Covid Vaccine

[IndySteel]

There was an autistic kid in my small Catholic elementary school. I don't think he was called "autistic", everyone just considered him mentally retarded (which was an acceptable term back then).

It still is. How else does one describe Flog and Tibs? (Well, besides all the other obvious adjectives. Hmm... I should make a list)

 

[oneforthebus]

What percentage of MDs read package inserts for drugs they are professionally trained to prescribe?

Do you actually believe doctors don't know (or look up if they don't know) potential adverse effects and interactions of drugs they prescribe? Of course they do (not saying every doctor in the world is competent but that's a separate issue). They don't need to read package inserts, they have pharmacology books and online resources.

The reality is there is no such thing as a medical intervention that has zero risks or adverse events in anyone. There aren't even many foods found in nature that have zero risks of harming anyone. I know someone who's allergic to mangos.

 

[Confluence]

 

[oneforthebus]

Not going down that whole VAERS rabbit hole again, lol. It's been discussed to death here.

 

[Confluence]

Do you actually believe doctors don't know (or look up if they don't know) potential adverse effects and interactions of drugs they prescribe? Of course they do (not saying every doctor in the world is competent but that's a separate issue). They don't need to read package inserts, they have pharmacology books and online resources.

The reality is there is no such thing as a medical intervention that has zero risks or adverse events in anyone. There aren't even many foods found in nature that have zero risks of harming anyone. I know someone who's allergic to mangos.

It's almost impossible to understand drug-drug interactions or drug-food interactions because of the pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic complexity. So FDA trots out drug approval upon drug approval without any requirement for understanding these potential conflicts. And like Zona said above, very little pharmacology is part of their education process.

So yeah, I believe the same docs that said Covid shots were safe and reliable did so because they believed what they were told from government and suppliers, because the safety data was not available.....you and I went at this several years and hundreds of pages ago.....and just last week the EU admitted it lacked the safety basis for the Covid mRNA shots. You could look it up.

So, it's not a large logical step to understand that overworked MDs may not do all the homework that their patients believe they do, and instead those MDs may rely on the sales reps in shorts skirts as mentioned above. That is confirmed by my understanding from those formerly in those short skirts, happy to buy lunches, dinners and junkets for CME.

It's also clear that western nations, led by the US, are over-prescribed with drugs. This is well understood. How could that happen with responsible healthcare?

So yeah, docs prescribe drugs that have side effects that they are unaware of, damaging the health of those they are charged with protecting.

You can easily verify this by researching how many deaths each year in the US are caused by medical errors; not a trivial amount. This doesn't include those misdiagnosed/over-precribed who survive an unfortunate MD experience, so even if you take the low end of the range, the public health concerns are significant.

 

[Superman]

Do you actually believe doctors don't know (or look up if they don't know) potential adverse effects and interactions of drugs they prescribe? Of course they do (not saying every doctor in the world is competent but that's a separate issue). They don't need to read package inserts, they have pharmacology books and online resources.

The reality is there is no such thing as a medical intervention that has zero risks or adverse events in anyone. There aren't even many foods found in nature that have zero risks of harming anyone. I know someone who's allergic to mangos.

I asked my doc about any correlation between my emergency appendectomy and the shot at my most recent visit. he said that there were some people who had adverse effects, but the shot likely saved millions.

he was prescribing something to me and I was asking the side effects. He literally asked me "do you think I'd prescribe something that I didn't believe in?" Essentially "trust me" on this. Despite a most recent prescription that did cause side effects. So ... trust your doc or trust your gut?

 

[Confluence]

Some light reading on "why did they do it?", from the Scots and Swiss.
The answer is exactly what you'd expect:

