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Greece


Twenty percent of the votes have now been counted, and the no side is holding onto a solid lead -- with over 60%, against less than 40% for the yes side.


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Athenians watching referendum exit poll results in a cafe near Syntagma square

http://www.theguardian.com/business...o-bailout-live#block-55996b9be4b00bdd27707dcb
 
Greeks are not having it...
Official projection shows 'no' winning in Greek referendum


ATHENS, Greece — Greece faced an uncharted future as its interior ministry predicted Sunday that more than 60 percent of voters in a hastily called referendum had rejected creditors' demands for more austerity in exchange for rescue loans.

Prime Minister Alexis Tsipras, who was gambling the future of his 5-month-old left-wing government on the vote, insisted that a "no" vote would strengthen his hand to negotiate a better deal with creditors, while a "yes" result would mean capitulating to their harsh demands.

The opposition has accused Tsipras of jeopardizing the country's membership in the 19-nation club that uses the euro and said a "yes" vote was about keeping the common currency.

With about a quarter of the votes counted Sunday evening, the Interior Ministry issued an official projection that the "no" side would win handily.

The vote was held amid banking restrictions imposed last Monday to halt a bank run, with Greeks queuing up at ATMs across the country to withdraw a maximum 60 euros per day. Banks have been shut all week, and it is uncertain when they will reopen.

Governing left-wing Syriza party Eurodeputy Dimitris Papadimoulis said that "Greek people are proving they want to remain in Europe" as equal members "and not as a debt colony." The referendum was Greece's first in 41 years.

Papadimoulis said the country should wait for the official and final results of Sunday's referendum, and called on his fellow countrymen to remain calm.

Minister of State Nikos Papas, speaking on Alpha television, said it would be "wrong to link a 'no' result to an exit from the eurozone. If a 'no' prevails that will help us get a better agreement."

Tsipras' high-stakes brinkmanship with lenders from the eurozone countries and the International Monetary Fund resulted in Greece defaulting on its debts this week and shutting down its banks to avoid their collapse. He called the referendum last weekend, giving both sides just a week to campaign.

"Today, democracy is defeating fear ... I am very optimistic," Tsipras said earlier in the day after voting in in Athens.

European officials have openly urged Greeks to vote against the government's recommendation.

"I hope people say 'yes,'" European Parliament President Martin Schulz told German public radio. "If after the referendum, the majority is a 'no,' they will have to introduce another currency because the euro will no longer be available for a means of payment."

As voters flocked to polling stations, large lines once again formed at ATMs.

Daniel Tsangaridis, a 35-year-old Athens resident, said he didn't expect banks to reopen soon, despite a government pledge that they would do so Tuesday.

"It's not going to happen in the next 48 hours," he said. "If the situation improves and we can have a deal, then the banks will open."

Tsipras' left-wing Syriza party came to power in January after a six-year recession. Since then, the standoff between Athens and its international lenders has grown more bitter, and early signs of some economic growth and recovering employment in Greece have disappeared.

The debt-wracked nation also suffered repeated ratings downgrades and lost access to billions of euros after its existing bailout deal expired last week.

Polls published Friday showed the two sides in a dead heat with an overwhelming majority — about 75 percent — wanting Greece to remain in the euro currency.

"Today, we Greeks decide on the fate of our country," conservative opposition leader Antonis Samaras said. "We vote 'yes' to Greece. We vote 'yes' to Europe."

The sense of urgency was palpable as Greeks struggled to decipher a convoluted referendum question after being bombarded with frenzied messages warning of the country's swiftly approaching financial collapse.

Neither result on Sunday, however, would lead to a clear answer on what Greece should do about its overstretched finances.

Greece is no longer in a bailout program since its previous package expired last Tuesday. It now has to negotiate a new one with its creditors that involves even more money for the government and banks and new economic austerity measures.

Despite the Greek government's assertion that a "no" vote will not lead to a euro exit, most experts agree it would open up more uncertain financial outcomes.

