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Does Israel have a right to exist? Whats your solution?

DBS1970

I hate you all and I blame Ark for that.
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This little gem got me thinking:

This is, and has always been, a crock of ****. Guerilla warfare requires the use of one's own territory to fight. The "human shields" defense is what you good Christian folk use as an excuse to bomb schools, Mosques and hospitals. To run over ambulances with tanks.

It isn't that you don't know what the truth is, it's that you don't care.

Hamas is at least nominally and notionally a nation and the governmental authority in the territory it controls. So if they being a sovereign nation choose to attack another sovereign nation using questionable tactics that means the nation they attacked has the right to defend itself. In this case Israel has only one choice, fight back at an enemy that attacks from residential areas and apartment buildings or absorb the punishment and let its population become casualties. To put it in perspective this would be like the Mexican army attacking El Paso Texas from inside Jaurez. Naturally our armed forces would respond and defend our citizens and territory.

My solution would be this: Israel forcibly repatriates the Palestinians to Egypt in the Sinai. The Sinai is historically the actual land of the Palestinian Arabs and the Egyptians can swap the Coptic Christians to Israel. The international community can build the infrastructure for water sources and agriculture for the Arabs because any funds given to the Palestinian Arabs they have historically used to purchase weapons and munitions. The Arabs can then build their own civilization in the largely empty Sinai as part of Egypt or they can seek to organize their own country. They can hash that out with their fellow Muslim Arabs.
 
I can tell, this is going to be ugly.

The short answer is NO. Israel is an illegal occupation because the Partition Plan was unlawful.

United Nations Charter Article 1 said:
Article 1

The Purposes of the United Nations are

1) To maintain international peace and security, to take effective collective measures for the prevention and removal of threats to the peace, and for the suppression of acts of aggression or other breaches of the peace, and to bring about by peaceful means, and in conformity with the principles of justice and international law, adjustment or settlement of international disputes or situations which might lead to a breach of the peace;

2) To develop friendly relations among nations based on respect for the principle of equal rights and self-determination of peoples, and to take other appropriate measures to strengthen universal peace;

3) To achieve international co-operation in solving international problems of an economic, social, cultural, or humanitarian character, and in promoting and encouraging respect for human rights and for fundamental freedoms for all without distinction as to race, sex, language, or religion; and

4) To be a centre for harmonizing the actions of nations in the attainment of these common ends.


I draw your attention to the highlighted portion in section 2. The partition plan violated the Palestinians right to self determination by granting the lands they themselves had lived on for generations to another people. A people that had no legitimate right to claim said lands. That makes the founding of Israel flatly illegal. All the rest of this **** about "self defense" and "right to exist" is meaningless. They took something that didn't belong to them, and thieves have no property rights.

I know. I know. Now I get to hear about how I must have some problem with Jews. I do not. I have a problem with my country not living up to it's principles. "We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT that all men are CREATED EQUAL" That is our nation's creed. "Separate is INHERENTLY unequal". That is our nation's policy. Were we to apply it earnestly to Israel, we would be pushing for a ONE STATE solution and a UNIFIED HOLY LAND. So all of you people screaming "bigot" and "antisemite" at the top of your lungs at anyone opposing Israeli Apartheid, you yourselves are fundamentally Un-American.
 
First a couple of things. There have always been Jews in Israel. The Arabs have been trying to push them out and exterminate them for centuries. The Roman Diaspora did not remove all the Jews from the Holy Land, just the Zealots from the north kingdom. The Palestinian Arabs that claim to have lived on the land are in fact Egyptian from the Sinai and they have been there around Jerusalem only since the mid 1930s when Hitler encouraged them to seize the land and slaughter the Jews living there. Read up on Hitler and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

That being said how do you purpose to bring about the Unified Holy Land? What would the structure of it be and how do you suppose it would work with hostile Muslims attempting to impose Sharia Law? Islam is not conducive to self determination only dhimmitude and fuedal rule.
 
First a couple of things. There have always been Jews in Israel. The Arabs have been trying to push them out and exterminate them for centuries.

The first part of this is at least partially true. Even in the most desperate of times, there have always been at least a few Jewish people who stayed in the Holy Land. It's also important to keep in mind that the Arabs of that region are ALSO Semetic peoples. They have more in common with the Jewish people than they do in contrast.

The second part of this is utter and complete horseshit. It's angry Zionist propaganda and isn't even remotely true. The reality is during most of the last 1000 years, it was the Muslims who were accepting of Jews, not the Europeans. The Pogroms the Jews faced in Europe led to mass killings, humiliations, and a general state of less than human status. In contrast, the Ottoman Empire was one of the few safe places on Earth for Jewish people.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_the_Ottoman_Empire

You've been sold a bill of goods. CAMERA, AIPAC and the Anti Defamation league have been lying to Americans about the history of Israeli Apartheid all my life. Creating the myth of an "endless, intractable" conflict helps keep Americans hating Arabs/Muslims and blaming them for the Mid East Conflict. The truth of the matter is, a great many Arab and Muslim leaders going all the way back to Saladin were quite friendly with Jewish people, and often favored them over the combative and violent European Christians.

