Interesting two round mock draft

[ZACKB]

I was reading something today from Mel Kiper where he was discussing the depth of the draft. He said there are 7 gems in this draft, they are Clowney, Mack, Watkins, Evans, Matthews, Robinson, and Lewan.

The only Pro Day I have seen Munchak specifically mentioned was Michigan, he visited Lewan. If I am not mistaken, all three (Colbert, Tomlin, and Munchak) had dinner with Lewan. Have not visited with him and a few years ago, that would have meant more, but they have been much less likely to visit some guys than in the past.

If Lewan did not have the off-the-field/character issues, he would likely find his way into the top 10 picks. I seriously doubt they pass on him at 15 and doubt he makes it past the Dolphins at 19. In fact, I think his landing spot is likely the Giants at 12, but if he makes it past them, he has to be one of the higher priority players for the Steelers.

TMC, do you def see Lewan being able to play LT. Does he have the feet, agility, etc? I guess if we drafted him, Adams can play RT.

 

[ZACKB]

Reading more on Lewan. Crap, I think I'm sold on taking him. Play Adams at RT, let Dilbert be there for depth.

 

[TMC]

TMC, do you def see Lewan being able to play LT. Does he have the feet, agility, etc? I guess if we drafted him, Adams can play RT.

I am not as high on Lewan as some, but I can see how he could play LT. Players that play a wide 9 and use speed is his weakness and he can be beaten, but I went back and watched more film of him last night, just because I think he is a firm target. Michigan ran some 2-TE sets and slipped a RB to his side when he faced speed on the edge. The interesting thing, while they would chip sometimes, even when they did not, that extra step he gained was enough for him him handle the speed in most instances. Also, when he does get beat, one of the things he will do is reach out, dive even, just to get a hand on the defensive player and try to knock him past the QB. He does not give up on the outside rush easily. And, when he locks on, he can be really sticky. I see good movement going forward, leads plays well, good position and angles as a run blocker.

One other thing, he does not use his jab well and IF he could improve that, refine it, strike with it, it could significantly help him against speed to the edge. He is a catcher, he lets the DL come to him and he sucks them in, swallows them a little, kind of has that quicksand feel to his game where IF you get into him, he does not let you out. He handles double moves and power well. I think against a guy like Woodley, Suggs, Harrison, where they use more bull than speed, he would be very effective. Where he would struggle is with a guy like DeMarcus Ware, who can blend speed and power and keep him off balance with it. But, plenty of LTs struggle with guys like that.

So, yeah, I can see him as a LT. I do have to say this, he reminds me a lot of Jake Long. I did not like Long's feet that much coming out of college and it was my big ??? with him, so there are plenty of guys that just continue to play that steady, consistent, non-flashy type of LT in the pros...and that is what Lewan is, steady, consistent, not flashy.

He also has the mentality to play in a man scheme and appears to have the raw tools to play in a zone blocking scheme, although he would need work.

 

[TMC]

Reading more on Lewan. Crap, I think I'm sold on taking him. Play Adams at RT, let Dilbert be there for depth.

Well, I think what you get IF they draft an OT (and I am not sold on just taking any OT), you get competition at LT. If the rookie wins, that means Beachum can challenge at RT or LG. You put the best 5 on the field. With every OT on roster with contracts of less than 2 seasons, to me, we have to have that fish or cut bait moment with some of them. Someone has to step up or we have to replace them all.

 

[Vader]

I equate the term "difference maker" with wins. Niners didn't win any games before Willis and they didn't win any after him. Was he still a great player? Sure. But how can you say Willis was a difference Maker and Timmons wasn't when the Niners were no better in the win column with him on the team?

You do? Well then half the HOF weren't difference makers. You really don't want to go here. Mike Singletary must not be a difference maker because the Bears were: 6-10, 3-6, and 8-8 his first 3 years. I guess Joe Greene wasn't a difference maker since the Steelers went: 1-13, 5-9, and 6-8. Sorry but your premise is just flawed big time.

