by-spending.html

You might also note that Obamacare is a cash cow for insurance companies. Everyone HAS to buy their products.

 

[21STEELERS21]

If the government has run up medical costs in the USA, why are the single payer government run plans in other countries
so much cheaper?

One of the most interesting things from this political season so far is that the under 30 age group is much more socialist
whether conservative or progressive leaning, than are older Americans. I think they look at healthcare costs and are
driven in that direction. The Healthcare system is broken in the USA. If we had single payer, entrepreneurship would go
thru the roof. People are holding on to jobs because they can't afford healthcare for their families otherwise, when many
would prefer self employment and starting businesses.

 

[ark steel]

If the government has run up medical costs in the USA, why are the single payer government run plans in other countries
so much cheaper?

One of the most interesting things from this political season so far is that the under 30 age group is much more socialist
whether conservative or progressive leaning, than are older Americans. I think they look at healthcare costs and are
driven in that direction. The Healthcare system is broken in the USA. If we had single payer, entrepreneurship would go
thru the roof. People are holding on to jobs because they can't afford healthcare for their families otherwise, when many
would prefer self employment and starting businesses.

I was just about to add: Liberals don't understand the difference between "cost" and "price you pay". Thanks for pointing that out.

 

[oneforthebus]

If the government has run up medical costs in the USA, why are the single payer government run plans in other countries
so much cheaper?

They're cheaper because they ration care. They're also cheaper because the US leads the world in medical research and innovation.

One of the most interesting things from this political season so far is that the under 30 age group is much more socialist
whether conservative or progressive leaning, than are older Americans. I think they look at healthcare costs and are
driven in that direction. The Healthcare system is broken in the USA. If we had single payer, entrepreneurship would go
thru the roof. People are holding on to jobs because they can't afford healthcare for their families otherwise, when many
would prefer self employment and starting businesses

That's pretty much been the norm for decades. It's easy to be for all of these things when you don't make much money, have little or no financial responsibilities and don't have a family to take care of. Free everything sounds great until you are actually the one paying for it.

As the saying goes, if you're not a liberal at 20 you have no heart. If you're not a conservative at 40 you have no brain.

 

[DBS1970]

If the government has run up medical costs in the USA, why are the single payer government run plans in other countries
so much cheaper?

One of the most interesting things from this political season so far is that the under 30 age group is much more socialist
whether conservative or progressive leaning, than are older Americans. I think they look at healthcare costs and are
driven in that direction. The Healthcare system is broken in the USA. If we had single payer, entrepreneurship would go
thru the roof. People are holding on to jobs because they can't afford healthcare for their families otherwise, when many
would prefer self employment and starting businesses.

The answer to that is they are not cheaper. Dont confuse price with cost. The actual cost is covered by the massive taxes paid by the citizens of those socialist Utopias. The Scandinavian countries have always been sluggish and now they are starting to crash.

 

[oneforthebus]

The answer to that is they are not cheaper. Dont confuse price with cost. The actual cost is covered by the massive taxes paid by the citizens of those socialist Utopias. The Scandinavian countries have always been sluggish and now they are starting to crash.

In terms of cheaper I assumed he means that they spend less per capita on healthcare overall. Which is true, but there are huge trade offs for that.

 

[Steeltime]

If the government has run up medical costs in the USA, why are the single payer government run plans in other countries
so much cheaper?

Because they drive the price down by rationing health care. Need a hip replacement in England? Yeah, no you don't ... or maybe some time next year. Maybe.


GPs believe the numbers of patients asking about paying for operations including cataract removal and joint replacements has increased markedly in the last year, according to a poll. Dr Clare Gerada, chairman of the Royal College of GPs, said it was “incontrovertible” that increased NHS rationing was behind the increase in going private, a trend she described as “very sad”. The poll, carried out by ComRes for the firm BMI Healthcare, found that 70 per cent of GPs are now unable to refer a patient for further treatment on the NHS at least once a month because they do not qualify under local criteria.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...rationing-forcing-patients-to-go-private.html

So you want to ration health care in the United States? That is the only - REPEAT, THE ONLY - way government-run health care works.

Look, pretend you know how supply-and-demand work. Pretend that government now "pays" for healthcare (it doesn't, for crying out loud, the taxpayer does, but just pretend). Pretend that the healthcare user now sees the cost for healthcare as nothing. (It's not, for crying out loud, as long as the citizen works and pays taxes, but just pretend.)

Hey, it's free? Demand increases. It is the way the world works.

Does supply increase? No? Still need to have medical providers licensed, after 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 4 years of residency? Yes? So the supply remains as is, basically.

Hey, guess what happens when demand skyrockets and supply remains steady. Here, let me show you via a picture:

Oh, look, the price actually INCREASES.

But you say government is paying and does not have any more money to cover the costs? Hello, rationing. Just don't provide the medical care, and bam!! Costs covered.

 

[ark steel]

We should be getting ******* paid for providing all of this education.

 

[ark steel]

Because they drive the price down by rationing health care. Need a hip replacement in England? Yeah, no you don't ... or maybe some time next year. Maybe.


GPs believe the numbers of patients asking about paying for operations including cataract removal and joint replacements has increased markedly in the last year, according to a poll. Dr Clare Gerada, chairman of the Royal College of GPs, said it was “incontrovertible” that increased NHS rationing was behind the increase in going private, a trend she described as “very sad”. The poll, carried out by ComRes for the firm BMI Healthcare, found that 70 per cent of GPs are now unable to refer a patient for further treatment on the NHS at least once a month because they do not qualify under local criteria.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/hea...rationing-forcing-patients-to-go-private.html

So you want to ration health care in the United States? That is the only - REPEAT, THE ONLY - way government-run health care works.

Look, pretend you know how supply-and-demand work. Pretend that government now "pays" for healthcare (it doesn't, for crying out loud, the taxpayer does, but just pretend). Pretend that the healthcare user now sees the cost for healthcare as nothing. (It's not, for crying out loud, as long as the citizen works and pays taxes, but just pretend.)

Hey, it's free? Demand increases. It is the way the world works.

Does supply increase? No? Still need to have medical providers licensed, after 4 years of college, 4 years of medical school, and 4 years of residency? Yes? So the supply remains as is, basically.

Hey, guess what happens when demand skyrockets and supply remains steady. Here, let me show you via a picture:

Oh, look, the price actually INCREASES.

But you say government is paying and does not have any more money to cover the costs? Hello, rationing. Just don't provide the medical care, and bam!! Costs covered.

It doesn't even have to be free. A very simple example is the common cold. If it costs you $200 to go to the doctor for a cold and have to pay $100 for the medicine, you, probably, don't go. With insurance co-pays, the price you pay to go to the doctor may be as low as $25-$50 or so and the medicine as low as $20-$40. Well, now, you do go, as does everyone and their brother. Doctors offices get more busy and, surprise, costs go up! Your "price" of the co-pay may not, but the amount you pay for insurance will creep up.

 

[Superman]

I've explained this all before. Roll is pissed off that a hospital charged $36k to save his father's life.

should have seen if there was a Groupon first.

 

[Superman]

yeah, but, see, if minimum wage was $15/hr this wouldnt be an issue, you elitist racist shitbags.

 

[Chicoman]

Any ******* moron who thinks Bernie Sanders should be president is a moron! He's no different than Hitler a Democratic Socialist also!

Case Closed!