Covid Vaccine

[Tim Steelersfan]

I can't agree that they aren't working. At this point, they are keeping hospitalizations and deaths down among those vaccinated. What I can say is that what they provide has changed a time or two.

For example...

1) Take the vaccine and you won't catch COVID.

2) Take the vaccine, so you won't spread COVID.

3) Take the vaccine. You can still catch and spread COVID, but you are less likely to be hospitalized or die.

There may have been more.

It's almost as though they aren't exactly certain what this "vaccine" actually does.

And people wonder why there is mistrust.

I'm not saying they are NOT working. You summed it up. What they were originally purported to be and what they are now are quite far apart.

They simply are not nearly as effective as we were initially led to believe they would be.

 

[oneforthebus]

Thus my question was, "WHEN" was the last time you needed a vaccine booster? Incredibly rare. Typically, tetanus is what we may all get if we haven't had one in 10 to 15 years. The rest are typically two phases done in our youth. The others listed are "may" and some are travel related.

None of that compares to where we are now. People who received the "vaccine" in May or April already lining up for shot 3. Less than 6 months later.

With variants still coming, we are going to need boosters what...every 6 months? Every 12? What vaccine in history has required an annual shot? And don't say the flu. That's not a vaccine.

Or we all agree, given where we are after this world-wide experiment, that these aren't really vaccines, they are comparable to flu shots.

Kids can get boosters a few weeks, or months or even a few years after getting a vaccine. It varies by the vaccine. This is only different because we're getting the first one as adults instead of as kids.

In answer to your second question, we don't know yet. Science evolves. We gain knowledge from experience. Who knows, a third booster might protect you for life. We might need a new one every year. Covid might peter out and die due to so much natural immunity. We don't know what we don't know until we know it. We never have.

 

[Confluence]

Or we all agree, given where we are after this world-wide experiment, that these aren't really vaccines, they are comparable to flu shots.

Correction Tim. They are flu shots. How else could they possibly get thru safety and efficacy (phase 1 and 2) without any completed studies?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Here is the Israel vaccine study in full showing people vaccinated (and not having natural immunity) are 13x more likely to contract Delta than those naturally immune.

file:///Users/timpersonalmacbookpro/Downloads/COVID-Delta-Protection-for-those-without-Vaccine.pdf

Abstract

Background:
Reports of waning vaccine-induced immunity against COVID-19 have begun to surface. With that, the comparable long-term protection conferred by previous infection with SARS-CoV-2 remains unclear.

Methods:
We conducted a retrospective observational study comparing three groups: (1)SARSCoV-2-naïve individuals who received a two-dose regimen of the BioNTech/Pfizer mRNA BNT162b2 vaccine, (2)previously infected individuals who have not been vaccinated, and (3)previously infected and single dose vaccinated individuals. Three multivariate logistic regression models were applied. In all models we evaluated four outcomes: SARS-CoV-2 infection, symptomatic disease, COVID-19-related hospitalization and death. The follow-up period of June 1 to August 14, 2021, when the Delta variant was dominant in Israel.

Results:
SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccines had a 13.06-fold (95% CI, 8.08 to 21.11) increased risk for breakthrough infection with the Delta variant compared to those previously infected, when the first event (infection or vaccination) occurred during January and February of 2021. The increased risk was significant (P<0.001) for symptomatic disease as well. When allowing the infection to occur at any time before vaccination (from March 2020 to February 2021), evidence of waning natural immunity was demonstrated, though SARS-CoV-2 naïve vaccines had a 5.96-fold (95% CI, 4.85 to 7.33) increased risk for breakthrough infection and a 7.13-fold (95% CI, 5.51 to 9.21) increased risk for symptomatic disease. SARS-CoV-2-naïve vaccines were also at a greater risk for COVID-19-related-hospitalizations compared to those that were previously infected.

Conclusions:
This study demonstrated that natural immunity confers longer lasting and stronger protection against infection, symptomatic disease and hospitalization caused by the Delta variant of SARS-CoV-2, compared to the BNT162b2 two-dose vaccine-induced immunity. Individuals who were both previously infected with SARS-CoV-2 and given a single dose of the vaccine gained additional protection against the Delta variant

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Kids can get boosters a few weeks, or months or even a few years after getting a vaccine. It varies by the vaccine. This is only different because we're getting the first one as adults instead of as kids.

In answer to your second question, we don't know yet. Science evolves. We gain knowledge from experience. Who knows, a third booster might protect you for life. We might need a new one every year. Covid might peter out and die due to so much natural immunity. We don't know what we don't know until we know it. We never have.

