No production from last two first rounders

[POP]

I mean, at what point do we start realizing our last two first round picks are rarely on the field, and even when they are, they do little to nothing in terms of making a positive impact on the D.

Supposedly, Jones was an immense, colossal steal for where we picked him. The team told us he was such a steal, that they did no work towards him because he would never fall out of the top 10.

OK.

Since then, he has been seen getting overpowered by every OT he faced, or simply not seen the field at all. How many games has he missed from injuries?

This team is highly dependent on OLB production. The team simply can't succeed unless our OLB are killers. Worilds has proven too inferior. But Jones hasn't illustrated he is the killer we need either.

Shazier was supposed to be the next wonder kid, ala a Polamalu at ILB. He was supposed to have mind-blowing physical skills and speed. So far, his speed has been only showcased by how fast he gets hurt.

And, when he does play, he does nothing of note. He gets washed out easily. I feel he may simply be too small to play the position at this level. His immense weight gain of 20 lbs of muscle in a few months is highly questionable. If he did get on PEDs it could help explain why he is always hurt; the body often times can't handle such artificial muscle gain brought on by steroids or HGH.

All I know is not getting any production from the last two, pretty high first rounders is not helping this team. Had those players been as advertised, we'd be a much better team right now.

But, alas, they are not. And we really NEED them to be right now. Who is accountable for those draft picks?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Too soon to say on both of them, but the arrow is not pointing up for Jones. If you will. Obviously.

 

[AggieSteel]

At this point, I'm just really not sure if it's the draft picks that are the problem, or the coaching/scheme. You just can't convince me that NOBODY we draft or sign as a FA to play defense is worth a god damn.

 

[Wingman]

At this point, I'm just really not sure if it's the draft picks that are the problem, or the coaching/scheme. You just can't convince me that NOBODY we draft or sign as a FA to play defense is worth a god damn.

Well Aggie the only things I would say that points to the scheme not being the issue would be Kiesel and Harrison. Two guys past their prime but still out performing the young studs that were drafted high. Neither one of them were high round picks. I just think that of late the draft evaluation and talent assessment has been poor compared to the past. Linebacker choices have not been looking real good for a long time.

 

[AggieSteel]

Well Aggie the only things I would say that points to the scheme not being the issue would be Kiesel and Harrison. Two guys past their prime but still out performing the young studs that were drafted high. Neither one of them were high round picks. I just think that of late the draft evaluation and talent assessment has been poor compared to the past. Linebacker choices have not been looking real good for a long time.

True.. Yeah it's not the scheme per se, but the development of said players

 

[SteelerFan448]

All I know is not getting any production from the last two, pretty high first rounders is not helping this team. Had those players been as advertised, we'd be a much better team right now.

But, alas, they are not. And we really NEED them to be right now. Who is accountable for those draft picks?

Absolutely and Kevin Colbert became a moron when it comes to drafting starting in 2007.

 

[stillwright]

Well Aggie the only things I would say that points to the scheme not being the issue would be Kiesel and Harrison. Two guys past their prime but still out performing the young studs that were drafted high. Neither one of them were high round picks. I just think that of late the draft evaluation and talent assessment has been poor compared to the past. Linebacker choices have not been looking real good for a long time.

Both Harrison and Kiesel sat for years...these 2(first rounders) guys were thrown right in...Maybe it does take years to feel comfortable in this scheme...if that is the case I believe you have to simplifly it for the players...This has been going on for years. A player sits for 2,3 or 4 years and then starts their final year only too leave through FA. So maybe the scheme is part of the problem.

 

[ark steel]

I sort of have a hard time blaming Shazier for not being on the field, when his injury was because someone rolled up on his leg. It isn't like poor conditioning or any PE use would have helped cause that injury.

It is also an injury that keeps him from practicing full speed (if he can at all), as well. As some said in another thread, he could sit and watch game film and read the play book all day long, but that is no substitute for being on the field and going full speed.

 

[ExUSAF]

Absolutely and Kevin Colbert became a moron when it comes to drafting starting in 2007.

