Ocommie should be charged with treason

[ark steel]

It's kind of irrelevant. The torture order itself made no exemption for legal residents or citizens. So whether or not a citizen was or was not tortured, Bush committed treason by giving the order.

Oh, whatever you say.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

how pompous can you possibly be to say that American conservatives are equal to Islamic Conservatives?

we're not questioning MY morals. the topic is that of Bomma and his lack thereof. I'm not the POTUS, or else I'd welcome my **** be attacked. But say something about The Messiah, The Great O, The True Divider, and his minions want to "flip the script" and make it about you. No, jackass, this is not about me. **** you and your ****** up wannabe twist.

Aching levels of butthurt. I must have struck a nerve here.

Fascinating.

First, you never actually addressed the issue of whether or not you actually hold any moral values. Any sense of universal right and wrong. You just sort of got angry and started ranting.

Second, I care nothing for Obama. He means alot to my folks, and that's good for them, but to me he's just another rubber stamp politician. The NSA scandal proved that he IS everything that he claimed he'd change about Washington.

Third, we are questioning YOUR morals because you're the one going around passing judgment on everybody. You deem it just for the American Government to torture people. That is a fundamentally un-American position to take. You put YOUR OWN morals into question when you say things like that.

I'm sure if George ******* Washington were alive today, he and ol' Andrew Jackson would have personally waterboarded that ******** Khalid Sheik Mohammed.

George was a terrorist, so I buy that. If the Red Coats had crossed the Delaware in the wee hours of Christmas night and killed our troops in their sleep we'd be calling it a war crime. But because our side did it, it's a celebrated victory. That's Moral Relativism in a nutshell.

Oh, whatever you say.

I love how you guys all seem to do this. When you lose the argument you throw out these little defeat pellets to signal your surrender.

 

[Steelin]

As I've said on this board many times before: conservatives don't believe in anything. They stand for nothing.

Torture is immoral. Read the 8th Amendment to the US Constitution. It violates not just the letter, but the spirit of the law. But because conservative moral relativism only sees atrocities when they are committed by someone else, it's is allowable in your eyes to commit any heinous act.

American conservatives and Islamic Conservatives are two sides of the same coin. Neither of you will recognize the humanity of the other. You hate them for the same reasons they hate you. You are the same. You are one. The Founding Fathers would be sickened to see what conservatives have turned this country into. Hate mongering, fear mongering, blood thirsty mobs.

Supe: do you have any moral values AT ALL? Anything you believe to be universally immoral that is NOT related to sex in some way (funny how dogmatic you right wingers can be about sex while sanctifying torture)?

Ha...you're against torture? You have morals? Now I've heard it all. In that Micheal Vick thread I would've thought you were all for it. So easy to forgive him for torturing meaningless animals. I'm pretty sure those terrorists are far more culpable and deserving of torture than those poor dogs that were unfortunate enough to fall into Vick's grasp. You don't sound like you have a forgiving spirit here. You haven't forgiven George Bush yet? Really? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

 

[SteelChip]

Torture is immoral. Read the 8th Amendment to the US Constitution. It violates not just the letter, but the spirit of the law. But because conservative moral relativism only sees atrocities when they are committed by someone else, it's is allowable in your eyes to commit any heinous act.

If you are going to quote history SV at least tell the whole story. Bush consulted legal experts before he installed the waterboarding program.

In his new memoir, Mr. Bush defends the use of waterboarding: "At my direction, Department of Justice and CIA lawyers conducted a careful legal review. The enhanced interrogation program complied with the Constitution and all applicable laws, including those that ban torture.

"There were two that I felt went too far, even if they were legal. I directed the CIA not to use them. Another technique was waterboarding, a process of simulated drowning. No doubt the procedure was tough, but medical experts assured the CIA that it did no lasting harm."
http://www.csmonitor.com/World/Glob...-Points-in-Bush-s-war-on-terror/Waterboarding

 

[Steel Vanguard]

Ha...you're against torture? You have morals? Now I've heard it all. In that Micheal Vick thread I would've thought you were all for it. So easy to forgive him for torturing meaningless animals. I'm pretty sure those terrorists are far more culpable and deserving of torture than those poor dogs that were unfortunate enough to fall into Vick's grasp. You don't sound like you have a forgiving spirit here. You haven't forgiven George Bush yet? Really? I'm shocked, shocked I tell you.