 

[ZACKB]

I still think cb is our biggest need, but Lewan looks good.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

You do? Well then half the HOF weren't difference makers. You really don't want to go here. Mike Singletary must not be a difference maker because the Bears were: 6-10, 3-6, and 8-8 his first 3 years. I guess Joe Greene wasn't a difference maker since the Steelers went: 1-13, 5-9, and 6-8. Sorry but your premise is just flawed big time.

So again I ask you then, what difference did Willis make?

 

[Idioteque]

So again I ask you then, what difference did Willis make?

The difference between "decent ILB" and "All-Pro ILB"

 

[Vader]

So again I ask you then, what difference did Willis make?

You can't be this daft? What difference did Greene make? It's a stupid question because one defensive player can't make the offense better, the special teams better, the kicker better, the coaches better etc... it's a ******* stupid premise.

As far as Willis goes the defense went from 20th in points in 2007 to 4th in points just two years later.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

The difference between "decent ILB" and "All-Pro ILB"

Apparently that difference doesn't equate to wins, so who cares?

You can't be this daft? What difference did Greene make? It's a stupid question because one defensive player can't make the offense better, the special teams better, the kicker better, the coaches better etc... it's a ******* stupid premise.

So you agree then. He wasn't a difference maker.

Ben Roethlisberger is a difference maker. Adrian Peterson is a difference maker. Patrick Willis is a great player and likely the best ILB in the league, but he's not a difference maker. In fact, like Timmons, he plays at a position that is very dependent on the guys around him to BE a difference maker.

 

[Vader]

Apparently that difference doesn't equate to wins, so who cares?



So you agree then. He wasn't a difference maker.

Ben Roethlisberger is a difference maker. Adrian Peterson is a difference maker. Patrick Willis is a great player and likely the best ILB in the league, but he's not a difference maker. In fact, like Timmons, he plays at a position that is very dependent on the guys around him to BE a difference maker.

You're just grasping at straws because you obviously don't know what you are talking about. As I mentioned the 49ers went from 20th to 4th in points. All players are dependent to a degree on the players around them. So accord to you only QBs can be difference makers. Players like Woodson, Greene and Singletary aren't difference makers because of your dumb *** theory.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

You're just grasping at straws because you obviously don't know what you are talking about. As I mentioned the 49ers went from 20th to 4th in points. All players are dependent to a degree on the players around them. So accord to you only QBs can be difference makers. Players like Woodson, Greene and Singletary aren't difference makers because of your dumb *** theory.

Every guy you mentioned was on a loaded team. So no, they weren't difference makers by themselves. Where they great, and in some instances, HOF players? Absolutely.

Joe Greene Said it best when talking about Franco Harris - "We didn't win any Super Bowls before Franco, and we didn't win any after him". Joe Greene, himself a hall of fame player, said they needed more guys with talent to compete.

Shoot me if you must, but I consider a "difference maker" a person who's absence cripples their team's ability to win. So yes, with the nature of defense and how it's reliant on the players around you, being a "difference maker" is mainly an offensive trait. Niners were still garbage when Willis was having all-pro seasons. It wasn't until he got talent around him that they started locking people down.

 

[Vader]

Every guy you mentioned was on a loaded team. So no, they weren't difference makers by themselves. Where they great, and in some instances, HOF players? Absolutely.

Joe Greene Said it best when talking about Franco Harris - "We didn't win any Super Bowls before Franco, and we didn't win any after him". Joe Greene, himself a hall of fame player, said they needed more guys with talent to compete.

Shoot me if you must, but I consider a "difference maker" a person who's absence cripples their team's ability to win. So yes, with the nature of defense and how it's reliant on the players around you, being a "difference maker" is mainly an offensive trait. Niners were still garbage when Willis was having all-pro seasons. It wasn't until he got talent around him that they started locking people down.