Nope, we don't. But we can look at what has transpired. And what has transpired would lead one to believe that booster shots are going to be a regular requirement given the evolution of mutations with COVID and the vaccines' inability to prevent spread. Each new mutation will require a new shot....as it appears now. This may not be the case.

See the Israel study I just posted. While the vaccines were effective against COVID, they were highly ineffective v Delta and those with natural immunity are in a better position than those only vaccinated. Thus that population will need boosters to fight new variants.

COVID isn't going to be eradicated, it's endemic. So boosters may - may - be a lifelong issue.

 

[Steelworth]

 

[Confluence]

Nope, we don't. But we can look at what has transpired. And what has transpired would lead one to believe that booster shots are going to be a regular requirement given the evolution of mutations with COVID and the vaccines' inability to prevent spread. Each new mutation will require a new shot....as it appears now. This may not be the case.

See the Israel study I just posted. While the vaccines were effective against COVID, they were highly ineffective v Delta and those with natural immunity are in a better position than those only vaccinated. Thus that population will need boosters to fight new variants.

COVID isn't going to be eradicated, it's endemic. So boosters may - may - be a lifelong issue.

The annual Covid/flu shot will come with several strains/variants represented, as a best guess against flu over the next year.....

 

[oneforthebus]

Nope, we don't. But we can look at what has transpired. And what has transpired would lead one to believe that booster shots are going to be a regular requirement given the evolution of mutations with COVID and the vaccines' inability to prevent spread. Each new mutation will require a new shot....as it appears now. This may not be the case.

See the Israel study I just posted. While the vaccines were effective against COVID, they were highly ineffective v Delta and those with natural immunity are in a better position than those only vaccinated. Thus that population will need boosters to fight new variants.

COVID isn't going to be eradicated, it's endemic. So boosters may - may - be a lifelong issue.

Yes, they may.

Yeah, I think natural immunity is probably at least as strong as vaccines. As long as you don't die getting it.

Let's not forget that the delta variant was caused by rapid spread of covid in the population. It occurred before there were any vaccines. Anything that shows or reduces spread is likely to help curb the occurrence of new variants. Eliminate? No. Slow? Yes.

 

[Confluence]

GOOD NEWS!! Maybe some Pfizer execs will take a pay cut, get their former FDA positions back and help the Administration disregard more FDA "regulations"!!

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Yes, they may.

Yeah, I think natural immunity is probably at least as strong as vaccines. As long as you don't die getting it.

Let's not forget that the delta variant was caused by rapid spread of covid in the population. It occurred before there were any vaccines. Anything that shows or reduces spread is likely to help curb the occurrence of new variants. Eliminate? No. Slow? Yes.

Nearly every study produced over the past 3 months or so shows natural immunity is better. I'm not reading much to the contrary.

I'm slowly coming to the conclusion, and this is just my opinion based on all I read...and y'all know I read alot daily on all of this...that it will eventually be natural immunity that gets us out of this.

That's not saying vaccinating isn't helping in any way. If the vaccines prevent people from dying and lessens symptoms, good. But the vaccines alone aren't going to fix this problem. Natural immunity will. We all need to get it. And if you've had COVID, good, you're in a good place. If you've not, the vaccine seems smart for those at risk so that when you do get it - because we are all gonna get it - you can safely acquire natural protection while getting a little sick.

 

[Superman]

They have even more uneducated, ignorant rednecks. Why do you love those people?

know what they all have in common with the unvaccinated swarm your political party is importing by the thousands across the border at any given minute?




a general distrust of the gubmint.

 

[Troglodyte]

None of us...no one, needs to be a doctor to...

• Understand the words of the CDC and Rochelle Walensky: The vaccines no longer stop the spread of COVID
• Witness the RISING number of breakthrough infections we were all told were only gonna be about 1%.
• Watch the rising number of vaccinated patients who are being hospitalized
• Hear the head of the Jerusalem hospital stating 90% of their hospitalized are vaccinated
• Read YOUR PPG article showing 30 and 40% of hospitalized patients in that area are vaccinated
• Watch the ever growing number of cases in the USA while we are 52% fully/61% partially vaccinated

No one needs to be a doctor to realize - these aren't working. If I had told you in 2020 that by August of 2021 we would be 52%-61% vaccinated and we would have states with case loads higher than at any point in 2020 you'd have laughed and said BULLSHIT.

WELL HERE WE ARE.

These shots are nothing like the measles, diptheria, mumps, polio vaccines.

And answer my question: When was the last time you needed a booster shot for a vaccine? Answer.

it wasn’t long ago you were arguing that deaths are what’s relevant, who cares about cases? Now it’s all about the spread of cases and case loads. Uh, what happened?