https://watermark02.silverchair.com/qnaf092.pdf?token=AQECAHi208BE49Ooan9kkhW_Ercy7Dm3ZL_9Cf3qfKAc485ysgAAA3AwggNsBgkqhkiG9w0BBwagggNdMIIDWQIBADCCA1IGCSqGSIb3DQEHATAeBglghkgBZQMEAS4wEQQMw3cBSgeB-ape4dyoAgEQgIIDI1pzBL94E9w-MQ2VVN68L6NriIH2p6dw_1IzKxXM1G1wT497goowfGaetnaog_fb1xr1u3xsRC-YHzXNhaSmtPcF3G62IYC-T2TfuCWQGHkkH4gP-fi0BKUrMmxSOgjPcQW4wjWqTudXpMIKc2z-L59fou7rJhgnQeGmQZJVUR9DOynPmz3SGKdpznMjDDGIusM2lsfy4HyUkFY9fMRUaWo-9O_r53vThXcGDIAyWslhJAWpG2T-mnNFX8xj_ovwfZr630EkswyvWTPWFHCuQrCJlMts38F6DonlggqLDYgLIDqa-ybX2WskKExR4lCsFCExXtIIXiyitFOkQIHTNV0w1zzhkbEsOqBBrseo76Pr503GVA5J9EgC6dT_Nnxvkpk72zz89E9AyizcTCwdaQV7bjWpf7QVu4SauUAN1UZv7Bar7b6u2Fs2EwCnkXlFdC8Aol2JnFUVmmmF-e6vZgo1RiXyCjnWgNwy4_jSecwiPUQJaqePPCvrKAzHVjoAwSGwa-Ib4v0MTk51WGEIz3p77ilpmq8SQIy0ksHLkBWxVfMBemCFpWcvS1W0eQ6L0luTamnsJSxlNNE0d8k2JTEXwyGzzP5iYj7BWpCwzUJB5XrtEbM9wKVFY4wv1BgITnwzJBSWQXmflJM3UxBgAf3XOVWUKyv8ZeQLNV7CAuINKKg0IgUhayQ6a1QIFGSN4lEwseRFdqK2-8jjNJL0Vks7qOeLb2wLaAQ1XPYwBz6z0cVi0VPMGxJBypcCKxAcnDHv8dInfG-ZdUsnLDsfaOvKh4tDf9b-24sOzvDBF7aSxyA5ZKhLa131XN6x13JWgFoS88RvGtrLP0T__ds4so23g37j4Hmf47KmTxZmIIrVapXst5I99Mrj1qDHPKWR7BhEQ_jtHwS0EnTtBk24EpnYe795EpsaMzh8IfYWn2TCurMy7Rr405hfD7a2mQVsieknNFH65TOjHAkOAC_52x6d5Xai9N1Atim7JyprVzYPgCEpgor9OsT1qeDfWxJSSdowfWeYBIqP-LBItLzW_unhsvUVLpSELx3-KnUX-GGZ-RIm

 

[Confluence]

I asked my doc about any correlation between my emergency appendectomy and the shot at my most recent visit. he said that there were some people who had adverse effects, but the shot likely saved millions.

he was prescribing something to me and I was asking the side effects. He literally asked me "do you think I'd prescribe something that I didn't believe in?" Essentially "trust me" on this. Despite a most recent prescription that did cause side effects. So ... trust your doc or trust your gut?

What do call informed consent and did you give that informed consent to your doc?

 

[jitter77]

I think any meds taken during pregnancy have some sort of risk especially if the mother takes alot. Also even though prenatal care is better alot of babies are being born into less than ideal situations by mothers who barely even see a Dr. I don't think you can compare the covid vaccine to Tylenol. We have had decades of research on Tylenol. The covid vaccine is new and the mRNA method is also relatively new. Trump also choose Kirks memorial to tease the "cure" to autism which was very tacky. Trump / RFK should probably not talk about any medical info. It really makes them look incompetent.

 

[oneforthebus]

I asked my doc about any correlation between my emergency appendectomy and the shot at my most recent visit. he said that there were some people who had adverse effects, but the shot likely saved millions.

he was prescribing something to me and I was asking the side effects. He literally asked me "do you think I'd prescribe something that I didn't believe in?" Essentially "trust me" on this. Despite a most recent prescription that did cause side effects. So ... trust your doc or trust your gut?

My gut doesn’t have years of medical training and experience, so I’d tend to trust my doc. The covid vaccine was rushed yes, but it was a pandemic. It was a risk vs. reward scenario. Of course if you believe that it killed millions of people you’re gonna say the reward wasn’t worth the risks. My personal view based on the legitimate research I’ve read was that it did have some rare but serious adverse events, that it did prevent some serious illness and covid deaths. In young healthy people who are unlikely to get seriously ill from covid it probably isn’t worth the risk. That’s with the benefit of hindsight of course.
You do know that anyone can get appendicitis at any time right? And millions and millions got the shot multiple times and did not get appendicitis. So it’s impossible to say whether they were related or not. A study comparing rates of appendicitis in vaxxed vs. unvaxxed people (controlling for factors like age, etc.) would do that, I haven’t seen one.