The Roman Diaspora did not remove all the Jews from the Holy Land, just the Zealots from the north kingdom. The Palestinian Arabs that claim to have lived on the land are in fact Egyptian from the Sinai and they have been there around Jerusalem only since the mid 1930s when Hitler encouraged them to seize the land and slaughter the Jews living there. Read up on Hitler and the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem.

Towards the end of the Ottoman Empire tensions did increase between Jews and Muslims. But we're not talking outright warfare, more like tribal conflicts. But the point is, you don't get to take someone ELSE's land. If the UN showed up at your door tommorow and said that your house now belonged to Canada, would you just pick up and leave without a fight? Of course not. And that makes you no different than the Palestinian "terrorists" you so despise.

I know what you're going to say. "But they attack civilians". They also attack the military. But you still call it "terrorism". In fact, when the Israelis are rampaging through the Palestinian internment camps, bulldozing homes and murdering people, the American media and pundits STILL call the Palestinians "terrorists" when they fight to protect their own homes.

That being said how do you purpose to bring about the Unified Holy Land? What would the structure of it be and how do you suppose it would work with hostile Muslims attempting to impose Sharia Law? .

I don't propose to bring about jack ****. No more money to Apartheid. Lets see them manage the upkeep on their Apartheid state without our welfare money and free bombs. They don't share our values and never have. It's not America's place to dictate terms to other countries with regard to their own sovereignty. But we have no business give money to an illegitimate state based on segregationist principals. Do you realize that Israel is the ONLY so called "Western Style Democracy" that bases it's national identity on race? Sure, the Arabs and Persians do it, but we also don't call them "democracies" now do we?

Now, what resolution would I call just? Easy. The Apartheid State of Israel is dissolved. The borders are opened and every last Palestinian man woman and child is repatriated. A Unified Holy Land is established using the borders of the original Greater Palestine territory. This would be contingent upon the Palestinian people agreeing to live under a liberal constitution and a democratic system.. You GROSSLY overestimate the number of Palestinians who want Sharia Law. And many of the ones who angrily claim they do would gladly trade it in for an end to Apartheid.

Islam is not conducive to self determination only dhimmitude and feudal rule

More Zionist propaganda. And again, complete nonsense. Apparently the democratic state of Indonesia (87% Muslim) does not exist on your map. Israeli Apartheid has forced Middle Eastern Muslims and Arabs hard to the right. Just as 9/11 did in America. Relieve that pressure, so Muslims don't feel dehumanized by the West, and people will moderate. We can't solve the terrorist problem unless moderate Muslims condemn it, and fight against it. But they're never going to get on board as long as the Western Powers support Israeli Apartheid. We talk about peace, but materially support the mass murder of Palestinian women and children in service to a segregationist system. As a result the Arab and Islamic worlds are understandably suspicious of our motives and hostile to our claims of promoting "freedom".
 
They need to take it up with the UN who created Israel. I've often thought that the Muzzies flew planes into the wrong buildings in NYC on my 41st birthday.
 
Ship all the Jews to New York and then bomb the **** out of the entire middle east.
 
So Steel, now you're antisemitic too?

You hate Jews, Christians, Conservatives, half of Americans, while you love Muslims, and anyone who's from Europe.

Got it.

Please, carry on.
 
Bulldoze all the settlements into the sea. It's the only way to be sure.

Reality No. 1 is Hamas controls Gaza, and Hamas only has one goal, the destruction of Israel. There will never be peace when their leaders only reason for being is the death of all Jews.



Palestinian Children Wear Mock Suicide Belts in Bethlehem Parade


January 14, 2016 - In what can only be described as a celebration of violence and death, young Palestinian children participated in a Bethlehem parade last week by dressing up as armed terrorists, complete with mock suicide belts.

The parade marked the 51st anniversary of the first terrorist attack by Palestinian leader Mahmoud Abbas Fatah movement, and was attended by several high ranking Palestinian Authority officials.

Ofer Gendelman, Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu's official spokesman to the Arab media, called the event a glorification of terrorism aimed at encouraging a new generation of Palestinian youth to join the violence.

25sogax.jpg


http://www.israeltoday.co.il/NewsItem/tabid/178/nid/28144/Default.aspx
 
They need to take it up with the UN who created Israel. I've often thought that the Muzzies flew planes into the wrong buildings in NYC on my 41st birthday.

They have. Many, many, many times. Guess what country insists on maintaining the illegal occupation and Israeli Apartheid? Yep, that's the one.

The majority of the world's Zionists are not even Jews. They are American Evangelical Christians.

I find it interesting that none of the Pro Israel arguments made so far are logical or reasonable. Just a bunch of angry hate mongering. Could it be that the haters themselves KNOW they're supporting an immoral position? Me thinks they do.
 
So, where do we stop to determine whose land it is? Arabs have been there 1000's of years? Who was there before that?
 
Borders don't matter?

Not when they're arbitrary. Both sides have fair claim to the land. The British consulate said at the time of the vote that by arbitrarily dividing the land you'd end up with perpetual war. He was right.

I ask the same question I did above: if the UN suddenly decreed that your house belonged to Canada and demanded that you forfeit it, would you just leave without a fight? Because that is EXACTLY what the Partition Plan did to the Palestinians. Greater Palestine should have become one sovereign entity, and we wouldn't have a "middle east" crisis today. There would be no "Jijad" against the West.
 