Also from the PPG article, 11,000 vaccinated hospitalizations or deaths out of 171 Million vaccinations. One out of every 15,500 vaccinated people. The vaccine works, Tim.

 

[Superman]

He's a self-righteous, liberal/socialist, and like the expatriate, is incapable of admitting being wrong on literally any subject. There was a time when I found the best course of action was to avoid these people, then easy to do, but today they seem to be everywhere and multiplying at an exponential rate.

 

[Superman]

Tim, as a child, not trusting the accepted school of thought that electricity is real.

View attachment 6253

are you certain that isnt lil Tibs testing to see if Socialism is safe yet?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

it wasn’t long ago you were arguing that deaths are what’s relevant, who cares about cases? Now it’s all about the spread of cases and case loads. Uh, what happened?

Deaths still are relevant. And at the time, I, like the rest of the nation, believed the vaccines and natural immunity were working - thus our incredibly low numbers in June.

When the viral respiratory disease began rising in July, it became clear and my eyes were open...vaccination isn't working.

If it was...being 52%-61% vaccinated as a nation, we wouldn't be seeing these numbers, would we?

Also from the PPG article, 11,000 vaccinated hospitalizations or deaths out of 171 Million vaccinations.

You omit that also from the article, it stated "“National surveillance relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data are not complete or representative,” according to the CDC"

One out of every 15,500 vaccinated people. The vaccine works, Tim.

Your PPG article states otherwise. You do remember when you were barking about how incredibly rare breakthrough cases were? You don't? We do.

In Allegheny County, based on limited testing data, the Health Department is seeing COVID-19 breakthrough rates of about 30%

Is 30% greater than 1%? Asking for a friend.

Remember when y'all do be say that the vaccine prevents people from getting seriously ill from COVID?

Among people hospitalized for the virus in the Pittsburgh region, the percentage who have been fully vaccinated ranges between 7% and 40%, doctors say, depending on the time period measured....and

At Washington Health System, between 25% and 40% of patients hospitalized for COVID-19 were fully vaccinated

Clearly the vaccines are working as we watch breakthrough cases rise in the PGH area alone from the CDC professed 1% to 30% and as we watch the % of people hospitalized due to COVID who are vaccinated rise to 40%. Rising. Not getting better....rising.

Yeah, they work. Just not nearly as well as we were told they were going to work and not nearly as well as we thought they were working in June.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

are you certain that isnt lil Tibs testing to see if Socialism is safe yet?

 

[Superman]

it wasn’t long ago you were arguing that deaths are what’s relevant, who cares about cases? Now it’s all about the spread of cases and case loads. Uh, what happened?

Also from the PPG article, 11,000 vaccinated hospitalizations or deaths out of 171 Million vaccinations. One out of every 15,500 vaccinated people. The vaccine works, Tim.

I used to have a friend who had a truck that would go 0-60 in an estimated 5.5 seconds. Seating inside for 5, with a camper over the bed in case of rain so your storage would stay dry. Everything worked going downhill.

problem is, it wouldnt go uphill very good. sometimes you'd have to get out and push. regardless, it would go downhill really ******* fast.

so did the truck work or not?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

I used to have a friend who had a truck that would go 0-60 in an estimated 5.5 seconds. Seating inside for 5, with a camper over the bed in case of rain so your storage would stay dry. Everything worked going downhill.

problem is, it wouldnt go uphill very good. sometimes you'd have to get out and push. regardless, it would go downhill really ******* fast.

so did the truck work or not?

He's gonna need a day or three to chew on that.

 

[Troglodyte]

Deaths still are relevant. And at the time, I, like the rest of the nation, believed the vaccines and natural immunity were working - thus our incredibly low numbers in June.

When the viral respiratory disease began rising in July, it became clear and my eyes were open...vaccination isn't working.

If it was...being 52%-61% vaccinated as a nation, we wouldn't be seeing these numbers, would we?



You omit that also from the article, it stated "“National surveillance relies on passive and voluntary reporting, and data are not complete or representative,” according to the CDC"



Your PPG article states otherwise. You do remember when you were barking about how incredibly rare breakthrough cases were? You don't? We do.

In Allegheny County, based on limited testing data, the Health Department is seeing COVID-19 breakthrough rates of about 30%

Is 30% greater than 1%? Asking for a friend.

Remember when y'all do be say that the vaccine prevents people from getting seriously ill from COVID?