Not sure - what else happened in 2007 that might explain the poor drafting?

 

[Wingman]

Both Harrison and Kiesel sat for years...these 2(first rounders) guys were thrown right in...Maybe it does take years to feel comfortable in this scheme...if that is the case I believe you have to simplifly it for the players...This has been going on for years. A player sits for 2,3 or 4 years and then starts there finally year only too leave through FA. So maybe the scheme is part of the problem.

Still, I would also suggest that many of the players were sitting because the players ahead of them forced them to do so. There were players that came in and played well right away, Farrier for one, Porter, for another as soon as he could crack the line up. In times gone by we would often have to decide between several good players as to who to keep and the ones we let go were great players for another team, we have not had that for a while. Granted these guys need time to develop but even then they do not seem to be that great at beating their man or making a solid tackle. As an example that the system is not to advanced Moats has come in and played rather well for his first year in the system and he is a journeyman linebacker that seems just as good as our first rounders at this point.

 

[POP]

Still, I would also suggest that many of the players were sitting because the players ahead of them forced them to do so. There were players that came in and played well right away, Farrier for one, Porter, for another as soon as he could crack the line up. In times gone by we would often have to decide between several good players as to who to keep and the ones we let go were great players for another team, we have not had that for a while. Granted these guys need time to develop but even then they do not seem to be that great at beating their man or making a solid tackle. As an example that the system is not to advanced Moats has come in and played rather well for his first year in the system and he is a journeyman linebacker that seems just as good as our first rounders at this point.

As for scheme vs. player talent....IDK. The bottom line for OLB is they MUST be able to get a pass rush going. If our OLB aren't getting to the QB, the whole D, and team, is shot. It's a deal breaker. And when you watch Jones, you see him just neutralized every time when he tried to get past the OT. When our D is working we had Greene, Lloyd, Harrison or Woodley getting it done. It's the beginning and end of a successful D in this system. OLBs not getting to the QB means teams will tear up our DBs to shreds, and if our DBs aren't very good, like we have right now, it means we give up 30+ at least half our games. I am not concluding that our past 2 first rounders are a known FAIL. But I sure don't like sitting here knowing they are a non factor in our run to make the play offs. A team with zero production from its two last first round picks will not be a very successful team.

 

[Ward4HOF]

It's more than just the OLB's rushing the QB... LeBeau's defense starts with stopping the run and tackling. McClendon has done a good job when he's in there but injuries have kept him off the field too much. If you can't stop the run, the defense doesn't work well (remember the long run the Steelers had of not allowing a 100 yard rusher) Big Snack was the main reason for that. The left OLB has always done more coverage than the right. It's when it's 3rd and long when LeBeau brings the house.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

It's more than just the OLB's rushing the QB... LeBeau's defense starts with stopping the run and tackling. McClendon has done a good job when he's in there but injuries have kept him off the field too much. If you can't stop the run, the defense doesn't work well (remember the long run the Steelers had of not allowing a 100 yard rusher) Big Snack was the main reason for that. The left OLB has always done more coverage than the right. It's when it's 3rd and long when LeBeau brings the house.

They don't defend the pass very well either, due mostly (IMO) to the lack of a pass rush because 2/3 of the DL and 1/2 of the LB's suck. Ike and Troy may have lost a step but Deion Sanders in his prime can't cover when the QB and receivers have all friggen' day.

 

[POP]

It's more than just the OLB's rushing the QB... LeBeau's defense starts with stopping the run and tackling. McClendon has done a good job when he's in there but injuries have kept him off the field too much. If you can't stop the run, the defense doesn't work well (remember the long run the Steelers had of not allowing a 100 yard rusher) Big Snack was the main reason for that. The left OLB has always done more coverage than the right. It's when it's 3rd and long when LeBeau brings the house.