Not when they're arbitrary. Both sides have fair claim to the land. The British consulate said at the time of the vote that by arbitrarily dividing the land you'd end up with perpetual war. He was right.

I ask the same question I did above: if the UN suddenly decreed that your house belonged to Canada and demanded that you forfeit it, would you just leave without a fight? Because that is EXACTLY what the Partition Plan did to the Palestinians. Greater Palestine should have become one sovereign entity, and we wouldn't have a "middle east" crisis today. There would be no "Jijad" against the West.

Yeah, that is the only reason we have jihad. Is that why the Ottoman empire joined the losing side of WWI?
 
I can tell, this is going to be ugly.

The short answer is NO. Israel is an illegal occupation because the Partition Plan was unlawful.




I draw your attention to the highlighted portion in section 2. The partition plan violated the Palestinians right to self determination by granting the lands they themselves had lived on for generations to another people. A people that had no legitimate right to claim said lands. That makes the founding of Israel flatly illegal. All the rest of this **** about "self defense" and "right to exist" is meaningless. They took something that didn't belong to them, and thieves have no property rights.

I know. I know. Now I get to hear about how I must have some problem with Jews. I do not. I have a problem with my country not living up to it's principles. "We hold these truths to be SELF EVIDENT that all men are CREATED EQUAL" That is our nation's creed. "Separate is INHERENTLY unequal". That is our nation's policy. Were we to apply it earnestly to Israel, we would be pushing for a ONE STATE solution and a UNIFIED HOLY LAND. So all of you people screaming "bigot" and "antisemite" at the top of your lungs at anyone opposing Israeli Apartheid, you yourselves are fundamentally Un-American.

what a bunch of nonsense. Having a border and owning land is now deemed un-American?

Is locking my door at night un-American? What if my lock stops somebody from coming in who wants to watch my TV?
 
what a bunch of nonsense. Having a border and owning land is now deemed un-American?

Greater Palestine had borders. Israelis owned land. The Partition plan TOOK LAND from the Palestinian people. And yes, that's un-American. We stopped forcing Native peoples to live on reservations back in the 1880s. If you are a Native American today, you have DUAL CITIZENSHIP. The Palesitinans were forced off the land they owned, and then disenfranchised altogether. They have NO citizenship anywhere. If you respect property rights so much, you should respect that of the Palestinian people who were driven from their ancestral homes at gun point. Again, the Israelis are thieves. Thieves have no property rights.
 
Mandatory Palestine was a creation of British colonialism......why do you favor the results of an evil colonialist empire over the return of the unjustly exiled, original inhabitants of the Kingdom of Israel?

And why is Zionism a dirty word?
 
wow. SV thumps his chest over this thread? the thread where his points are duller than usual?

http://www.indaweb.com/oil/editorialopinion/tzemach.news.service01l.htm

The History and Meaning of "Palestine" and "Palestinians"

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab nation . . . Palestine is a name the Romans gave to Eretz Yisrael with the express purpose of infuriating the Jews . . . . Why should we use the spiteful name meant to humiliate us?

The British chose to call the land they mandated Palestine, and the Arabs picked it up as their nation's supposed ancient name, though they couldn't even pronounce it correctly and turned it into Falastin a fictional entity." — Golda Meir quoted by Sarah Honig, Jerusalem Post, 25 November 1995

Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today . . . No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. — from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily, 11 October 2000

From the end of the Jewish state in antiquity to the beginning of British rule, the area now designated by the name Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries . . . . — Professor Bernard Lewis, Commentary Magazine, January 1975

Talk and writing about Israel and the Middle East feature the nouns "Palestine" and Palestinian", and the phrases "Palestinian territory" and even "Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory". All too often, these terms are used with regard to their historical or geographical meaning, so that the usage creates illusions rather than clarifies reality.

What Does "Palestine" Mean?

It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection ... with Arabia or Arabs.


The word itself derives from "Peleshet", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant "Sea Peoples" who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it "Palastina".

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina" derived from the Peleshet.

How Did the Land of Israel Become "Palestine"?

In the First Century CE, the Romans crushed the independent kingdom of Judea. After the failed rebellion of Bar Kokhba in the Second Century CE, the Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina.

The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived still alive and free left the devastated country, but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land. There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.

The History of Palestine

Thousands of years before the Romans invented "Palastina" the land had been known as "Canaan". The Canaanites had many tiny city-states, each one at times independent and at times a vassal of an Egyptian or Hittite king. The Canaanites never united into a state.

After the Exodus from Egypt — probably in the Thirteenth Century BCE but perhaps earlier — the Children of Israel settled in the land of Canaan. There they formed first a tribal confederation, and then the Biblical kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and the post-Biblical kingdom of Judea.

Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River.

From the beginning of history to this day, Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River. (In Biblical times, Ammon, Moab and Edom as well as Israel had land east of the Jordan, but they disappeared in antiquity and no other nation took their place until the British invented Trans-Jordan in the 1920s.)

