Steeler Identity

[SteelBuckeye]

I'm wondering where's the evidence (not opinion) that Tomlin is "buddy buddy" with the players? Maybe I've missed the articles about this being a concern anyplace other than message boards (and that is entirely possible). Hell, Cowher high fived players and did all that other rah rah chin stuck out yelling and cheering and it didn't seem to be a problem. Chuck Noll? Definitely not his style.

 

[Vader]

I have no idea if Tomlin is buddy-buddy with the players. I really don't care because all coaches have different styles. Hell Pete Carroll seems like a chummy guy with his players and they seem to be doing well. I'm more worried about X's and O's, draft picks and HC responsibilities with Tomlin than I am his particular style of coaching. It just seems like Tombert hasn't been able to find players to replace the players that are retiring. Brown is about the only player who I can say is "above the line" since Tombert took over. Is there anybody else on the team that they've draft that is as good or better than the guy they inherited? Something is either wrong in Tombert's draft evaluations or the coaches suck at coaching them in their schemes.

 

[diver]

I know this isn't a popular opinion, because we always need someone to blame. However, I think a lot of it is just good old fashioned luck, or fate or whatever. The Seahawks are the pretty girl at the dance right now, so they are everyone's example. Even if they win a few more Super Bowls, their run will come to an end, and it will be somebody else. If history teaches us anything about the NFL, it teaches us that. Good teams and organizations go through ups and then slight downs. All of the good organizations do, and the Steelers may be going through one of those now. Tell me one that hasn't.

I guess I just don't believe that the Steeler organization all of the sudden became geniuses in the 1970s. There was loads of luck in that. If you know a little about the Bill Nunn story, how he came to work for the Steelers and find that Southern small black school talent was just fate. Stallworth lasting till the 4th? That whole draft? C'mon. It was their time. Like it is Seattle's time right now, perhaps.

This is not to say the Steelers haven't made mistakes. I don't know how in the hell they took Jarvis Jones. I am not setting myself up to be anything as it comes to talent, but I watched him in college a bit, and was not impressed. But when you are on, when luck is going your way, you go another direction. When it isn't, you use the 17th pick on a player like that.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

This:

The league has evolved into a quick passing scheme for the most part. That scheme has been the achillies heel of this team for as long as I can remember. We also do not have the talent we used to have and the problem is amplified. I think the shazier pick was an attempt to help the problem and close off the short middle. I dont mind the pick, but they should have looked for cb / olb help somewhere. Say what you want, but there is no way the coaches can be happy with how jarvis has looked. To this point Michael Sam has shown more than Jarvis which is sad to me. We are going to have to build the D from scratch again, starting with the D-line. Hopefully McCullers will work out, but that is asking a lot

Although I do think that Tombert for the most part has not drafted well, you can't leave out the fact that the league and the officials took the Steelers' game away. It would take a while to retool for the new NFL even if you knew what you were doing.

 

[doggfather69]

Tomlin has turned the Steelers into the Vikings. It's a total joke.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

"They are who we thought they are" ~Dennis Green

Playoffs? Playoffs? Don't be talking about playoffs.

 

[Vincent]

Tomlin has turned the Steelers into the Vikings. It's a total joke.

Tomlin has turned the Steelers into the Ferguson QuikTrips.

 

[keslerclan]

Wasn't that long ago a lot of people were saying "Tomlin won with Cowher's players" and got pounded for it...not anymore.

 

[Steeltime]

So is the 2-5-4 the new base defense? Or is it just an experiment like Tomlin telling Suisham not to kick the ball through the end zone so coverage could be tested?

If they're just toying with all of this, hope the team is ready for Sept. 7

If Tomlin believes that he can have the team screw around in pre-season, and give little attention to preparing these players, this team, as if these pre-season games were a precursor for the games that matter - and making the team play like they gave a damn - then we have reason for concern.

That is because practice does NOT make perfect; instead, "Perfect practice makes perfect." Practice like you play - with discipline, effort, attention to detail, and attitude.

In other words, the opposite of what we saw last Thursday.

 

[Steeltime]

I guess I just don't believe that the Steeler organization all of the sudden became geniuses in the 1970s. There was loads of luck in that. If you know a little about the Bill Nunn story, how he came to work for the Steelers and find that Southern small black school talent was just fate. Stallworth lasting till the 4th? That whole draft? C'mon. It was their time. Like it is Seattle's time right now, perhaps.

I don't know how in the hell they took Jarvis Jones. I am not setting myself up to be anything as it comes to talent, but I watched him in college a bit, and was not impressed. But when you are on, when luck is going your way, you go another direction. When it isn't, you use the 17th pick on a player like that.

These two observations are directly related, and pretty much explain the success of the 1970's Steelers, the success of the current Seahawks, and the struggles of the current Steelers: an advanced ability to spot and develop talent.