True, but I thought that was a given without saying. Of course they have to stop the rush, and we need a legit 3-4 NT to make that happen. We have had great rush stopping Ds with Steed and Hampton, and we have struggled in seasons without them. We MUST get a legit 3-4 NT in order to be a top 10 D again. However, even if we fix the rush D, we still have to defend the pass, and we stink at that unless we bring pressure, and that pressure mostly comes from the OLBs. And as of now, they simply are not generating enough pressure. I don't know how we started to stop Cinci, as we were not getting any where near Ginger head. Imagine what a Brady or Manning will do to this D if we make the play offs.

 

[Steelersrule]

Timmons did not leap tall buildings his first couple years. Where is Mendy.? Times change and so does other teams adjustments. Is it the player, the coach or the scout?

 

[F83]

I want to see the D handed to Butler and Lake simplify it so rookies are able to pick it up sooner, it took 2 years for Worlids to crack the nickel asa sub rusher, they MUST SIMPLIFY IT, LEBEAU HAS IT BEYOND TOO COMPLICATED ITS NOT LIKE WE DRAFT PLAYERS WITH GREAT WONDERLIC SCORES OR IQ'S ON D, UNLESS YOU ARE DRAFTING KIDS FROM STANFORD, NOTRE DAME, BOSTON COLLEGE, CAL, BAYLOR.
AND YOUR TARGET SCHOOLS ARE
OHIO ST, GEORGIA, CLEMSON, TENNESSEE AZ ST KENT ST OKLAHOMA

THEN IT WILL TAKE KIDS FROM THE ABOVE SCHOOLS EVEN BAMA IN OUR D TO PICK UP OUR SYSTEM, HAD WE TAKEN CLINTON-DIX INSTEAD OF SHAZIER HE WOULD LIKELY BE JUST ON ST AND AT MOST IN THE DIME.

 

[POP]

I want to see the D handed to Butler and Lake simplify it so rookies are able to pick it up sooner, it took 2 years for Worlids to crack the nickel asa sub rusher, they MUST SIMPLIFY IT, LEBEAU HAS IT BEYOND TOO COMPLICATED ITS NOT LIKE WE DRAFT PLAYERS WITH GREAT WONDERLIC SCORES OR IQ'S ON D, UNLESS YOU ARE DRAFTING KIDS FROM STANFORD, NOTRE DAME, BOSTON COLLEGE, CAL, BAYLOR.
AND YOUR TARGET SCHOOLS ARE
OHIO ST, GEORGIA, CLEMSON, TENNESSEE AZ ST KENT ST OKLAHOMA

THEN IT WILL TAKE KIDS FROM THE ABOVE SCHOOLS EVEN BAMA IN OUR D TO PICK UP OUR SYSTEM, HAD WE TAKEN CLINTON-DIX INSTEAD OF SHAZIER HE WOULD LIKELY BE JUST ON ST AND AT MOST IN THE DIME.

Dick, thanks for your service and your amazing career, but kindly go smell the roses and take your overly complex system with you. That complicated system has been hurting player development for years and needs to stop. Also, can we stop the "need to teach player a new position" madness? I swear Dick makes it so complicated to prove what a genius he is. I am over it. Oh, and take the now-overrated Troy with you and go fishing together. Harrison and Keisel can go with you too.

 

[FAB802]

Jones hasn't done **** and he's been injured to boot. The guy we got in the second round last year is as good a back as there is in the league, so that one doesn't hurt as much. The one from this year has been a twinge all year so the jury is still out. The kid we got in round four this year has seven touchdown catches in seven games. It's too early to label either of them. They have to figure out a way to get better drafting defensive players, the offense is stacked. Either we need all new scouts, a better GM, or coaches who can get something out of the players on the roster.

 

[Ward4HOF]

True, but I thought that was a given without saying. Of course they have to stop the rush, and we need a legit 3-4 NT to make that happen. We have had great rush stopping Ds with Steed and Hampton, and we have struggled in seasons without them. We MUST get a legit 3-4 NT in order to be a top 10 D again. However, even if we fix the rush D, we still have to defend the pass, and we stink at that unless we bring pressure, and that pressure mostly comes from the OLBs. And as of now, they simply are not generating enough pressure. I don't know how we started to stop Cinci, as we were not getting any where near Ginger head. Imagine what a Brady or Manning will do to this D if we make the play offs.