Sorry but that is total bullshit. Greene was not on a loaded team. They were horrible before him. Singletary was not on a loaded team when he got there. Woodson was not on a loaded team. So you either don't know what you are talking about or just making **** up.. I suspect the latter. Also now you change the premise again. Greene said "we didn't win any SUPER BOWLS. Marino NEVER won a SB. So he must not be a difference maker either. You're all over the place on this one. Obviously you've gotten in over your head. Please tell me who the difference makers are.. I'd love to hear this. Bell, DeCastro, Jones, etc.. must not be difference makers since they haven't won a thing in the NFL. How many SBs did Moss win? He must not be a difference maker. How about Megatron? Nope, no rings there. I guess Luck isn't a difference makers.. no rings.

Just ******* laughable.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

Sorry but that is total bullshit. Greene was not on a loaded team. They were horrible before him. Singletary was not on a loaded team when he got there. Woodson was not on a loaded team. So you either don't know what you are talking about or just making **** up.. I suspect the latter. Also now you change the premise again. Greene said "we didn't win any SUPER BOWLS. Marino NEVER won a SB. So he must not be a difference maker either. You're all over the place on this one. Obviously you've gotten in over your head. Please tell me who the difference makers are.. I'd love to hear this. Bell, DeCastro, Jones, etc.. must not be difference makers since they haven't won a thing in the NFL. How many SBs did Moss win? He must not be a difference maker. How about Megatron? Nope, no rings there. I guess Luck isn't a difference makers.. no rings.

Just ******* laughable.

I haven't changed anything. My argument is the same - Patrick Willis by himself was no difference maker. Joe Greene by himself was no difference maker. I never once made mention of the team before him.


I've asked you multiple times, what difference Did Willis make after he was drafted? For that matter, what difference has Megatron made?

We obviously disagree on this point. You think a player being great is enough to be a difference maker. I disagree - I think it takes a collection of great players to make a difference, and aside from Franchise QBs being a difference maker is rare in the league. You mentioned Dan Marino. The Marino Era Dolphins were notorious for having little to no talent surrounding Marino - it's no surprise he was only able to drag them to one Super Bowl. Was he a difference maker? Absolutely, but obviously not enough of one to win a championship.

 

[deljzc]

I said two months ago on the other site I thought Lewan was a definite option for us.

I think he is very, very similar to Michael Roos. Plays a similar style. Very similar builds. Munchak LOVED Roos in Tennessee. He was an absolute rock. Played 143 out of 144 possible games since drafted.

I think if Munchak is helping out with the O-line scouting, he's going to love Taylor Lewan. I know people worry about his off-field stuff, but Munchak is a Jeff Fisher disciple and I don't think Munchak has any qualms about O-linemen that play close to the "dirty" line, carry a chip on their shoulder, or stick up for teammates no matter what (and make some pretty dumb choices doing so).

I have no doubt Lewan is much closer to Richie Incognito than Jonathan Martin in that spectrum of players. And I have no doubt Mike Munchak was too when he played.

I think Lewan is one of the top guys on their board. Then Evans. Then Lee. Then Nix. Everyone wants to push us towards CB, but Tomlin and Lebeau (and the defensive systems they promote) have never pushed using a lot of resources on the CB position. Lebeau never drafted a 1st round corner in his entire time coaching in both Pittsburgh and Cincinnati. Tomlin came from Dungy and he never pushed CB as a premium position in his Tampa-2 scheme.

If there is one thing Lebeau and Tomlin seem to see eye-to-eye on is cornerbacks. They could care less if they can stick in someone's pocket for 3 seconds. They want guys that know how to play zone, how to hand off guys correctly and most importantly they like guys that get their noses dirty and tackle. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Speed? Change of direction? Ball skills? Eh.... they'd rather have William Gay.

 

[Idioteque]

I've asked you multiple times, what difference Did Willis make after he was drafted?

...and he responded very clearly that the 49ers quickly jumped from 20th in points allowed to 4th in points allowed.

All units add together to produce success or failure.

We obviously disagree on this point. You think a player being great is enough to be a difference maker. I disagree - I think it takes a collection of great players to make a difference, and aside from Franchise QBs being a difference maker is rare in the league. You mentioned Dan Marino. The Marino Era Dolphins were notorious for having little to no talent surrounding Marino - it's no surprise he was only able to drag them to one Super Bowl. Was he a difference maker? Absolutely, but obviously not enough of one to win a championship.