Only the Steelers saw how good Stallworth was; after taking Swann in the 1st, Noll was concerned that Stallworth would not be there in the 4th. (The Steelers had traded away their 3rd round pick.) But Bill Nunn knew that other teams completely underestimated Stallworth, and the defensive staff was adamant that the team not go offense with both of the first 2 picks. The Steelers scouting allowed the Steelers to draft another guy in the 2nd round that other teams basically ignored - Jack Lambert.

So the Steelers superior scouting allowed them to get Swann, Lambert and Stallworth with the first 3 picks.

Today, the Seahawks get Russell Wilson in the 3rd round, Richard Sherman in the 5th round, Kam Chancellor in the 5th round, Max Unger in the 2nd round, and two dominant players with the 6th and 14th picks in 2010 (Russell Okung and Earl Thomas). Their scouting is finding All-Pro players.

As you point out, of late, the Steelers' scouting of late has brought them a superb 6th round WR (Brown), a very good LT in the 7th round (Beachum), but a lot of mediocrity in the 1st round (Rashard Mendenhall, Ziggy Hood, Jarvis Jones). Cannot fail with 1st round selections so frequently and expect to have the talent to compete in the NFL.

 

[diver]

These two observations are directly related, and pretty much explain the success of the 1970's Steelers, the success of the current Seahawks, and the struggles of the current Steelers: an advanced ability to spot and develop talent.

Only the Steelers saw how good Stallworth was; after taking Swann in the 1st, Noll was concerned that Stallworth would not be there in the 4th. (The Steelers had traded away their 3rd round pick.) But Bill Nunn knew that other teams completely underestimated Stallworth, and the defensive staff was adamant that the team not go offense with both of the first 2 picks. The Steelers scouting allowed the Steelers to draft another guy in the 2nd round that other teams basically ignored - Jack Lambert.

So the Steelers superior scouting allowed them to get Swann, Lambert and Stallworth with the first 3 picks.

Today, the Seahawks get Russell Wilson in the 3rd round, Richard Sherman in the 5th round, Kam Chancellor in the 5th round, Max Unger in the 2nd round, and two dominant players with the 6th and 14th picks in 2010 (Russell Okung and Earl Thomas). Their scouting is finding All-Pro players.

As you point out, of late, the Steelers' scouting of late has brought them a superb 6th round WR (Brown), a very good LT in the 7th round (Beachum), but a lot of mediocrity in the 1st round (Rashard Mendenhall, Ziggy Hood, Jarvis Jones). Cannot fail with 1st round selections so frequently and expect to have the talent to compete in the NFL.

I agree with this to a point, but cannot help to realize that the same guys who drafted so well from 1969 to 1974 took Greg Hawthorne, Mark Malone, Keith Gary and Walter Ambercrombie in successive drafts just a few years later. They took Gabe Rivera over Dan Marino. Now Rivera may have become a great player, but that is where luck enters in.

I just think Seattle is hitting right now. That'll change, and they won't look like geniuses anymore. I know this theory doesn't provide answers, but I don't know that there are any for sure ones.

 

[Wingman]

Luck is what happens when you have a plan and execute it. When Noll was hired he was an experienced young coach from Shula's staff. He had also played the game and understood it at the pro level. Cowher came from some head coaches with experience and played the game prior to coaching. Both of those guys were much further along in their development than the guy we have now, who as I understand was not good enough to make an nfl team as a player and gain experience through some time as a player. It does not appear that there is a plan with the team. there does not seem to be a consistent direction or set of goals. So when one does not have a plan bad luck is what ensues. Had a good plan been developed good luck would have likely followed.

 

[diver]

Luck is what happens when you have a plan and execute it. When Noll was hired he was an experienced young coach from Shula's staff. He had also played the game and understood it at the pro level. Cowher came from some head coaches with experience and played the game prior to coaching. Both of those guys were much further along in their development than the guy we have now, who as I understand was not good enough to make an nfl team as a player and gain experience through some time as a player. It does not appear that there is a plan with the team. there does not seem to be a consistent direction or set of goals. So when one does not have a plan bad luck is what ensues. Had a good plan been developed good luck would have likely followed.

What happened to the plan for the Steelers through the 1980s? Explain that to me. Same guys drafting, same plan as in the 70s. All the sudden they get stupid?

Thing is, I would bet the farm that if those guys were in a room and were asked if to some degree they got lucky in the 70s, they would, to a man, agree with that assessment. Some of you guys need to assign blame. That's fine, I guess. Whatever makes you feel better.

It's football. Nobody is a genius.