After the Roman conquest of Judea, "Palastina" became a province of the pagan Roman Empire and then of the Christian Byzantine Empire, and very briefly of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire. In 638 CE, an Arab-Muslim Caliph took Palastina away from the Byzantine Empire and made it part of an Arab-Muslim Empire. The Arabs, who had no name of their own for this region, adopted the Greco-Roman name Palastina, that they pronounced "Falastin".

In that period, much of the mixed population of Palastina converted to Islam and adopted the Arabic language. They were subjects of a distant Caliph who ruled them from his capital, that was first in Damascus and later in Baghdad. They did not become a nation or an independent state, or develop a distinct society or culture.

In 1099, Christian Crusaders from Europe conquered Palestina-Falastin. After 1099, it was never again under Arab rule. The Christian Crusader kingdom was politically independent, but never developed a national identity. It remained a military outpost of Christian Europe, and lasted less than 100 years. Thereafter, Palestine was joined to Syria as a subject province first of the Mameluks, ethnically mixed slave-warriors whose center was in Egypt, and then of the Ottoman Turks, whose capital was in Istanbul.

During the First World War, the British took Palestine from the Ottoman Turks. At the end of the war, the Ottoman Empire collapsed and among its subject provinces "Palestine" was assigned to the British, to govern temporarily as a mandate from the League of Nations.

The Jewish National Home

Travellers to Palestine from the Western world left records of what they saw there. The theme throughout their reports is dismal: The land was empty, neglected, abandoned, desolate, fallen into ruins

Nothing there [Jerusalem] to be seen but a little of the old walls which is yet remaining and all the rest is grass, moss and weeds. — English pilgrim in 1590

The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is of a body of population — British consul in 1857

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] — not for 30 miles in either direction. . . . One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings.

For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee . . . Nazareth is forlorn . . . Jericho lies a moldering ruin . . . Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation . . . untenanted by any living creature . . . .

A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds . . a silent, mournful expanse . . . a desolation . . . . We never saw a human being on the whole route . . . . Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country . . . .

Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes . . . desolate and unlovely . . . . — Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, 1867

Their [the Jews] labors created newer and better conditions and opportunities

The restoration of the "desolate and unlovely" land began in the latter half of the Nineteenth Century with the first Jewish pioneers. Their labors created newer and better conditions and opportunities, which in turn attracted migrants from many parts of the Middle East, both Arabs and others.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917, confirmed by the League of Nations Mandate, commited the British Government to the principle that "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish National Home, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object. . . . " It was specified both that this area be open to "close Jewish settlement" and that the rights of all inhabitants already in the country be preserved and protected.

Mandate Palestine originally included all of what is now Jordan, as well as all of what is now Israel, and the territories between them. However, when Great Britain's protégé Emir Abdullah was forced to leave the ancestral Hashemite domain in Arabia, the British created a realm for him that included all of Manfate Palestine east of the Jordan River. There was no traditional or historic Arab name for this land, so it was called after the river: first Trans-Jordan and later Jordan.

By this political act, that violated the conditions of the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate, the British cut more than 75 percent out of the Jewish National Home. No Jew has ever been permitted to reside in Trans-Jordan/Jordan.

Less than 25 percent then remained of Mandate Palestine, and even in this remnant, the British violated the Balfour and Mandate requirements for a "Jewish National Home" and for "close Jewish settlement". They progressively restricted where Jews could buy land, where they could live, build, farm or work.

After the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel was finally able to settle some small part of those lands from which the Jews had been debarred by the British. Successive British governments regularly condemn their settlement as "illegal". In truth, it was the British who had acted illegally in banning Jews from these parts of the Jewish National Home.

Who Is A Palestinian?

During the period of the Mandate, it was the Jewish population that was known as "Palestinians" including those who served in the British Army in World War II.

Jews who might have developed the empty lands of 'Palestine' ... instead died in the gas chambers of Europe

British policy was to curtail their numbers and progressively limit Jewish immigration. By 1939, the White Paper virtually put an end to admission of Jews to Palestine. This policy was imposed the most stringently at the very time this Home was most desperately needed — after the rise of Nazi power in Europe. Jews who might have developed the empty lands of Palestine and left progeny there, instead died in the gas chambers of Europe or in the seas they were trying to cross to the Promised Land.

At the same time that the British slammed the gates on Jews, they permitted or ignored massive illegal immigration into Western Palestine from Arab countries Jordan, Syria, Egypt, North Africa. In 1939, Winston Churchill noted that "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied . . . ." Exact population statistics may be problematic, but it seems that by 1947 the number of Arabs west of the Jordan River was approximately triple of what it had been in 1900.

The current myth is that these Arabs were long established in Palestine, until the Jews came and "displaced" them. The fact is, that recent Arab immigration into Palestine "displaced" the Jews. That the massive increase in Arab population was very recent is attested by the ruling of the United Nations: That any Arab who had lived in Palestine for two years and then left in 1948 qualifies as a "Palestinian refugees".

Casual use of population statistics for Jews and Arabs in Palestine rarely consider how the proportions came to be. One factor was the British policy of keeping out Jews while bringing in Arabs. Another factor was the violence used to kill or drive out Jews even where they had been long established.

For one example: The Jewish connection with Hebron goes back to Abraham, and there has been an Israelite/Jewish community there since Joshua long before it was King David's first capital. In 1929, Arab rioters with the passive consent of the British — killed or drove out virtually the entire Jewish community.