A number of European politicians, including Jeroen Dijsselbloem, the top eurozone official, have said a "no" vote would jeopardize Greece's place in the 19-nation eurozone. Investors are also likely to believe a "no" win increases the chance of a so-called "Grexit," where Greece returns to its own old currency.

___

Online:

Official referendum website: http://www.referendum2015gov.gr/en/

___

Associated Press writers Elena Becatoros, Greg Katz, Iuliia Subbotovskaia and Eftehia Katsareas in Athens, Greece, and Pan Pylas in London contributed to this report.
 
I'm currently restructuring my portfolio to endure this bullsh1t.

The U.S. Dollar and Treasuries will be my best friends, I suppose.
 
The End of Civilization

Greeks can’t use iTunes, the App Store, PayPal and more thanks to the financial crisis

http://thenextweb.com/apple/2015/07/04/all-greek-to-me/

GOOD! If you cannot pay back your loans then you don't deserve to have cool ****.

One of my best friends in college is 2nd generation Greek. His dad moved here and started a restaurant and did pretty well. Bobby took over the restaurant and works his tail off. I asked him how Greece could be in such bad shape since every Greek I knew was hard working and fairly intelligent. He said we all have great CPA's and pay almost nothing in taxes, we all hate taxes and will find any way to aviod them. Just his take.
 
Turns out Tibs has become a master baiter and we're a school of flounder. Shame I remembered him as kinda cool.
Not sure why wacking off as often as I can makes me less cool than before, but if it suits you better, I'll try to cut back a little.

As for Bernie, all I'm saying he's more appealing than Hillary, if you're not inclined to choose from one of the 17 clowns the GOP is lining up. He's got his warts, and I'm sure he'll be demonized, like our main man Vader just did, but I'd still take him over Hillary on the D's side.

Spike - regarding Greece, I'm getting increasingly nervous, we leave on Wed, too late to cancel. This may either be the vacation from hell, or it'll be awesome cause there'll be barely anyone there to hog the sweet spots on the beach. As long as we can eat...we'lll be fine. If all else fails, we can catch fish out of the sea, correct? ;)
 
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I'm currently restructuring my portfolio to endure this bullsh1t.

The U.S. Dollar and Treasuries will be my best friends, I suppose.

What a great time to note your brilliant portfolio management skills by becoming a contributor.
 
Not sure why wacking off as often as I can makes me less cool than before, but if it suits you better, I'll try to cut back a little.

As for Bernie, all I'm saying he's more appealing than Hillary, if you're not inclined to choose from one of the 17 clowns the GOP is lining up. He's got his warts, and I'm sure he'll be demonized, like our main man Vader just did, but I'd still take him over Hillary on the D's side.

Spike - regarding Greece, I'm getting increasingly nervous, we leave on Wed, too late to cancel. This may either be the vacation from hell, or it'll be awesome cause there'll be barely anyone there to hog the sweet spots on the beach. As long as we can eat...we'lll be fine. If all else fails, we can catch fish out of the sea, correct? ;)

It probably wouldn't hurt to take some US Dollars along...
 
Seen on Facebook. Good article. It did not have a link.

Craig Kelly
THE GREEK TRAGEDY: MASSIVE SOCIALIST FAILURE

Make no mistake, the classic failure of Socialism is playing out in Greece right now.

Put simply, Greece’s problem is that it has run out of "other people's money".

No nation can continue to operate when almost 80% of the Government's budget goes to pay pensions and state wages - and where 10% of the nation’s entire economic output comprises pensions alone.

For too long Greece has headed down a ruinous political path of anti-market, collectivist and socialist policies - that have only guaranteed today's impoverishment; all based on the nonsensical premise that there is such a thing as a "free lunch" and the delusion that Keynesian stimulus will save the day.

And with the poison of Socialism having taken hold, and the economy falling into a fiscal abyss, has resulted in a spiral of decline - whereby the public elects more and more extreme politicians, so it was no surprise that at the last election in Greece, 52% voted for either Communists or neo-Nazis.