Ya I agree on the nose tackle but Tomlin keeps saying a true nose tackle isn't needed in the new NFL. I'm hoping this year has clued him in a little. Once in awhile the D seems to get a decent pass rush (Cinci, Indy, Balt). I'm hoping this time has refreshed Harrison as I wonder is he was starting to wear down after those 3 good games. Brady or Manning would very likely light us up. With either of those guys I hit them hard in the 1st quarter even if you take a penalty - they need to hear footsteps the rest of the game.

Steeler fans were pretty spoiled with the defense until a few years ago. If you go through the names of the 2008 Defense it's pretty impressive. Back when the defense could hit too!

 

[Ward4HOF]

Dick, thanks for your service and your amazing career, but kindly go smell the roses and take your overly complex system with you. That complicated system has been hurting player development for years and needs to stop. Also, can we stop the "need to teach player a new position" madness? I swear Dick makes it so complicated to prove what a genius he is. I am over it. Oh, and take the now-overrated Troy with you and go fishing together. Harrison and Keisel can go with you too.

That's why Farrior and Clark were so terrible their first year? Oh ya, they were pretty good.

 

[madinsomniac]

the complicated d issue isn't as big as people make it out to be... every NFL D uses some zone blitz schemes, all have read and react plays anymore. Its gotten very complicated compared to what it was pretty much all over. Some of this may simply be that we expect young guys to be impact guys right off the bat because of how quick they bolt these days, and a lot of it is the lower picks simply don't get a chance despite how they play there probably is less development with this team than with past staffs, for whatever reason

 

[bermudasteel]

Well Aggie the only things I would say that points to the scheme not being the issue would be Kiesel and Harrison. Two guys past their prime but still out performing the young studs that were drafted high. Neither one of them were high round picks. I just think that of late the draft evaluation and talent assessment has been poor compared to the past. Linebacker choices have not been looking real good for a long time.

Not that I'm disagreeing with you; but, I'd lean toward the "they know the defensive schemes better" than the young cats like Aggie was eluding to...

 

[Stryker]

We'll see when they're healthy. Shazier has flashed talent and ability. JJ far less, and I'm not sure if he's played a full season yet in 2 years, but I'm expecting him to be stronger next season. Will be interesting to see if he can get it done in year 3.

 

[bermudasteel]

Let me add this...

I'm a proud Steeler fan and I support the decisions of the FO and coaching staff - that being said, I would 'recommend' that a 'change of the guard' take place sooner rather than later. Our offense has rebounded from the "run, run, run, punt" era to one of the most prolific offenses in the league (Ben is currently second in passing, AB is second in receiving and Bell is second in rushing - it's week 15!!!).

I believe that every team knows what we're trying to do defensively because we've done it the same way for so long. The results - PASS the ball all over the field and neutralize the pass rush because we don't have one. Coach LeBeau's prodigy in Ray Horton is looking TREMENDOUS in Arizona. While Willie Gay leads our team in take aways - no knock on Willie; but, I don't even think we have 10 INT's as a team (please correct me if I'm wrong)...

So, since we can't get a consistent pass rush with the personnel we trot out each Sunday - perhaps a different chef can make this dish delectable again with the same ingredients??? No?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I believe that every team knows what we're trying to do defensively because we've done it the same way for so long. The results - PASS the ball all over the field and neutralize the pass rush because we don't have one. Coach LeBeau's prodigy in Ray Horton is looking TREMENDOUS in Arizona. While Willie Gay leads our team in take aways - no knock on Willie; but, I don't even think we have 10 INT's as a team (please correct me if I'm wrong)...

The short passing game a la Belicheat/Brady has always been LeBeau's kryptonite. With rules changes the past few years to favor passing, nearly everyone is doing that now. Coupled with a declining talent level on defense, we just can't keep up with 1 decent DL (Heyward), 1.5 decent LB's (Timmons, Harrison), and 1.5 decent DB's (Gay, McCain). Short passes geared toward YAC that replaces the running game, we can't stop it under LeBeau's scheme.