Michael Vick is guilty of torture. But he also DID HIS TIME. This discussion is about charging people who have gone unpunished. Vick paid his debt, and has been a model citizen since. He admitted wrongdoing, which neither Bush (for torture) or Obama (for spying) ever have. So it's apples and oranges.

If you are going to quote history SV at least tell the whole story. Bush consulted legal experts before he installed the waterboarding program.

You think you need a legal team to determine that water torture is torture? You can't be serious.

Bush was trying to cover his *** legally, not "define torture". Simulating drowning is torture, period. Hitting people is torture, period. Keeping people awake for 7 days is absolutely torture, and has been known to cause permanent brain damage. You don't need lawyers to tell you that.

Funny thing: he never consulted any physicians or scientists. Only lawyers. That should tell you something.

 

[Rod Farva]

Aching levels of butthurt. I must have struck a nerve here.

Fascinating.

First, you never actually addressed the issue of whether or not you actually hold any moral values. Any sense of universal right and wrong. You just sort of got angry and started ranting.

Second, I care nothing for Obama. He means alot to my folks, and that's good for them, but to me he's just another rubber stamp politician. The NSA scandal proved that he IS everything that he claimed he'd change about Washington.

Third, we are questioning YOUR morals because you're the one going around passing judgment on everybody. You deem it just for the American Government to torture people. That is a fundamentally un-American position to take. You put YOUR OWN morals into question when you say things like that.



George was a terrorist, so I buy that. If the Red Coats had crossed the Delaware in the wee hours of Christmas night and killed our troops in their sleep we'd be calling it a war crime. But because our side did it, it's a celebrated victory. That's Moral Relativism in a nutshell.



I love how you guys all seem to do this. When you lose the argument you throw out these little defeat pellets to signal your surrender.

You're a ******* mental case.

 

[Rod Farva]

Michael Vick is guilty of torture. But he also DID HIS TIME. This discussion is about charging people who have gone unpunished. Vick paid his debt, and has been a model citizen since. He admitted wrongdoing, which neither Bush (for torture) or Obama (for spying) ever have. So it's apples and oranges.




You think you need a legal team to determine that water torture is torture? You can't be serious.

Bush was trying to cover his *** legally, not "define torture". Simulating drowning is torture, period. Hitting people is torture, period. Keeping people awake for 7 days is absolutely torture, and has been known to cause permanent brain damage. You don't need lawyers to tell you that.

Funny thing: he never consulted any physicians or scientists. Only lawyers. That should tell you something.

From Chip's post........No doubt the procedure was tough, but medical experts assured the CIA that it did no lasting harm."

 

[Steel Vanguard]

You're a ******* mental case.

And once again, you don't have **** to say.

Another loser drops a surrender pellet.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

From Chip's post........No doubt the procedure was tough, but medical experts assured the CIA that it did no lasting harm."

Don't buy it.

Unless that "medical expert" was paid a shitload of money, I can't see a physician signing off on torturing people. The Hippocratic oath would prevent it.

 

[ark steel]

But he also DID HIS TIME

Vick did no time for torture.

 

[Steelin]

Michael Vick is guilty of torture. But he also DID HIS TIME. This discussion is about charging people who have gone unpunished. Vick paid his debt, and has been a model citizen since. He admitted wrongdoing, which neither Bush (for torture) or Obama (for spying) ever have. So it's apples and oranges.




You think you need a legal team to determine that water torture is torture? You can't be serious.

Bush was trying to cover his *** legally, not "define torture". Simulating drowning is torture, period. Hitting people is torture, period. Keeping people awake for 7 days is absolutely torture, and has been known to cause permanent brain damage. You don't need lawyers to tell you that.

Funny thing: he never consulted any physicians or scientists. Only lawyers. That should tell you something.

Funny thing that Vick never did a day for torturing animals...not a day. Also, he found nothing with what he did to those animals. You are wrong.

 

[Steelin]

Don't buy it.

Unless that "medical expert" was paid a shitload of money, I can't see a physician signing off on torturing people. The Hippocratic oath would prevent it.

The Hippocratic oath has been so watered down that infanticide is no longer a "problem". I studied the "evolution" of that oath. It's pretty telling. How do you feel about abortion?

 

[IndySteel]

They fly planes into buildings and chop off heads, so who gives a ****?

 

[Steelin]

They fly planes into buildings and chop off heads, so who gives a ****?

Liberal moral relativism. Ain't it grand?

 

[SteelChip]

You think you need a legal team to determine that water torture is torture? You can't be serious.