And the danger is that Greece, with a 25% unemployment rate, a third of its people living below the poverty line, 300,000 with no electricity, ATM’s running out money, and limits placed on what people can withdraw from banks - could likely respond to the failure of extreme-left Syriza Party by electing an even more extreme government.

The only way this Greek tragedy can be addressed is firstly by identifying socialism as the culprit in this massive public failure.

Secondly, there must be a condemnation of socialism and the failed politicians who made the sweeping promises to dishout "free stuff" they could not afford - all while they peddled the proven failed system of socialism.

Thirdly, a recognition that by recently electing an even more leftist and socialist government, that such a vote has only sped up the path to collapse.

There is no painless way out.

But rather than just kicking the can down the road, it might be best for the Greeks to go back to their old currency, with all the hardship that will involve - and rediscover the virtues of sound money, balanced budgets and implement a regulatory system that attracts foreign capital and encourages domestic enterprise – and they produce and export themselves out of this mess.

For everyday they delay, it will only result in a much more painful remedy being foisted upon all down the track.

But ultimately, the real threat of this Greek tradegy is to the global economy, in that we squander yet another valuable lesson from someone else's massive Socialist failure - and that other nations and politicians currently pushing socialist agenda's, promising more "free stuff" paid for by "other people's money" (including Australia’s Labor Party) will not be deterred or even slowed in the slightest by Greece's collapse.
 
I guess the Greeks are finding out first hand about the parable of the oxcart. They are all trying to ride in the cart and the ox has been worked to death. It doesn't seem like they are learning anything from it either. They are taking no steps to build an actual economy or encourage people to get off the dole.
 
I guess the Greeks are finding out first hand about the parable of the oxcart. They are all trying to ride in the cart and the ox has been worked to death. It doesn't seem like they are learning anything from it either. They are taking no steps to build an actual economy or encourage people to get off the dole.
I read somewhere that you can retire and collect a government pension as young as 45.
 
I read somewhere that you can retire and collect a government pension as young as 45.

I have seen a lot of posts on line of people trying to blame Greece's woes on the subprime crash of 2008. I always ask them what the Greek economy is based on and how the subprime crash effected it. I generally get a goat eyed stare back.
 
Not sure why wacking off as often as I can makes me less cool than before, but if it suits you better, I'll try to cut back a little.

As for Bernie, all I'm saying he's more appealing than Hillary, if you're not inclined to choose from one of the 17 clowns the GOP is lining up. He's got his warts, and I'm sure he'll be demonized, like our main man Vader just did, but I'd still take him over Hillary on the D's side.

Spike - regarding Greece, I'm getting increasingly nervous, we leave on Wed, too late to cancel. This may either be the vacation from hell, or it'll be awesome cause there'll be barely anyone there to hog the sweet spots on the beach. As long as we can eat...we'lll be fine. If all else fails, we can catch fish out of the sea, correct? ;)

Exactly what I expected. You cloak the sins of your side but are all too eager to point out the sins of the other side. Nothing can invalidate Sanders in your eyes. He's a socialist, has weird views on women, and would put this country in line with Europe. I've been saying for years that the dems are nothing more than Socialists now they (and you) are proving it.
 
Exactly what I expected. You cloak the sins of your side but are all too eager to point out the sins of the other side. Nothing can invalidate Sanders in your eyes. He's a socialist, has weird views on women, and would put this country in line with Europe. I've been saying for years that the dems are nothing more than Socialists now they (and you) are proving it.

The US is in line with Europe.

The European Central Banks, including the ECB, the Bank of England, the Bank of France, and the Bundesbank can access hundreds of billions of USD without needing to seek US permission -- all from the Fed!


That ship sailed years ago, comrade!
 
Austrian economist Barbara Kolm from 2013. Someone in Europe gets it.