Among people hospitalized for the virus in the Pittsburgh region, the percentage who have been fully vaccinated ranges between 7% and 40%, doctors say, depending on the time period measured....and

At Washington Health System, between 25% and 40% of patients hospitalized for COVID-19 were fully vaccinated

Clearly the vaccines are working as we watch breakthrough cases rise in the PGH area alone from the CDC professed 1% to 30% and as we watch the % of people hospitalized due to COVID who are vaccinated rise to 40%. Rising. Not getting better....rising.

Yeah, they work. Just not nearly as well as we were told they were going to work and not nearly as well as we thought they were working in June.

“Clearly the vaccines are working”

“But, but, but… not as well as we had hoped” So the **** what? As if that would be any consolation to an unvaccinated person on a ventilator.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

More on the Israel study, but Martin Kulldorff of Harvard explains how this study (and fifteen others) show the discrimination of, and lack of science involved with proposed vaccine passports.

Harvard Epidemiologist Says the Case for COVID Vaccine Passports Was Just Demolished

A new study on Israel's COVID outbreak found that vaccinated individuals had 27 times higher risk of symptomatic COVID infection than those with natural immunity from prior COVID infection.

fee.org

“The newly released data show people who once had a SARS-CoV-2 infection were much less likely than vaccinated people to get Delta, develop symptoms from it, or become hospitalized with serious COVID-19.”

Put another way, vaccinated individuals were 27 times more likely to get a symptomatic COVID infection than those with natural immunity from COVID.

Vaccine passports are morally dubious for many reasons, not the least of which is that freedom of movement is a basic human right. However, vaccine passports become even more senseless in light of the new findings out of Israel and revelations from the CDC, some say.

Harvard Medical School professor Martin Kulldorff said research showing that natural immunity offers exponentially more protection than vaccines means vaccine passports are both unscientific and discriminatory, since they disproportionately affect working class individuals.

Nor is the study out of Israel a one-off. Media reports show that no fewer than 15 academic studies have found that natural immunity offers immense protection from COVID-19.

Vaccine passports would be immoral and a massive government overreach even in the absence of these findings. There is simply no historical parallel for governments attempting to restrict the movements of healthy people over a respiratory virus in this manner. Yet the justification for vaccine passports becomes not just wrong but absurd in light of these new revelations.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

“But, but, but… not as well as we had hoped” So the **** what?

So the **** what? Seriously???

You're arguing "almost" is good enough?

Cases are skyrocketing AND among the vaccinated. But that's good enough for you.
40% of people being hospitalized in areas are vaccinated now. But that's good enough for you.
The vaccines aren't effective against Delta variant. But that's good enough for you.

Because they do "something". It's like you arguing that if masks work 1% of the time we should all wear them.

Our...approach....isn't....effective.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

And yet another study showing masks did nothing to prevent the spread of COVID.

Study finds mask mandates have no substantial effect on slowing COVID-19 spread

With students finally headed back to school for the fall, debate is raging nationwide over whether K-12 children should be required to wear face masks to reduce the spread of COVID-19. But a peer-reviewed study suggests that mask use and requirements during the pandemic had no substantial impact...

www.theblaze.com

This was a PEER REVIEWED study.

Researchers from the University of Louisville examined COVID-19 case growth and mask use in the United States, comparing states with mask mandates to states without, and found that "mask mandates and use likely did not affect COVID-19 case growth."

"It appears that mandates and typical mask use among the public have no substantial impact on COVID-19 growth," Guerra said. "Early in the pandemic (Summer 2020), there was an association between lower infection rates and mask mandates and use. However, this association disappeared when transmission levels rose despite increased mask use in the Fall and Winter.

"While growth rates did decline in states after mask mandates became effective, rates declined to a similar degree in states without mandates," he added.

^^^^^^Gosh that sounds real familiar to arguments I was having last year with a certain someone here.

"Simulations with mannequins and theoretical calculations also support this, as virus-containing aerosols efficiently escape from masks that are not fitted respirators. Aerosols would presumably accumulate to a steady state level in congregant settings to enable infection levels like those in non-masked settings," he explained.

"However, this process is time dependent, so it is possible that a simple surgical or cloth mask could offer some protection in a passing encounter of short duration. For workplaces or schools, where people congregate for hours at a time, you would expect much less protection."

 

[Badcat]

Tim, you're spitt'n out rhymes to a dude wearing headphones. Probably listening to Boy George.

 

[Tibs]

Cases are skyrocketing

Who cares? Nothing but the flu. Not dangerous at all, the whole thing is overblown. Right?

 

[IndySteel]

Who cares? Nothing but the flu. Not dangerous at all, the whole thing is overblown.

Looks like someone smacked you upside your commie melon with a reality bat.