Bush was trying to cover his *** legally, not "define torture". Simulating drowning is torture, period. Hitting people is torture, period. Keeping people awake for 7 days is absolutely torture, and has been known to cause permanent brain damage. You don't need lawyers to tell you that.

Funny thing: he never consulted any physicians or scientists. Only lawyers. That should tell you something.

What tells me something is that you spout opinions as gospel. Someone must have instilled a severe narcissistic attitude in you at some time in your life to give you a reason to think anyone cares what you think about what is legal, moral or absolute fact. You say it's torture, I say it's a perfectly legitimate means to finding the truth and saving lives. No amount of bleeding heart bombastic statements will change the facts, they just show that you have a partisan preconceived notion.

Fine, think what you want...doesn't mean you're right and it doesn't mean we have to agree with you.

 

[Stewey]

You are the same. You are one. The Founding Fathers would be sickened to see what conservatives have turned this country into. Hate mongering, fear mongering, blood thirsty mobs.

You mean those Conservative hate and fear mongering mobs at Trump rallys? Those Conservative Occupy Wall Steet buffoons, and those phony Black Lives Matter fear mongerers?

If every one of you liberal scum left the country America would thrive, but if every Conservative left the country it rots in hell. You need conservatives more than they need you, in fact we don't need you at all.

Just think, with no conservatives around all you ******* atop you perch of superiority could now open your compassionate hearts and with a smile give away the fruits of you labor to anyone with their hands out without conservatives telling you that you shouldn't.
Free college, free medical care, free **** for everyone, all to be paid for by you white guilt bleeding heart lefties.

And since guns would be outlawed, only the inner city thugs would have them... that might pose a problem however.
Open the borders to everyone, feed them, nurture them,support them... teach them that raping women is frowned upon.

Gradually all you a-holes become conservative.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

The Hippocratic oath has been so watered down that infanticide is no longer a "problem". I studied the "evolution" of that oath. It's pretty telling. How do you feel about abortion?

Not a fan. But I'm even less a fan of banning things. Drugs, guns, abortion, gambling, hookers, gay marriage, etc. Lots of things that other people do that we don't like are none of our business.

It's a shame Civil Libertarians don't have party. We could really get this country back to it's constitutional roots.

They fly planes into buildings and chop off heads, so who gives a ****?

The Founding Fathers did. We don't torture mass shooters either. Should Dylan Roof have been tortured? How about James Holmes?

You either have principles or you don't. Most conservatives don't.

What tells me something is that you spout opinions as gospel. Someone must have instilled a severe narcissistic attitude in you at some time in your life to give you a reason to think anyone cares what you think about what is legal, moral or absolute fact. You say it's torture, I say it's a perfectly legitimate means to finding the truth and saving lives. No amount of bleeding heart bombastic statements will change the facts, they just show that you have a partisan preconceived notion.

Fine, think what you want...doesn't mean you're right and it doesn't mean we have to agree with you.

Well that was defeatist.

You basically defined moral relativism. Torture is not controversial. Neither is terrorism. The definitions of these words have been around for generations. But when people want to engage in heinous acts, they must have some cover to avoid moral scrutiny. So lately, the last 30 years or so, we've set out to redefine words. It started with Lee Atwater and continues with Frank Luntz.

You can pretend you don't think water torture, beating, and sleep deprivation are torture. But you know they are, and it's easy to see right through you. Rather than simply admitting candidly that you think torture is justified, you want the world to believe that you're too stupid to understand what torture is. Today's modern politic is full of this sort of feigned ignorance. Trump is constantly pretending he isn't aware of things he's already commented on in the past. It's cheap, and it's beneath you.

Man up and try again with a real argument.

You mean those Conservative hate and fear mongering mobs at Trump rallys? Those Conservative Occupy Wall Steet buffoons, and those phony Black Lives Matter fear mongerers?

Never said it was ONLY conservatives. But on this particular issue, conservatives are particularly hypocritical.

If every one of you liberal scum left the country America would thrive, but if every Conservative left the country it rots in hell. You need conservatives more than they need you, in fact we don't need you at all.

Just think, with no conservatives around all you ******* atop you perch of superiority could now open your compassionate hearts and with a smile give away the fruits of you labor to anyone with their hands out without conservatives telling you that you shouldn't.
Free college, free medical care, free **** for everyone, all to be paid for by you white guilt bleeding heart lefties.

And since guns would be outlawed, only the inner city thugs would have them... that might pose a problem however.
Open the borders to everyone, feed them, nurture them,support them... teach them that raping women is frowned upon.