 

[oneforthebus]

It's almost impossible to understand drug-drug interactions or drug-food interactions because of the pharmacokinetic and pharmacodynamic complexity. So FDA trots out drug approval upon drug approval without any requirement for understanding these potential conflicts. And like Zona said above, very little pharmacology is part of their education process.

So yeah, I believe the same docs that said Covid shots were safe and reliable did so because they believed what they were told from government and suppliers, because the safety data was not available.....you and I went at this several years and hundreds of pages ago.....and just last week the EU admitted it lacked the safety basis for the Covid mRNA shots. You could look it up.

So, it's not a large logical step to understand that overworked MDs may not do all the homework that their patients believe they do, and instead those MDs may rely on the sales reps in shorts skirts as mentioned above. That is confirmed by my understanding from those formerly in those short skirts, happy to buy lunches, dinners and junkets for CME.

It's also clear that western nations, led by the US, are over-prescribed with drugs. This is well understood. How could that happen with responsible healthcare?

So yeah, docs prescribe drugs that have side effects that they are unaware of, damaging the health of those they are charged with protecting.

You can easily verify this by researching how many deaths each year in the US are caused by medical errors; not a trivial amount. This doesn't include those misdiagnosed/over-precribed who survive an unfortunate MD experience, so even if you take the low end of the range, the public health concerns are significant.

Of course there are medical errors. It’s not the norm though. It’s not a reason to not ever take a prescribed medication. It’s probably a reason to maybe do your own research before taking a bunch of meds together. And of course not all meds affect all people the same, it’s not entirely predictable even in the best case scenario. Many people take Tylenol their entire life with no issues, some die of liver damage from it.
I had a common antibiotic destroy my vestibular system. However I might have died of sepsis without it. Risk/reward.

 

[ZonaBurgh]

My gut doesn’t have years of medical training and experience, so I’d tend to trust my doc. The covid vaccine was rushed yes, but it was a pandemic. It was a risk vs. reward scenario. Of course if you believe that it killed millions of people you’re gonna say the reward wasn’t worth the risks. My personal view based on the legitimate research I’ve read was that it did have some rare but serious adverse events, that it did prevent some serious illness and covid deaths. In young healthy people who are unlikely to get seriously ill from covid it probably isn’t worth the risk. That’s with the benefit of hindsight of course.
You do know that anyone can get appendicitis at any time right? And millions and millions got the shot multiple times and did not get appendicitis. So it’s impossible to say whether they were related or not. A study comparing rates of appendicitis in vaxxed vs. unvaxxed people (controlling for factors like age, etc.) would do that, I haven’t seen one.

I contend that the covid shot, still won't call it a vaccine, did in fact save lives. The problem that I have are those that continue the support of it being used in literally everyone. With a segmented population it could still provide some benefit but should never again be forced on anyone.

 

[Badcat]

My gut doesn’t have years of medical training and experience, so I’d tend to trust my doc. The covid vaccine was rushed yes, but it was a pandemic. It was a risk vs. reward scenario. Of course if you believe that it killed millions of people you’re gonna say the reward wasn’t worth the risks. My personal view based on the legitimate research I’ve read was that it did have some rare but serious adverse events, that it did prevent some serious illness and covid deaths. In young healthy people who are unlikely to get seriously ill from covid it probably isn’t worth the risk. That’s with the benefit of hindsight of course.
You do know that anyone can get appendicitis at any time right? And millions and millions got the shot multiple times and did not get appendicitis. So it’s impossible to say whether they were related or not. A study comparing rates of appendicitis in vaxxed vs. unvaxxed people (controlling for factors like age, etc.) would do that, I haven’t seen one.

Well, when the US government provided liability protections to the vaccine manufactures it was a huge red flag to me to at least look into it more before throwing my arm out there at my Doctor's recommendation. When I refused it, he got pissed off at me and never let it go. The next year he said my cholesterol was a little high and wanted to put me on meds, I said I'd get back to him. I did my own blood work and it stated I was in a healthy range. I sent it to him via the patient portal and got a nasty message back and I was notified that I was no longer his patient.

All he seemed to want to do is throw meds at me. Why not tell me to watch my diet, lose some weight, get more exercise and see me in another 6 months for a progress check? Get to the root of the problem, ya know?