So don't draft anyone? Is that the point here?

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I said two months ago on the other site I thought Lewan was a definite option for us.

I think he is very, very similar to Michael Roos. Plays a similar style. Very similar builds. Munchak LOVED Roos in Tennessee. He was an absolute rock. Played 143 out of 144 possible games since drafted.

I think if Munchak is helping out with the O-line scouting, he's going to love Taylor Lewan. I know people worry about his off-field stuff, but Munchak is a Jeff Fisher disciple and I don't think Munchak has any qualms about O-linemen that play close to the "dirty" line, carry a chip on their shoulder, or stick up for teammates no matter what (and make some pretty dumb choices doing so).

I have no doubt Lewan is much closer to Richie Incognito than Jonathan Martin in that spectrum of players. And I have no doubt Mike Munchak was too when he played.

I think Lewan is one of the top guys on their board. Then Evans. Then Lee. Then Nix. Everyone wants to push us towards CB, but Tomlin and Lebeau (and the defensive systems they promote) have never pushed using a lot of resources on the CB position. Lebeau never drafted a 1st round corner in his entire time coaching in both Pittsburgh and Cincinnati. Tomlin came from Dungy and he never pushed CB as a premium position in his Tampa-2 scheme.

If there is one thing Lebeau and Tomlin seem to see eye-to-eye on is cornerbacks. They could care less if they can stick in someone's pocket for 3 seconds. They want guys that know how to play zone, how to hand off guys correctly and most importantly they like guys that get their noses dirty and tackle. Fundamentals, fundamentals, fundamentals. Speed? Change of direction? Ball skills? Eh.... they'd rather have William Gay.

Agreed on Lewan. Doubt he'll be there for the Steelers to take him though.

The cornerback thing i've found terribly odd. Steelers have never prioritized the position, not sure why people have settled on us taking a corner. Much better athletes than Dennard available at 15, not to mention the Steelers have proved they're able to find quality at the position in later rounds.

 

[Vader]

I haven't changed anything. My argument is the same - Patrick Willis by himself was no difference maker. Joe Greene by himself was no difference maker. I never once made mention of the team before him.


I've asked you multiple times, what difference Did Willis make after he was drafted? For that matter, what difference has Megatron made?

We obviously disagree on this point. You think a player being great is enough to be a difference maker. I disagree - I think it takes a collection of great players to make a difference, and aside from Franchise QBs being a difference maker is rare in the league. You mentioned Dan Marino. The Marino Era Dolphins were notorious for having little to no talent surrounding Marino - it's no surprise he was only able to drag them to one Super Bowl. Was he a difference maker? Absolutely, but obviously not enough of one to win a championship.

I ******* told you what difference he made but you totally ignored it. Willis helped take the points allowed down from 20th to 4th. You keep flopping around like a fish. YOU said that Franco was a difference maker. NOW you are saying that it takes a collection of players. Make up your ******* mind already. You started with a difference maker in "winning" then went to a difference maker in winning "Super Bowls". Now you are onto "nobody really is a difference maker unless it is a collection of great players". Then you end your rant by saying Marino WAS a difference maker but not a "good enough one". **** me, you can't keep your story straight even from sentence to sentence.

Also either you are too ignorant to know what you are arguing or you realize that you've been caught and can't find a way out. You made mention of the teams before him by saying "they had LOADED TEAMS." Which is a flat out falsehood. I took the EXACT same metric you used for Willis which was the first 3 years. But you didn't like that because it didn't meet your desired outcome. That's when you started flopping around.

The bottom line is that you can have difference makers at certain positions but they can't overcome everything for an entire team. Barry Sanders was a difference maker. But he couldn't make up for a bad defense and no QB.