 
I think European nations needs to make an example of Greece. If they don;t others in debt will do the same. Italy is in bad shape. If Greece is off the hook, what will they demand?
 
I think European nations needs to make an example of Greece. If they don;t others in debt will do the same. Italy is in bad shape. If Greece is off the hook, what will they demand?

I agree with this. They told Greece 5 years ago to clean up corruption, fix their tax code, get more people back to work and stop the stupid handouts. They sat on their hands, did nothing and expect other countries to keep picking up the tab.

Cut 'em loose. Let them print their own money and go back to the Drachma. Keep the door open that once they get their issues solved, then can come back into the Euro if they want to.

I know people want to bad mouth the U.S. but we aren't CLOSE to the lax and free handouts and entitlement attitudes of Greece. And I don't think we'll ever be that way.
 
I agree with this. They told Greece 5 years ago to clean up corruption, fix their tax code, get more people back to work and stop the stupid handouts. They sat on their hands, did nothing and expect other countries to keep picking up the tab.

Cut 'em loose. Let them print their own money and go back to the Drachma. Keep the door open that once they get their issues solved, then can come back into the Euro if they want to.

I know people want to bad mouth the U.S. but we aren't CLOSE to the lax and free handouts and entitlement attitudes of Greece. And I don't think we'll ever be that way.

Greece should be a dire warning. The fact they the don't seem to care to me says let them sell their islands and assets, but in reality a humanitarian disaster could happen if their money becomes worthless. Those who live " pay check to pay check " on government hand outs will starve if the gravy train is halted for good. What will their poor people do? Likely riot or worse on a national scale. Then the rich will leave. In fact they are already doing so.

" A devastating brain drain is luring away the best and brightest of Greece’s workforce, several reports showed, with estimates varying between 180,000 and 200,000 well-educated citizens leaving the cash-strapped nation. "

http://www.marketwatch.com/story/greeces-scariest-deficit-has-nothing-to-do-with-money-2015-05-07

Although it won't happen, the best solution is for Greece to sell some or all of their 6,000 Islands ( 227 are inhabited ) to the creditors in exchange for a clean slate.
 
Sanders announced at the beginning of his speech that they drew the most people to a rally of any candidate this year.Sanders responded to Wisconsin Republicans who called him an extremist, “Let me just say a few words to my friends in the Republican Party about extremism.

When you deny the right of workers to come together in collective bargaining that’s extremism.

When you tell a woman that she can not control her own body, that’s extremism.

When you think a woman is a child and can’t purchase a contraceptive, that is extremism.

When you give tax breaks to billionaires and refuse to raise the minimum wage, that’s extremism.”

You know, those make for great bumper-stickers...but...

No Republican is trying to repeal the 1st amendment

No Republican is trying to deny anybody contraception (ahem, that'd be the ROMAN CATHOLIC CHURCH)
*additional note, Republicans oppose the Affordable Care Act's mandate of FREE contraception...not contraception as a whole

When you give across-the-board tax breaks, you give them to Billionaires too...can't avoid them getting the lion's share...they pay 90% of all taxes anyway!

The minimum wage...it is what it is...and let's be honest, if you're trying to raise a family on a minimum wage job...that's a YOU problem, not a societal one. Maybe you should be looking to get two jobs instead of one.
 
Food for thought: the amount of German debt forgiven after they destroyed Europe would be $1.3 trillion in current dollars, while Greek debt today is just $363 billion. Germany brought their own debt crisis on themselves, while Greece's was mainly created by the big banks.

In no way do I condone Greek politics over the past decades, nor do I agree with much of anything they're doing right now. The country is basically wack. 48% or so of the population simply doesn't pay their taxes. The level of social benefits and pensions are completely unrealistic. But, I doubt the EU and the rest of the world will stand by idly and let the Greek economy collapse. It's a country that needs to be saved from itself, from its politicians and from the international banking sector that has taken advantage. At the end of the day the Greeks themselves will need to face the music, be it austerity or revamped taxation practices. The consequence of not helping far outweight the cost of some sort of international assistance. Of course there's Putin lurking in the shadows, I'm sure the EU would be overjoyed if Russia stepped up to the plate at this stage.