It is now often proposed as a principle of international law and morality that all places that the British and the Arabs rendered Judenrein must forever remain so.

For another example: In 1948, Trans-Jordan seized much of Judea and Samaria (which they called The West Bank) and East Jerusalem and the Old City. They killed or drove out every Jew.

It is now often proposed as a principle of international law and morality that all places that the British and the Arabs rendered Judenrein must forever remain so. In contrast, Israel eventually allotted 17 percent of Mandate Palestine has a large and growing population of Arab citizens.

From Palestine To Israel

What was to become of "Palestine" after the Mandate? This question was taken up by various British and international commissions and other bodies, culminating with the United Nations in 1947. During the various deliberations, Arab officials, spokesmen and writers expressed their views on "Palestine".

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." — Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not" — Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." — Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956

By 1948, the Arabs had still not yet discovered their ancient nation of Falastin. When they were offered half of Palestine west of the Jordan River for a state, the offer was violently rejected. Six Arab states launched a war of annihilation against the nascent State of Israel. Their purpose was not to establish an independent Falastin. Their aim was to partition western Palestine amongst themselves.

They did not succeed in killing Israel, but Trans-Jordan succeeded in taking Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and East Jerusalem, killing or driving out all the Jews who had lived in those places, and banning Jews of all nations from Jewish holy places. Egypt succeeded in taking the Gaza Strip. These two Arab states held these lands until 1967. Then they launched another war of annihilation against Israel, and in consequence lost the lands they had taken by war in 1948.

During those 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrendar those lands to make up an independent state of Falastin. The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it, much less demanded it.

Finally, in 1964, the Palestine Liberation Movement was founded. Ahmed Shukairy, who less than 10 years earlier had denied the existence of Palestine, was its first chairman. Its charter proclaimed its sole purpose to be the destruction of Israel. To that end it helped to precipitate the Arab attack on Israel in 1967.

The outcome of that attack then inspired an alteration in public rhetoric. As propaganda, it sounds better to speak of the liberation of Falastin than of the destruction of Israel. Much of the world, governments and media and public opinion, accept virtually without question of serious analysis the new-sprung myth of an Arab nation of Falastin, whose territory is unlawfully occupied by the Jews.

Since the end of World War I, the Arabs of the Middle East and North Africa have been given independent states in 99.5 percent of the land they claimed. Lord Balfour once expressed his hope that when the Arabs had been given so much, they would "not begrudge" the Jews the "little notch" promised to them.


[Note: Some of the material cited above is drawn from the book From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters.]


-------------

essentially the land was desolate and barren. much like the inside of a libtard's head.
when the israelis made this inhabitable, the muzzies wanted it back.
 
wow. SV thumps his chest over this thread? the thread where his points are duller than usual?

http://www.indaweb.com/oil/editorialopinion/tzemach.news.service01l.htm

The History and Meaning of "Palestine" and "Palestinians"

"There is no such thing as a Palestinian Arab nation . . . Palestine is a name the Romans gave to Eretz Yisrael with the express purpose of infuriating the Jews . . . . Why should we use the spiteful name meant to humiliate us?

The British chose to call the land they mandated Palestine, and the Arabs picked it up as their nation's supposed ancient name, though they couldn't even pronounce it correctly and turned it into Falastin a fictional entity." — Golda Meir quoted by Sarah Honig, Jerusalem Post, 25 November 1995

Palestine has never existed . . . as an autonomous entity. There is no language known as Palestinian. There is no distinct Palestinian culture. There has never been a land known as Palestine governed by Palestinians. Palestinians are Arabs, indistinguishable from Jordanians (another recent invention), Syrians, Lebanese, Iraqis, etc.

Keep in mind that the Arabs control 99.9 percent of the Middle East lands. Israel represents one-tenth of one percent of the landmass. But that's too much for the Arabs. They want it all. And that is ultimately what the fighting in Israel is about today . . . No matter how many land concessions the Israelis make, it will never be enough. — from "Myths of the Middle East", Joseph Farah, Arab-American editor and journalist, WorldNetDaily, 11 October 2000

From the end of the Jewish state in antiquity to the beginning of British rule, the area now designated by the name Palestine was not a country and had no frontiers, only administrative boundaries . . . . — Professor Bernard Lewis, Commentary Magazine, January 1975

Talk and writing about Israel and the Middle East feature the nouns "Palestine" and Palestinian", and the phrases "Palestinian territory" and even "Israeli-occupied Palestinian territory". All too often, these terms are used with regard to their historical or geographical meaning, so that the usage creates illusions rather than clarifies reality.

What Does "Palestine" Mean?

It has never been the name of a nation or state. It is a geographical term, used to designate the region at those times in history when there is no nation or state there.

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection ... with Arabia or Arabs.


The word itself derives from "Peleshet", a name that appears frequently in the Bible and has come into English as "Philistine". The name began to be used in the Thirteenth Century BCE, for a wave of migrant "Sea Peoples" who came from the area of the Aegean Sea and the Greek Islands and settled on the southern coast of the land of Canaan. There they established five independent city-states (including Gaza) on a narrow strip of land known as Philistia. The Greeks and Romans called it "Palastina".