 

[DeaconKnowledge]

I ******* told you what difference he made but you totally ignored it. Willis helped take the points allowed down from 20th to 4th. You keep flopping around like a fish. YOU said that Franco was a difference maker. NOW you are saying that it takes a collection of players. Make up your ******* mind already. You started with a difference maker in "winning" then went to a difference maker in winning "Super Bowls". Now you are onto "nobody really is a difference maker unless it is a collection of great players". Then you end your rant by saying Marino WAS a difference maker but not a "good enough one". **** me, you can't keep your story straight even from sentence to sentence.

Also either you are too ignorant to know what you are arguing or you realize that you've been caught and can't find a way out. You made mention of the teams before him by saying "they had LOADED TEAMS." Which is a flat out falsehood. I took the EXACT same metric you used for Willis which was the first 3 years. But you didn't like that because it didn't meet your desired outcome. That's when you started flopping around.

The bottom line is that you can have difference makers at certain positions but they can't overcome everything for an entire team. Barry Sanders was a difference maker. But he couldn't make up for a bad defense and no QB.

YOU said that Franco was a difference maker.

I said the opposite: Read again:

Joe Greene Said it best when talking about Franco Harris - "We didn't win any Super Bowls before Franco, and we didn't win any after him". Joe Greene, himself a hall of fame player, said they needed more guys with talent to compete.

Also either you are too ignorant to know what you are arguing or you realize that you've been caught and can't find a way out. You made mention of the teams before him by saying "they had LOADED TEAMS." Which is a flat out falsehood. I took the EXACT same metric you used for Willis which was the first 3 years. But you didn't like that because it didn't meet your desired outcome. That's when you started flopping around.

Again, didn't say that. I said Willis wan't a difference maker the first 4 years. I said the guys YOU mentioned (Woodson, Greene, Singletary) were on loaded teams. You are repeatedly trying to twist my words so i'm saying something I haven't.

 

[Wingman]

I think the guy was a difference maker. Players that are difference makers do not necessarily change the teams record but make a difference in other ways. If you wish to see an example of a difference maker that changed a team from a non champion to a champion, look at the commissioner that took the title from the Pottsville Maroons and gave it to the Cardinals, now that is a difference maker that will fit your definition.

 

[Vader]

I said the opposite: Read again:

Again, didn't say that. I said Willis wan't a difference maker the first 4 years. I said the guys YOU mentioned (Woodson, Greene, Singletary) were on loaded teams. You are repeatedly trying to twist my words so i'm saying something I haven't.

So you quoted Joe Greene so you could say that Franco WASN'T a difference maker? Boy, you are spinning now. Then you again either out right lie about the teams or are just ignorant. Woodson was NOT on a loaded team. Neither was Greene or Singletary. You need to learn some more football. Those teams became loaded several years AFTER those guys were drafted. I don't need to twist anything. You do fine all by yourself. You use ******* Adrian Peterson as a difference maker even though without Farve his teams have gone 8-8, 10,6, 6-10, 3-13, 10-6, 5-13? I don't see much of a difference. Maybe you need to rethink who is a "difference maker"?

 

[BLITZ]

the only thing I know is I wish willis was not being a difference maker on the the steelers vrs the 49ers.

 

[Vader]

the only thing I know is I wish willis was not being a difference maker on the the steelers vrs the 49ers.

Absolutely!

 

[Stryker]

Flacco is a difference maker...........for the other team.

 

[Slaine]

In the four seasons after Willis was drafted the Niners went 5-11, 7-9, 8-8, and 6-10. What difference did Willis make?

I think our definition of difference makers is different for want of a better word.

I think of a difference maker as someone that allows you to do something with your team that you wouldn't otherwise be able to do. Willis does that. He allows you to take away centre field and know that he's going to take care of that. Richard Sherman is a difference maker because he allows you to forget about that side of the field or take away a specific player that the other team relies on.

Was Barry Sanders a difference maker to you? The Lions were ******* awful but he was sensational and made them competitive in games that they shouldn't have been in. Willis in terms of scoring defence made that 49er D that much better. That's the sort of guy that I'd like to be getting at 15. My premise is that I don't think that sort of player is there at 15 this year so we should trade down if at all possible.