I just dont get the oline

[diver]

These are all uber athletes most of them are massively coachable. In my experience watching this team coached by Tomlin I recall Munchak taking raw talent that had underperformed and making it a strength. I don't recall any other position group where wow that looks like trouble and by Gane six you are going. You know what maybe not the strength of the team but they are top 15 in league. If you recall an instant I'd love to hear it.

You coach. Coachable and being able to learn can be two different things. One thing that is overlooked about those Steelers teams in the 70s is how smart they were. Everyone saw Lambert out there snarling with no teeth. But he was a damn smart player. Ham. All over that team. Maybe in some cases the athletes are bigger, stronger and faster today, but I do wonder if they are as football smart. They get by on their great talent in high school and even college, but you gotta have some football smarts in the pros.

 

[Confluence]

Someday the built excuses are going to where too thin. The music will stop and Mike Tomlin will be left without a chair. If he doesn't go directly to a network he will be snapped up within days. But if they don't have a built in structure of high quality assistant coaches........it won't take long to realize he is just a great talker. The difference btw. Me and Lloyd is that I don't want to be right. Just think I am.

Plus you are not retarded, just frustrated and obstinate. Lol

 

[diver]

Sure, the Steelers have had underperforming players for the past decade, even with Ben, although those same guys performed well late in games when they threw our the playbook.

Why didn't our coaches/FO draft the same smart/capable players that they used to?

Do they exist to the degree they used to? I'm not so sure. It isn't their fault as much. Look at college ball. The team comes up to the LOS, the whole team looks over to the coach for the call. It makes me crazy. They don't really have to think. I'm not sure they are developing football smarts as much in college.

 

[Confluence]

Do they exist to the degree they used to? I'm not so sure. It isn't their fault as much. Look at college ball. The team comes up to the LOS, the whole team looks over to the coach for the call. It makes me crazy. They don't really have to think. I'm not sure they are developing football smarts as much in college.

If the players are all less capable then they used to be, why haven’t the Steelers won a playoff game in almost a decade? They got routed by other dummies with capable coaches like the stains assistant and whomever thought that Bortles or Tebow should start a playoff game?

Please

 

[BLITZ]

Sure, the Steelers have had underperforming players for the past decade, even with Ben, although those same guys performed well late in games when they threw our the playbook.

Why didn't our coaches/FO draft the same smart/capable players that they used to?

It has to be a lot on the coaches and scheme. they do not change. if we know this, my guess is opponents certainly know it

 

[diver]

If the players are all less capable then they used to be, why haven’t the Steelers won a playoff game in almost a decade? They got routed by other dummies with capable coaches like the stains assistant and whomever thought that Bortles or Tebow should start a playoff game?

Please

Wait a minute. I'm not saying what I am saying as some defense of Tomlin. For the love. But players have to be able to learn. It's just common sense. And maybe for whatever reason the Steelers don't have enough of those guys. The coaching hasn't been good enough, either.

It can be both, can't it?

 

[steelcan58]

It's preseason. You work on stuff. It seemed there was no offensive game plan other to get Wilson some throws early, which I did not like. Commit to the run, because they are going to have to lean on that for a bit until this line grows up. Let them smash some people. These young guys can do that.

This is where I disagree with the coaches. You have a lot of young guys on the OL. Put a bit of a game plan together and give them things they can have success at and build off of that success. Don't immediately come out in the pistol and ask the young players up front to start with where they are weaker. I don't think their approach last night was the best scenario for success.

But it's preseason. I don't mind the ugliness of it. Give the coaches something to grind on all week.

I get that it's preseason and the game plan was vanilla. That doesn't excuse guys from being thrown around like ragdolls and not having any response. Missing blocks and assignments is understandable - what happened last night was not. That's on the players not the coaches.

 

[Stewey]

They also had players who could learn. It takes both.

Above everything else IMO they had players with talent. Great talent.

 

[MT~Forged]

I get that it's preseason and the game plan was vanilla. That doesn't excuse guys from being thrown around like ragdolls and not having any response. Missing blocks and assignments is understandable - what happened last night was not. That's on the players not the coaches.

You do realize that it can be BOTH, right? Why even have coaches if they don’t do anything, or are responsible anything either.