The Philistines were not Arabs, they were not Semites. They had no connection, ethnic, linguistic or historical with Arabia or Arabs. The name "Falastin" that Arabs today use for "Palestine" is not an Arabic name. It is the Arab pronunciation of the Greco-Roman "Palastina" derived from the Peleshet.

How Did the Land of Israel Become "Palestine"?

In the First Century CE, the Romans crushed the independent kingdom of Judea. After the failed rebellion of Bar Kokhba in the Second Century CE, the Roman Emperor Hadrian determined to wipe out the identity of Israel-Judah-Judea. Therefore, he took the name Palastina and imposed it on all the Land of Israel. At the same time, he changed the name of Jerusalem to Aelia Capitolina.

The Romans killed many Jews and sold many more in slavery. Some of those who survived still alive and free left the devastated country, but there was never a complete abandonment of the Land. There was never a time when there were not Jews and Jewish communities, though the size and conditions of those communities fluctuated greatly.

The History of Palestine

Thousands of years before the Romans invented "Palastina" the land had been known as "Canaan". The Canaanites had many tiny city-states, each one at times independent and at times a vassal of an Egyptian or Hittite king. The Canaanites never united into a state.

After the Exodus from Egypt — probably in the Thirteenth Century BCE but perhaps earlier — the Children of Israel settled in the land of Canaan. There they formed first a tribal confederation, and then the Biblical kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and the post-Biblical kingdom of Judea.

Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River.

From the beginning of history to this day, Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River. (In Biblical times, Ammon, Moab and Edom as well as Israel had land east of the Jordan, but they disappeared in antiquity and no other nation took their place until the British invented Trans-Jordan in the 1920s.)

After the Roman conquest of Judea, "Palastina" became a province of the pagan Roman Empire and then of the Christian Byzantine Empire, and very briefly of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire. In 638 CE, an Arab-Muslim Caliph took Palastina away from the Byzantine Empire and made it part of an Arab-Muslim Empire. The Arabs, who had no name of their own for this region, adopted the Greco-Roman name Palastina, that they pronounced "Falastin".

In that period, much of the mixed population of Palastina converted to Islam and adopted the Arabic language. They were subjects of a distant Caliph who ruled them from his capital, that was first in Damascus and later in Baghdad. They did not become a nation or an independent state, or develop a distinct society or culture.

In 1099, Christian Crusaders from Europe conquered Palestina-Falastin. After 1099, it was never again under Arab rule. The Christian Crusader kingdom was politically independent, but never developed a national identity. It remained a military outpost of Christian Europe, and lasted less than 100 years. Thereafter, Palestine was joined to Syria as a subject province first of the Mameluks, ethnically mixed slave-warriors whose center was in Egypt, and then of the Ottoman Turks, whose capital was in Istanbul.

During the First World War, the British took Palestine from the Ottoman Turks. At the end of the war, the Ottoman Empire collapsed and among its subject provinces "Palestine" was assigned to the British, to govern temporarily as a mandate from the League of Nations.

The Jewish National Home

Travellers to Palestine from the Western world left records of what they saw there. The theme throughout their reports is dismal: The land was empty, neglected, abandoned, desolate, fallen into ruins

Nothing there [Jerusalem] to be seen but a little of the old walls which is yet remaining and all the rest is grass, moss and weeds. — English pilgrim in 1590

The country is in a considerable degree empty of inhabitants and therefore its greatest need is of a body of population — British consul in 1857

There is not a solitary village throughout its whole extent [valley of Jezreel] — not for 30 miles in either direction. . . . One may ride 10 miles hereabouts and not see 10 human beings.

For the sort of solitude to make one dreary, come to Galilee . . . Nazareth is forlorn . . . Jericho lies a moldering ruin . . . Bethlehem and Bethany, in their poverty and humiliation . . . untenanted by any living creature . . . .

A desolate country whose soil is rich enough, but is given over wholly to weeds . . a silent, mournful expanse . . . a desolation . . . . We never saw a human being on the whole route . . . . Hardly a tree or shrub anywhere. Even the olive tree and the cactus, those fast friends of a worthless soil, had almost deserted the country . . . .

Palestine sits in sackcloth and ashes . . . desolate and unlovely . . . . — Mark Twain, The Innocents Abroad, 1867

Their [the Jews] labors created newer and better conditions and opportunities

The restoration of the "desolate and unlovely" land began in the latter half of the Nineteenth Century with the first Jewish pioneers. Their labors created newer and better conditions and opportunities, which in turn attracted migrants from many parts of the Middle East, both Arabs and others.

The Balfour Declaration of 1917, confirmed by the League of Nations Mandate, commited the British Government to the principle that "His Majesty's government view with favour the establishment in Palestine of a Jewish National Home, and will use their best endeavors to facilitate the achievement of this object. . . . " It was specified both that this area be open to "close Jewish settlement" and that the rights of all inhabitants already in the country be preserved and protected.

Mandate Palestine originally included all of what is now Jordan, as well as all of what is now Israel, and the territories between them. However, when Great Britain's protégé Emir Abdullah was forced to leave the ancestral Hashemite domain in Arabia, the British created a realm for him that included all of Manfate Palestine east of the Jordan River. There was no traditional or historic Arab name for this land, so it was called after the river: first Trans-Jordan and later Jordan.