Gradually all you a-holes become conservative.

You have intentionally misrepresented my views. Show me where I've been anti-gun.

 

[SteelChip]

You can pretend you don't think water torture, beating, and sleep deprivation are torture. But you know they are, and it's easy to see right through you

See what I'm sayin' here. Now your tellin' me what I'm thinkin. Lord knows it would indeed be stupid to argue with some bleeding heart libtard that can read minds over the internet. I'll pass.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

See what I'm sayin' here. Now your tellin' me what I'm thinkin. Lord knows it would indeed be stupid to argue with some bleeding heart libtard that can read minds over the internet. I'll pass.

You're trying to tell me that you're an idiot who can't read a dictionary. The fact that you can search and find all these fun graphics PROVES that you are not a functional illiterate. Therefor your actions give light to the lie in your own words.

 

[Superman]

Aching levels of butthurt. I must have struck a nerve here.

Fascinating.

First, you never actually addressed the issue of whether or not you actually hold any moral values. Any sense of universal right and wrong. You just sort of got angry and started ranting.

Second, I care nothing for Obama. He means alot to my folks, and that's good for them, but to me he's just another rubber stamp politician. The NSA scandal proved that he IS everything that he claimed he'd change about Washington.

Third, we are questioning YOUR morals because you're the one going around passing judgment on everybody. You deem it just for the American Government to torture people. That is a fundamentally un-American position to take. You put YOUR OWN morals into question when you say things like that.



George was a terrorist, so I buy that. If the Red Coats had crossed the Delaware in the wee hours of Christmas night and killed our troops in their sleep we'd be calling it a war crime. But because our side did it, it's a celebrated victory. That's Moral Relativism in a nutshell.



I love how you guys all seem to do this. When you lose the argument you throw out these little defeat pellets to signal your surrender.

My beliefs, since Steel Vanguard has such an interest:
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

I believe there is a right and wrong in most cases.
I dont believe in lying, cheating or stealing.
I don't believe in violence (unless it's in a sporting event)
I don't believe in taking life (unless it's in war or to prevent others from dying)
I don't believe in penalizing prosperity
I believe anyone who touches a kid in any sexual manner is a sick, disgusting piece of ****
I believe that there are instances where people must put their morals and dignity aside to ensure peace and civilization for those who are peaceful and civilized
I believe if you touch me or my family or friends, that I'm right in putting my morals and beliefs aside
I believe this is the greatest country in the world and whomever is in 2nd is distant

Now, that's a small sample. Where is your list, oh high and mighty?

George Washington did what he did so you and others like you could sit here as free people and criticize him using today's mores and applying them to his time.

What is fascinating is that you have "forgiven" Vick for torturing defenseless animals, but have an issue with our gov't using torture on sadistic animals to ensure the safety of you and your family and friends.

 

[hamster]

The Founding Fathers did. We don't torture mass shooters either. Should Dylan Roof have been tortured? How about James Holmes?

You either have principles or you don't. Most conservatives don't.

.

Here is a principle.....they shouldn't be tortured. They should be shot.

 

[Steel Vanguard]

My beliefs, since Steel Vanguard has such an interest:
Life, Liberty and the pursuit of Happiness.

That's a good start. From that can I assume you oppose nanny state laws about gay marriage, drugs and gambling?

I believe there is a right and wrong in most cases.

When it comes to social interactions, I think there's a lot of grey area. But when it comes to violent crime, property crime, and corruption, I agree. Too much of our criminal justice system is wrapped up in social engineering instead of catching burglars, robbers and car thieves.

I dont believe in lying, cheating or stealing.

I agree again. Although, having been married, some lying is inevitable. Yes dear, your new haircut makes you look JUST LIKE Jennifer Lawrence.

I don't believe in violence (unless it's in a sporting event)

You believe in torture. Torture is violence.

I don't believe in taking life (unless it's in war or to prevent others from dying)

I'm a soldier. From my perspective war is a necessary evil. Imagine what the world would look like if Hitler had gotten the bomb before we did. Scary. Having said that, I think we've used warfare inappropriately in recent decades. Terrorists are criminals. Framing the conflict with Islamic Terrorists as war between the West and Islam elevates criminals to a level of legitimacy that they do not deserve. They should be treated no better than the guys who break into women's apartment to rape them, or people who beat their children.

I don't believe in penalizing prosperity

Agreed. Flat tax, ban all deductions. Tax everything at the same rate (cap gains, income, estates, etc.)