 

[SteelerSask2]

I've never understood why NFL teams limit spending on assistant coaches. I'm pulling a number out of thin air here. Let's say you budget 15 million for non HC coaches. Double it to 30. It's worth more then one extra 15 million dollar player for sure. In fact I'd strongly argue if you took Tomlins salary and paid top dollar for the assistants you could do better with a low level HC. The Assistants do the hands on teaching.

 

[diver]

You do realize that it can be BOTH, right? Why even have coaches if they don’t do anything, or are responsible anything either.

Oh, cmon. The fact is it is both. Players play. Coaches don't miss blocks and tackles. No one is absolving the coaches. All that is being said is that blaming the coaches for everything isn't the right answer either.

 

[jitter77]

Oh, cmon. The fact is it is both. Players play. Coaches don't miss blocks and tackles. No one is absolving the coaches. All that is being said is that blaming the coaches for everything isn't the right answer either.

Last year especially at the beginning we had a lot of free rushers coming through. There were several breakdowns by various people showing how poor the scheme was. Some of it was communication as well, but I think most of that falls on coaches. In the preseason guys are getting flat out beat. Defenses are not even scheming so it could be scary once the season starts. Hopefully they get it together very quickly

 

[Drink IRON City]

Someday the built excuses are going to where too thin. The music will stop and Mike Tomlin will be left without a chair. If he doesn't go directly to a network he will be snapped up within days. But if they don't have a built in structure of high quality assistant coaches........it won't take long to realize he is just a great talker. The difference btw. Me and Lloyd is that I don't want to be right. Just think I am.

TRUTH on the Tomlin.


Salute the nation

 

[steelcan58]

You do realize that it can be BOTH, right? Why even have coaches if they don’t do anything, or are responsible anything either.

A vanilla game plan has zero to do with an offensive lineman continually getting steam rolled. I don't give two craps about the final score on the scoreboard Saturday. I do give a crap about winning one on one battles.

 

[Drink IRON City]

I've never understood why NFL teams limit spending on assistant coaches. I'm pulling a number out of thin air here. Let's say you budget 15 million for non HC coaches. Double it to 30. It's worth more then one extra 15 million dollar player for sure. In fact I'd strongly argue if you took Tomlins salary and paid top dollar for the assistants you could do better with a low level HC. The Assistants do the hands on teaching.

That blueprint has all ready been shown here……….. When Tomlin was first hired…… our Assistant coaches were top grade.


Salute the nation

 

[Fiji Mariner]

I've never understood why NFL teams limit spending on assistant coaches. I'm pulling a number out of thin air here. Let's say you budget 15 million for non HC coaches. Double it to 30. It's worth more then one extra 15 million dollar player for sure. In fact I'd strongly argue if you took Tomlins salary and paid top dollar for the assistants you could do better with a low level HC. The Assistants do the hands on teaching.

The Panthers tried that last year with their “all star” coaching hires they thought they were making. Brought in Reich who was a top candidate and then paid up for senior advisors like Caldwell and Capers and spent good coin on assistants too

By mid season the situation was described as “hunger games” with all the great minds coming after each other

Not saying it has to play out like that, but a lot of leadership is about the structure of the entire staff too. Guys have to mesh well and play their roles. Too many alphas not always the answer.

But 100 do believe Tomlin takes it to the other extreme surrounding himself with guys that don’t threaten his position in the organization in any way shape or form.

A happy medium would be nice to try like adding a competent OL coach and having some good X and O coordinators.

 

[Badcat]

Pre-season or not, the outside zone blocking scheme is very intricate. It's obvious some of you don't understand it, so let me break it down for you.

Strengths:
1. focuses on attacking space rather than specific players so it adapts to different defensive alignments
2. horizontal stress on defenses to open up cutback lanes
3. Less physical demand on OL, requires more finesse and technique
4. Exploits over aggressive MLB

Weaknesses:
1. Reliance on running back vision to recognize blocks and make quick decisions to explode into the lane.
2. Communication and coordination is the keystone of the scheme. Everyone must be on the same page or it all goes wrong.
3. Boom or bust nature. There is no consistency in the scheme, there will be chunk yardage and then no gain or losses.
4. Vulnerability to DL penetrating and blowing up plays.