Anyway, we're flying to Crete tomorrow with the wife and kids. I'll do my best to help local businesses, beer vendors in particular. :) If there's working wifi I'll send you guys a report from the ground.. if you don't hear from me soon...then it's been real and I hope the Steelers grab #7 this upcoming season! :)


And I'll leave you with this, it's funny to me to see so many scoff at the notion of government (taxpayer) bailouts, when our own government - far from a socialist one - seems to be so good at it!

THE GOVERNMENT AS INVESTOR
COMMITTED: $9.0 trillion
SPENT: $1.6 TRILLION
Includes direct investments in financial institutions, purchases of high-grade corporate debt and purchases of mortgage-backed securities issued by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae.

THE GOVERNMENT AS INSURER
COMMITTED: $1.7 trillion
SPENT: $330 BILLION
Includes insuring debt issued by financial institutions and guaranteeing poorly performing assets owned by banks and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

THE GOVERNMENT AS LENDER
COMMITTED: $1.4 trillion
SPENT: $528 BILLION
A significant expansion of the government's traditional overnight lending to banks, including extending terms to as many as 90 days and allowing borrowing by other financial institutions.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/02/04/business/20090205-bailout-totals-graphic.html?_r=0
 
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Anyway, we're flying to Crete tomorrow with the wife and kids. I'll do my best to help local businesses

check out the gold shop prices - buy me something - they serve you free Ouzo just for shopping

that's a tip
 
Food for thought: the amount of German debt forgiven after they destroyed Europe would be $1.3 trillion in current dollars, while Greek debt today is just $363 billion. Germany brought their own debt crisis on themselves, while Greece's was mainly created by the big banks.

In no way do I condone Greek politics over the past decades, nor do I agree with much of anything they're doing right now. The country is basically wack. 48% or so of the population simply doesn't pay their taxes. The level of social benefits and pensions are completely unrealistic. But, I doubt the EU and the rest of the world will stand by idly and let the Greek economy collapse. It's a country that needs to be saved from itself, from its politicians and from the international banking sector that has taken advantage. At the end of the day the Greeks themselves will need to face the music, be it austerity or revamped taxation practices. The consequence of not helping far outweight the cost of some sort of international assistance. Of course there's Putin lurking in the shadows, I'm sure the EU would be overjoyed if Russia stepped up to the plate at this stage.

Anyway, we're flying to Crete tomorrow with the wife and kids. I'll do my best to help local businesses, beer vendors in particular. :) If there's working wifi I'll send you guys a report from the ground.. if you don't hear from me soon...then it's been real and I hope the Steelers grab #7 this upcoming season! :)


And I'll leave you with this, it's funny to me to see so many scoff at the notion of government (taxpayer) bailouts, when our own government - far from a socialist one - seems to be so good at it!

THE GOVERNMENT AS INVESTOR
COMMITTED: $9.0 trillion
SPENT: $1.6 TRILLION
Includes direct investments in financial institutions, purchases of high-grade corporate debt and purchases of mortgage-backed securities issued by Fannie Mae, Freddie Mac and Ginnie Mae.

THE GOVERNMENT AS INSURER
COMMITTED: $1.7 trillion
SPENT: $330 BILLION
Includes insuring debt issued by financial institutions and guaranteeing poorly performing assets owned by banks and Fannie Mae and Freddie Mac.

THE GOVERNMENT AS LENDER
COMMITTED: $1.4 trillion
SPENT: $528 BILLION
A significant expansion of the government's traditional overnight lending to banks, including extending terms to as many as 90 days and allowing borrowing by other financial institutions.

http://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2009/02/04/business/20090205-bailout-totals-graphic.html?_r=0

I scoff at and dislike our government bailouts as well.

The rest of your post begs the question how do you help those who refuse to help themselves?
 
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