 

[Wingman]

Lets make this simple in the seventies and the first year of the 80s they won 4 super bowls. They also went to the playoffs and did not get to the big game on occasion as well. The players got old and had to be replaced. When Noll was building the dynasty he was drafting very high and was able to do well. Once the team began wining they continually drafted lower and had choices of lower quality players. After 4 super bowls they had to rebuild and it takes a while. When Cowher got here he used what Noll had and continued to build on it. He went to the playoffs his first six years. Both Noll and Cowher built a team and did something with it. The guy we have has not and the needle is continuing down. I hope that explains things for you. One other little factoid during that run of years encompassing Noll and Cowher the steelers were in the only six team division in the NFL which made getting to the playoffs a bit tougher than teams that had 4 team divisions.

 

[diver]

Lets make this simple in the seventies and the first year of the 80s they won 4 super bowls. They also went to the playoffs and did not get to the big game on occasion as well. The players got old and had to be replaced. When Noll was building the dynasty he was drafting very high and was able to do well. Once the team began wining they continually drafted lower and had choices of lower quality players. After 4 super bowls they had to rebuild and it takes a while. When Cowher got here he used what Noll had and continued to build on it. He went to the playoffs his first six years. Both Noll and Cowher built a team and did something with it. The guy we have has not and the needle is continuing down. I hope that explains things for you. One other little factoid during that run of years encompassing Noll and Cowher the steelers were in the only six team division in the NFL which made getting to the playoffs a bit tougher than teams that had 4 team divisions.

In '81, they drafted 17th overall and took Keith Gary. In '82, they drafted 12th and took Walter Ambercrombie. In '85 they drafted 20th and took Daryl Sims. In '86 they drafted 9th and came up with John Reinstra. Hardly way down in the first round. Interestly, sort of around the same area Tomlin is picking now, depending on the year. They came up with some good ones with Louis Lipps and Rod Woodson, of course. But Tomlin has drafted some guys #1 overall that would be on par with Lipps.

The Steelers were pretty successful from 2004 to 2010. Those guys got old, retired. It may take a while.

Noll didn't have to deal with free agency. Balances the division thing out, and Cowher certainly has his struggles.

Look, I wish there was an easy answer. If we knew the answer was to fire Tomlin and Colbert and it would magically turn around, I'd be all for it. I have no allegiance to either guy. It just isn't that simple.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Vader - thank you for posting "Steeler Identity" and not "Steelers Identity". The proper form of the the Steeler adjective.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Vader - thank you for posting "Steeler Identity" and not "Steelers Identity". The proper form of the the Steeler adjective.

****, on my coat / hat / decals / helmet / flag / banner / you get the drift, it's spelled S-T-E-E-L-E-R-S I'm just wondering if I need to change them? Just a question, I'm sure I'm up for a proper lesson as
many here have said I can't spell or punctuate worth a ****.


Salute the nation

 

[Spike]

Why are trying to suck Vader's dick?

Did he threaten to cut&run and leave too?

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Why are trying to suck Vader's dick?

Did he threaten to cut&run and leave too?

da **** are you talking about?

 

[CharlesDavenport]

****, on my coat / hat / decals / helmet / flag / banner / you get the drift, it's spelled S-T-E-E-L-E-R-S I'm just wondering if I need to change them? Just a question, I'm sure I'm up for a proper lesson as
many here have said I can't spell or punctuate worth a ****.


Salute the nation

kids. Yes, if you have a "Steelers Country" banner. Throw it out.

 

[Vader]

Vader - thank you for posting "Steeler Identity" and not "Steelers Identity". The proper form of the the Steeler adjective.

Nit picking huh? Actually it would be "Steelers' Identity" since it is possessive?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Nit picking huh? Actually it would be "Steelers' Identity" since it is possessive?

My mom the retired English teacher sends you karma.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Nit picking huh? Actually it would be "Steelers' Identity" since it is possessive?

I thought so, and glad I don't need new stuff.


Salute the nation

 

[Wingman]

The steelers don't have any identity now unless it is to be standing at the corner of lost and confused with an expired bus ticket. As to the firing of Tomlin at this point it might not make much of a difference. It also might. The team is really into rebuilding this year and next and likely the next as well. Tombert looks like they have made some decent picks this year and last year as well as some WTFs. Tomlin being the inexperienced guy that became a head coach may have finally gotten the experience he needed to take the next step in development, or not. This years picks look better to me than many.
We have still had some bone headed recent choices, like Jarvis, the franchise of Worilds, just to toss out a couple. However if MT is now getting it and has a plan that can be implemented it would be a shame to dump him now. One other thought with this guy, we may have seemed to be in disarray because of his learning process. He may have had some plans and ideas and found that they did not work and changed them, which would account for the seeming disarray and confusion that we have seen. Sometimes when you pick a guy with little experience because he does not have bad habits that you have to break you find out he does not have any good ones either, and must learn those along the way.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Good post wingman, thank you. This team can be either good, bad, or ugly.



Salute the nation