I tried to implement an outside zone offense one year and the HC made me change it as the OL just weren't getting it. It's difficult. I changed to a power I and pulled the guards (small o-linemen) and let the bigger backs take on backers. Simple, but it works at a High School level.

I also noticed that Smith is using the TE's to inside trap the DT/NT and Washington in particular was doing a decent job of it. This is going to take some time to develop. It doesn't help playing musical chairs with the players either. Coaches should have figured out this **** before game 2 of the pre-season.

 

[slashsteel]

Pre-season or not, the outside zone blocking scheme is very intricate. It's obvious some of you don't understand it, so let me break it down for you.

Strengths:
1. focuses on attacking space rather than specific players so it adapts to different defensive alignments
2. horizontal stress on defenses to open up cutback lanes
3. Less physical demand on OL, requires more finesse and technique
4. Exploits over aggressive MLB

Weaknesses:
1. Reliance on running back vision to recognize blocks and make quick decisions to explode into the lane.
2. Communication and coordination is the keystone of the scheme. Everyone must be on the same page or it all goes wrong.
3. Boom or bust nature. There is no consistency in the scheme, there will be chunk yardage and then no gain or losses.
4. Vulnerability to DL penetrating and blowing up plays.

I tried to implement an outside zone offense one year and the HC made me change it as the OL just weren't getting it. It's difficult. I changed to a power I and pulled the guards (small o-linemen) and let the bigger backs take on backers. Simple, but it works at a High School level.

I also noticed that Smith is using the TE's to inside trap the DT/NT and Washington in particular was doing a decent job of it. This is going to take some time to develop. It doesn't help playing musical chairs with the players either. Coaches should have figured out this **** before game 2 of the pre-season.

That is the Steelers biggest issue. Let Jones develop at LT. Either let someone else take over at RT until Troy is healthy or bring in a vet RT. Let iron sharpen iron and develop. Stop trying to put emphasis on versatility and put more emphasis on development.

It is basic common sense. If I was the owner this is what I would demand. This is an aspect of Tomlin’s philosophy that does need to change.

 

[diver]

Pre-season or not, the outside zone blocking scheme is very intricate. It's obvious some of you don't understand it, so let me break it down for you.

Strengths:
1. focuses on attacking space rather than specific players so it adapts to different defensive alignments
2. horizontal stress on defenses to open up cutback lanes
3. Less physical demand on OL, requires more finesse and technique
4. Exploits over aggressive MLB

Weaknesses:
1. Reliance on running back vision to recognize blocks and make quick decisions to explode into the lane.
2. Communication and coordination is the keystone of the scheme. Everyone must be on the same page or it all goes wrong.
3. Boom or bust nature. There is no consistency in the scheme, there will be chunk yardage and then no gain or losses.
4. Vulnerability to DL penetrating and blowing up plays.

I tried to implement an outside zone offense one year and the HC made me change it as the OL just weren't getting it. It's difficult. I changed to a power I and pulled the guards (small o-linemen) and let the bigger backs take on backers. Simple, but it works at a High School level.

I also noticed that Smith is using the TE's to inside trap the DT/NT and Washington in particular was doing a decent job of it. This is going to take some time to develop. It doesn't help playing musical chairs with the players either. Coaches should have figured out this **** before game 2 of the pre-season.

Agreed. They are not doing their young players any favors. Put Jones where the hell he belongs at left, Fatanu at right, and Moore at right if Fatanu isn't healthy. If Moore can't handle right, he sits. I like Moore, I think he's a tough kid. But I don't understand what they are doing there.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Pre-season or not, the outside zone blocking scheme is very intricate. It's obvious some of you don't understand it, so let me break it down for you.

also noticed that Smith is using the TE's to inside trap the DT/NT and Washington in particular was doing a decent job of it. This is going to take some time to develop. It doesn't help playing musical chairs with the players either. Coaches should have figured out this **** before game 2 of the pre-season.

Can't say it enough.


Everyone should watch todays DK Sport Daily Shot. He talks about the investment we have made in the OL (2-1st rounders), yet not committing to them. Protecting a guy like Dan Moore instead of getting these chosen players into their position and playing them.