By this political act, that violated the conditions of the Balfour Declaration and the Mandate, the British cut more than 75 percent out of the Jewish National Home. No Jew has ever been permitted to reside in Trans-Jordan/Jordan.

Less than 25 percent then remained of Mandate Palestine, and even in this remnant, the British violated the Balfour and Mandate requirements for a "Jewish National Home" and for "close Jewish settlement". They progressively restricted where Jews could buy land, where they could live, build, farm or work.

After the Six-Day War in 1967, Israel was finally able to settle some small part of those lands from which the Jews had been debarred by the British. Successive British governments regularly condemn their settlement as "illegal". In truth, it was the British who had acted illegally in banning Jews from these parts of the Jewish National Home.

Who Is A Palestinian?

During the period of the Mandate, it was the Jewish population that was known as "Palestinians" including those who served in the British Army in World War II.

Jews who might have developed the empty lands of 'Palestine' ... instead died in the gas chambers of Europe

British policy was to curtail their numbers and progressively limit Jewish immigration. By 1939, the White Paper virtually put an end to admission of Jews to Palestine. This policy was imposed the most stringently at the very time this Home was most desperately needed — after the rise of Nazi power in Europe. Jews who might have developed the empty lands of Palestine and left progeny there, instead died in the gas chambers of Europe or in the seas they were trying to cross to the Promised Land.

At the same time that the British slammed the gates on Jews, they permitted or ignored massive illegal immigration into Western Palestine from Arab countries Jordan, Syria, Egypt, North Africa. In 1939, Winston Churchill noted that "So far from being persecuted, the Arabs have crowded into the country and multiplied . . . ." Exact population statistics may be problematic, but it seems that by 1947 the number of Arabs west of the Jordan River was approximately triple of what it had been in 1900.

The current myth is that these Arabs were long established in Palestine, until the Jews came and "displaced" them. The fact is, that recent Arab immigration into Palestine "displaced" the Jews. That the massive increase in Arab population was very recent is attested by the ruling of the United Nations: That any Arab who had lived in Palestine for two years and then left in 1948 qualifies as a "Palestinian refugees".

Casual use of population statistics for Jews and Arabs in Palestine rarely consider how the proportions came to be. One factor was the British policy of keeping out Jews while bringing in Arabs. Another factor was the violence used to kill or drive out Jews even where they had been long established.

For one example: The Jewish connection with Hebron goes back to Abraham, and there has been an Israelite/Jewish community there since Joshua long before it was King David's first capital. In 1929, Arab rioters with the passive consent of the British — killed or drove out virtually the entire Jewish community.

It is now often proposed as a principle of international law and morality that all places that the British and the Arabs rendered Judenrein must forever remain so.

For another example: In 1948, Trans-Jordan seized much of Judea and Samaria (which they called The West Bank) and East Jerusalem and the Old City. They killed or drove out every Jew.

It is now often proposed as a principle of international law and morality that all places that the British and the Arabs rendered Judenrein must forever remain so. In contrast, Israel eventually allotted 17 percent of Mandate Palestine has a large and growing population of Arab citizens.

From Palestine To Israel

What was to become of "Palestine" after the Mandate? This question was taken up by various British and international commissions and other bodies, culminating with the United Nations in 1947. During the various deliberations, Arab officials, spokesmen and writers expressed their views on "Palestine".

"There is no such country as Palestine. 'Palestine' is a term the Zionists invented. . . . Our country was for centuries part of Syria. 'Palestine' is alien to us. It is the Zionists who introduced it." — Local Arab leader to British Peel Commission, 1937

"There is no such thing as Palestine in history, absolutely not" — Professor Philip Hitti, Arab historian to Anglo-American Committee of Inquiry, 1946

"It is common knowledge that Palestine is nothing but southern Syria." — Ahmed Shukairy, United Nations Security Council, 1956

By 1948, the Arabs had still not yet discovered their ancient nation of Falastin. When they were offered half of Palestine west of the Jordan River for a state, the offer was violently rejected. Six Arab states launched a war of annihilation against the nascent State of Israel. Their purpose was not to establish an independent Falastin. Their aim was to partition western Palestine amongst themselves.

They did not succeed in killing Israel, but Trans-Jordan succeeded in taking Judea and Samaria (West Bank) and East Jerusalem, killing or driving out all the Jews who had lived in those places, and banning Jews of all nations from Jewish holy places. Egypt succeeded in taking the Gaza Strip. These two Arab states held these lands until 1967. Then they launched another war of annihilation against Israel, and in consequence lost the lands they had taken by war in 1948.

During those 19 years, 1948-1967, Jordan and Egypt never offered to surrendar those lands to make up an independent state of Falastin. The "Palestinians" never sought it. Nobody in the world ever suggested it, much less demanded it.

Finally, in 1964, the Palestine Liberation Movement was founded. Ahmed Shukairy, who less than 10 years earlier had denied the existence of Palestine, was its first chairman. Its charter proclaimed its sole purpose to be the destruction of Israel. To that end it helped to precipitate the Arab attack on Israel in 1967.