I believe anyone who touches a kid in any sexual manner is a sick, disgusting piece of ****

Fair enough. People with mental problems should be treated. Sooner rather than later, so as to prevent acting out in the first place. Driving them underground makes them more dangerous.

I believe that there are instances where people must put their morals and dignity aside to ensure peace and civilization for those who are peaceful and civilized

I think the instances where "total war" is necessary are rare, and the need for such tactics often exaggerated to justify horrible atrocities. This goes back to the torture discussion. We are not anywhere near being destroyed by terrorism, so there's no need to even consider Extinction Level Event tactics at this stage.

I believe if you touch me or my family or friends, that I'm right in putting my morals and beliefs aside

Which is to say, you don't really have morals. You have a convenient set of rules you expect others to follow, which you will throw out at a moments notice whenever it suits you. As I said, these are the words of someone who has no principles. Whatever is emotionally expedient for you at any moment is what you'll do, and you have a built in set of excuses for why your own supposed morals don't apply. This is modern conservatism in a nutshell.

I believe this is the greatest country in the world and whomever is in 2nd is distant

I'm as American as they come. There are no immigrants in my family going back before the Civil War, after which the trail goes cold. I love America, and while I don't think she's in danger of imminent implosion, I do think we would do well to get her back to her roots. Civil liberties must be restored. Infrastructure must be restored. And our politicians should be more than stuffed shirt talking heads, money grubbing lobby ****** and hate spewing demagogues.

Now, that's a small sample. Where is your list, oh high and mighty?

As a civil libertarian I believe that if the Left and Right would get out of each other's business most of the things both sides want could be achieved. Guns and drugs are a perfect example. If the Left would let the Right have their guns and the Right would legalize drugs, both sides would get what they actually wanted. But for some reason, people just have this thing about controlling what OTHER PEOPLE do. Live and let live.

As to the issue of Islamic Terrorism, I'm not a fan. However, Israeli Apartheid created the Jihad. There will be no end to hostilities with the Arab and Islamic world and the west until Terrorists are delt with like criminals, and Israeli Apartheid is defunded (which is to say the West divests itself politically and economically). Only then can moderate Muslims be counted on to see the Western world as true to it's principles. "All men are created equal", "Separate is INHERENTLY unequal". You want an end to Islamic extremism, you should be fighting for the Right of Return for the Palestinian people, and a Unified Democratic Holy Land, not the perpetuation of the current segregationist, racialist, Apartheid Zionist Regime.

George Washington did what he did so you and others like you could sit here as free people and criticize him using today's mores and applying them to his time.

Right and wrong don't change over time. "Thou shalt not kill" was written thousands of years ago. You cannot have war without atrocities. There is no such thing. But those atrocities must be recognized, even when committed by us. That's what integrity is. I recognize that the net result of a lot of very bad things has been the creation of a great nation. But we are always at risk of becoming something less than great if we don't recognize our past mistakes.

What is fascinating is that you have "forgiven" Vick for torturing defenseless animals, but have an issue with our gov't using torture on sadistic animals to ensure the safety of you and your family and friends.

Apples and oranges. I'm not advocating the release of detainees. I'm advocating for them to have a proper legal due process and to be treated humanely because that's what integrity is. Doing the right thing in the face of adversity. Standing for something larger than yourself. Having the courage to sacrifice for principles, rather than just keeping them on hand as a weapon to bludgeon others with, then abandoning them at the first sign of trouble.

 

[deljzc]

Steel.. All good points.

I just don't like your jump to a conclusion that "Most Conservative Don't Have Principles". That doesn't make sense to me because it implies "Most Liberals Have Principles". And I see no evidence of that.

I think liberals and conservatives both have a lot of flaws. And I'm not convinced at all that the political left represents anything on the list above that much better than the political right. If anything, defending the Constitution as the greatest law of the land, is much more a politically "right" statement than the politically left. It's the politically left that wants the "law" to morph and change with the social and moral wind of the times and puts that power more and more into unelected judges rather than the "majority".

And while I can see the argument on both sides of that debate, it certainly isn't CLEAR which is better.

 

[IndySteel]

They should be shot.

Only after their fingers get chopped off, knuckle by knuckle, one at a time, until we find out what we need to know.

 

[Superman]

"Modern conservatism"

If that means that we can have a civil discussion, then, yes. If that means that I should sit idly by while some shitbag rapes, beats, harms or tries to kill one of my family or friends, then you can kindly shove your modern conservatism in your ***.