DK, obviously says it better than me, but I'm not the high paid reporter either. I just drive the LUXURY S10 and BT50.


Salute the nation

 

[Lloyd]

You do realize that it can be BOTH, right? Why even have coaches if they don’t do anything, or are responsible anything either.

In this Steeler/Rooney/Tomlin team, accountability is frowned on, right from the very top, and it bleeds down from the head to the entire body. Don't believe me? Tell me, what draft picks are the Rooneys accountable for? Oh, that's right, only the Hall of Famers. I see. And after the fact? Got it.

 

[madinsomniac]

My concern is this... regardless of whether I think Pat Meyers is a good OL coach or not, its indisputable that he teaches a very high technical style...
maybe, just maybe, you dont want rookies and second year guys playing all over while trying to perfect Muscle memory for one side or the other...

I just look at the run game and pass protection for The 17-19 chargers and 20-21 panthers didnt have great run game... some of those teams were bad rushing, others mediocre.. and in both cases, the run game improves a decent amount after he left.
Chargers:
2017- 24th
2018- 15th
2019- 29th
panthers:
2020- 21st
2021- 20th

He has been able to mostly have good pass blocking lines... the 2017 chargers led the league in fewest sacks and the 2021 Panthers were a hot mess giving up the fifth most sacks... his other three teams he was Ol coach on before coming here were 18th, 12th, and 10th in fewest sacks ...

So he averaged 14th in pass protection and 22nd in rushing over five years and two teams.. he also just had been fired for a season he was 20th in rushing and bottom 5 in sacks allowed...

Why is this your pick to run an oline for a Run centric team you are trying to build? Makes no sense...

 

[Lloyd]

My concern is this... regardless of whether I think Pat Meyers is a good OL coach or not, its indisputable that he teaches a very high technical style...
maybe, just maybe, you dont want rookies and second year guys playing all over while trying to perfect Muscle memory for one side or the other...

I just look at the run game and pass protection for The 17-19 chargers and 20-21 panthers didnt have great run game... some of those teams were bad rushing, others mediocre.. and in both cases, the run game improves a decent amount after he left.
Chargers:
2017- 24th
2018- 15th
2019- 29th
panthers:
2020- 21st
2021- 20th

He has been able to mostly have good pass blocking lines... the 2017 chargers led the league in fewest sacks and the 2021 Panthers were a hot mess giving up the fifth most sacks... his other three teams he was Ol coach on before coming here were 18th, 12th, and 10th in fewest sacks ...

So he averaged 14th in pass protection and 22nd in rushing over five years and two teams.. he also just had been fired for a season he was 20th in rushing and bottom 5 in sacks allowed...

Why is this your pick to run an oline for a Run centric team you are trying to build? Makes no sense...

Why? Because a certain head coach "vibes" with him and his "yes man" ways. The megalomaniac needs yes man around him. That's what we are dealing with.

 

[Lloyd]

I've never understood why NFL teams limit spending on assistant coaches. I'm pulling a number out of thin air here. Let's say you budget 15 million for non HC coaches. Double it to 30. It's worth more then one extra 15 million dollar player for sure. In fact I'd strongly argue if you took Tomlins salary and paid top dollar for the assistants you could do better with a low level HC. The Assistants do the hands on teaching.

Yea, but who would be in charge of fancy, neeto quips and total lack of team discipline? Who would be in charge of "partial" ping pong privileges being taken away (only to rookies and young players). Don't you need that "cool" guy famous for "getting along with players" and fancy quips plus twirling the whistle around?

 

[SteelerFan448]

Can't say it enough.


Everyone should watch todays DK Sport Daily Shot. He talks about the investment we have made in the OL (2-1st rounders), yet not committing to them. Protecting a guy like Dan Moore instead of getting these chosen players into their position and playing them.

DK, obviously says it better than me, but I'm not the high paid reporter either. I just drive the LUXURY S10 and BT50.

Chris Carter had a good article in the PG about Jones today. It actually made me feel a little better about Jones as Carter highlighted the footwork and mental game were there, the physical game was a big issue with hand placement. This is where he brought up the injured elbow and he can actual hide that injury a bit playing on the left side.

Even very good tackles take time to develop and now that he's in year 2, it's time to settle Jones into his future position.