The outcome of that attack then inspired an alteration in public rhetoric. As propaganda, it sounds better to speak of the liberation of Falastin than of the destruction of Israel. Much of the world, governments and media and public opinion, accept virtually without question of serious analysis the new-sprung myth of an Arab nation of Falastin, whose territory is unlawfully occupied by the Jews.

Since the end of World War I, the Arabs of the Middle East and North Africa have been given independent states in 99.5 percent of the land they claimed. Lord Balfour once expressed his hope that when the Arabs had been given so much, they would "not begrudge" the Jews the "little notch" promised to them.


[Note: Some of the material cited above is drawn from the book From Time Immemorial by Joan Peters.]


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essentially the land was desolate and barren. much like the inside of a libtard's head.
when the israelis made this inhabitable, the muzzies wanted it back.

You just made my point. You said nothing original in your own words. You just posted some long *** pro-Zionist diatribe.

BECAUSE YOU DON'T BELIEVE A WORD OF IT SUPE
. That's why you can't articulate your views in your own words.

Instead of giving me somebody else's view of it, why not post your own thoughts?

The Partition Plan of 1947 was ILLEGAL because it violated the UN's charter. That is a fact, not my opinion. None of you have bothered to refute it.

The ethnic cleansing of the Palestinians during the 1948 war, and the forced internment in refugee camps is also illegal for the same reason.

The United States stopped forcing Native people to live on reservations back in the 1880's.

If Israel's sovereignty is illegitimate and it's racial policies of segregation run counter to our own, why should American tax dollars and military resources be going to support her?

Try posting your own words this time.
 
1947, 1948 are recent compared to the history of that region.
i posted the article because it shows the vast religious history of that area.

which, if you had read, you'd have been enlightened.

here...read this...

The History of Palestine

Thousands of years before the Romans invented "Palastina" the land had been known as "Canaan". The Canaanites had many tiny city-states, each one at times independent and at times a vassal of an Egyptian or Hittite king. The Canaanites never united into a state.

After the Exodus from Egypt — probably in the Thirteenth Century BCE but perhaps earlier — the Children of Israel settled in the land of Canaan. There they formed first a tribal confederation, and then the Biblical kingdoms of Israel and Judah, and the post-Biblical kingdom of Judea.

Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River.

From the beginning of history to this day, Israel-Judah-Judea has the only united, independent, sovereign nation-state that ever existed in "Palestine" west of the Jordan River. (In Biblical times, Ammon, Moab and Edom as well as Israel had land east of the Jordan, but they disappeared in antiquity and no other nation took their place until the British invented Trans-Jordan in the 1920s.)

After the Roman conquest of Judea, "Palastina" became a province of the pagan Roman Empire and then of the Christian Byzantine Empire, and very briefly of the Zoroastrian Persian Empire. In 638 CE, an Arab-Muslim Caliph took Palastina away from the Byzantine Empire and made it part of an Arab-Muslim Empire. The Arabs, who had no name of their own for this region, adopted the Greco-Roman name Palastina, that they pronounced "Falastin".

In that period, much of the mixed population of Palastina converted to Islam and adopted the Arabic language. They were subjects of a distant Caliph who ruled them from his capital, that was first in Damascus and later in Baghdad. They did not become a nation or an independent state, or develop a distinct society or culture.

In 1099, Christian Crusaders from Europe conquered Palestina-Falastin. After 1099, it was never again under Arab rule. The Christian Crusader kingdom was politically independent, but never developed a national identity. It remained a military outpost of Christian Europe, and lasted less than 100 years. Thereafter, Palestine was joined to Syria as a subject province first of the Mameluks, ethnically mixed slave-warriors whose center was in Egypt, and then of the Ottoman Turks, whose capital was in Istanbul.
 
so while you say that this land should be given back to the original owners, you have to agree after reading it's history that that is just what has happened.
 
so while you say that this land should be given back to the original owners, you have to agree after reading it's history that that is just what has happened.

First of all, I said no such thing. I have always said that the land should be free and undivided. Just like America. So your point is moot.

Second, by your logic any Native American who kills you and takes everything you own is full morally justified. Do you really believe that?

Ethnic cleansing is wrong. But you seem absolutely fine with it. Even though that act of evil has precipitated the entire Jihadi movement, up to and including the attacks of 9/11.

You seem unable to express yourself in your own words, which furthers my point that you have little actual conviction that the things you say are true.
 
The issue is that
a. All of that region is made up countries which were created when briton withdrew and done so with the purpose of intentionally creating conflict within the land so the people wouldnt unify and create strong nations... look at iraq... Its parts of 3 cultures mashed together that has never gotten along..

B. The palistinianes are being used as pawns to attack Israel by third party countries who refused to help them as refugees and forced them into an unenviable position they are in now...

C. The whole region has been subjegated time and again through lost wars.. They really have no claim to anything at this point... Most cant even keep a government in place long enough to be relevant in the international community save for the ones that fall under a dictatorship..

Id feel some pity for the plight of the palestinians if this didnt all stem from a half dozen failed wars or military entanglements with israel that they were the aggressor in... Hell egypt ought to be glad they didnt keep half that country too... The bottom line is the area that was siezed has military significance for attacking israel, so they wont completely give it back....
 
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