 

[oneforthebus]

Well, when the US government provided liability protections to the vaccine manufactures it was a huge red flag to me to at least look into it more before throwing my arm out there at my Doctor's recommendation. When I refused it, he got pissed off at me and never let it go. The next year he said my cholesterol was a little high and wanted to put me on meds, I said I'd get back to him. I did my own blood work and it stated I was in a healthy range. I sent it to him via the patient portal and got a nasty message back and I was notified that I was no longer his patient.

All he seemed to want to do is throw meds at me. Why not tell me to watch my diet, lose some weight, get more exercise and see me in another 6 months for a progress check? Get to the root of the problem, ya know?

I'm all for more natural approaches but they are very difficult to stick to and the reality is many people don't. Do you want to be the doctor who has someone die of a heart attack when you could have prescribed a med that would reduce their risk?

I know many of you think this is all about money and to some extent that plays a role, but meds don't get recommended willy nilly. There is science behind them. Are they perfect? Of course not. Doing nothing is certainly not perfect either. It's a balance. We've gone so far anti-medicine and anti-science it's frightening. I do understand the lost trust after this latest vaccine debacle. I just don't hold the same view of modern medicine as some sinister entity just itching to put us on useless treatments that harm us. Not when average life expectancy was once 39.5 years old and now is pushing 80.

 

[oneforthebus]

I contend that the covid shot, still won't call it a vaccine, did in fact save lives. The problem that I have are those that continue the support of it being used in literally everyone. With a segmented population it could still provide some benefit but should never again be forced on anyone.

I agree.

I said from the beginning that trying to force people or mandate it was going to have the opposite effect, that it would actually cause more people to reject it, and boy was I right.

 

[Superman]

I'm all for more natural approaches but they are very difficult to stick to and the reality is many people don't. Do you want to be the doctor who has someone die of a heart attack when you could have prescribed a med that would reduce their risk?

I know many of you think this is all about money and to some extent that plays a role, but meds don't get recommended willy nilly. There is science behind them. Are they perfect? Of course not. Doing nothing is certainly not perfect either. It's a balance. We've gone so far anti-medicine and anti-science it's frightening. I do understand the lost trust after this latest vaccine debacle. I just don't hold the same view of modern medicine as some sinister entity just itching to put us on useless treatments that harm us. Not when average life expectancy was once 39.5 years old and now is pushing 80.

I trust my doctor, but I also know my body. I will agree that the ClotShot did save lives. But I do not agree that a one-shot-for-all is indeed one-shot-for-all. There are multiple variations of prescriptions for people based on the number and types of prescriptions they take, so they do not conflict with one another. Yet the ClotShot was the holiest ever produced by man. Allegedly.

 

[Troglodyte]

 

[Confluence]

Of course there are medical errors.

Yes there are stats for that, and experts point to a large variance in the causative factor in patient deaths and injuries.

It’s not the norm though.

It actually is. Thats what statistics are: they literally define the average or norm. Look it up.

It’s not a reason to not ever take a prescribed medication.

Didn't say that at all.

It’s probably a reason to maybe do your own research before taking a bunch of meds together.

its the reason MDs go to medical school, to be precise. First do no harm.

Good advice for all to do their own research; remember when that was a bad idea during Covid? Trust your MD, but verify because it's unlikely they read the package insert; more likely they read the glossy pitch piece from the drug maker.

And of course not all meds affect all people the same, it’s not entirely predictable even in the best case scenario.

Thank you for agreeing. Its why informed consent matters.

Many people take Tylenol their entire life with no issues, some die of liver damage from it.

Yep, lots do die from liver issues associated with acetaminophen; it gets worse with alcohol use.

I had a common antibiotic destroy my vestibular system. However I might have died of sepsis without it. Risk/reward.

Sorry to hear.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

It's also clear that western nations, led by the US, are over-prescribed with drugs. This is well understood. How could that happen with responsible healthcare

I’m in good shape for being 65, not overweight, I bench pressed 300 lb last week on my birthday, yet my mother will be 90 next month and takes less pills than I do.
On the other hand, our dog takes more pills than I do.

 

[Booted]

I usually wash down one or two Tylenol after reading your posts.

 

[Troglodyte]

There it is! nursemichele.rn sets the record straight.

 

[Troglodyte]

 

[ZonaBurgh]

Some people latch onto the most trivial things.