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The right wing 'China won't curb their emissions' argument goes down in flames

There is no global warming? lol how do you feel about gravity? This is basic physics....no one with half a brain says "There is no global warming." Unbelievable.

Here you go since one of you here likes cartoons IIRC, this one should cover most of you. Replace the Kardashians at the end with "Who did the Steelers draft" and we're golden.

2014Toon22.jpg

Its far from that simple... its not basic physics.. its extremely complex chemistry with more variables than can be accounted for. look, I am a moderate, but an extreme moderate. I have virtually no respect left for the far left and far right because they are both so damn arrogant about things they don't know five ***** about... Id bet people don't even know what the real concept of global warming is... because it isn't just a climate change... that happens with some regularity every couple thousand years... Heck as recently as the 1400's Spanish conquistadors sailed into areas that are now deserts... and we have built tons of cities on areas that we know were either underwater or subject to ultra destructive weather patters repeatedly throughout history.

the Idea of global warming is an exponential increase in CO2, leading to increased temperatures that lead to reduced vegetation until the world is left a barren wasteland with a climate like Mars... the problem is there are known natural remedies for this... holes in the Ozone are now known to have happened in multiple ages of this planet... natural pollution can supersede anything we put out in times of massive volcanic activity... Coal is not much different than burning wood.. the Carbon factor of both are about the same... forest fires, volcanoes, these always add to the overall pollution of the world... when that gets to a point the world reacts violently with massive storms to reset the balance. it would likely take a cataclysmic event to offset that failsafe...

As I said many times before... the idea that 97% of scientists back global warming as advertised is utterly false... Without ranting too much longer the utter falsification of data that has been exposed and even acknowledged by the people who ran the initial studies that so many others based their further studies off of is comical... some of them basically made the numbers read what they wanted... others cherrypicked locations and times for their research...

The issue is multifaceted... is the worlds climate changing... perhaps, but is it tied to man made pollution... we aren't even close to being sure about that... in fact, some of the pollution controls could be directly leading to some ofg the funky weather... there is a theory that reducing the SO2 levels may actually be leading to warmer temperatures... like I said... very advanced chemistry... its not as simple as turn off the power plants and that fixes anything...
 
Its far from that simple... its not basic physics.. its extremely complex chemistry with more variables than can be accounted for. look, I am a moderate, but an extreme moderate. I have virtually no respect left for the far left and far right because they are both so damn arrogant about things they don't know five ***** about... Id bet people don't even know what the real concept of global warming is... because it isn't just a climate change... that happens with some regularity every couple thousand years... Heck as recently as the 1400's Spanish conquistadors sailed into areas that are now deserts... and we have built tons of cities on areas that we know were either underwater or subject to ultra destructive weather patters repeatedly throughout history.

the Idea of global warming is an exponential increase in CO2, leading to increased temperatures that lead to reduced vegetation until the world is left a barren wasteland with a climate like Mars... the problem is there are known natural remedies for this... holes in the Ozone are now known to have happened in multiple ages of this planet... natural pollution can supersede anything we put out in times of massive volcanic activity... Coal is not much different than burning wood.. the Carbon factor of both are about the same... forest fires, volcanoes, these always add to the overall pollution of the world... when that gets to a point the world reacts violently with massive storms to reset the balance. it would likely take a cataclysmic event to offset that failsafe...

As I said many times before... the idea that 97% of scientists back global warming as advertised is utterly false... Without ranting too much longer the utter falsification of data that has been exposed and even acknowledged by the people who ran the initial studies that so many others based their further studies off of is comical... some of them basically made the numbers read what they wanted... others cherrypicked locations and times for their research...

The issue is multifaceted... is the worlds climate changing... perhaps, but is it tied to man made pollution... we aren't even close to being sure about that... in fact, some of the pollution controls could be directly leading to some ofg the funky weather... there is a theory that reducing the SO2 levels may actually be leading to warmer temperatures... like I said... very advanced chemistry... its not as simple as turn off the power plants and that fixes anything...

Your post is nothing but a long winded monologue based on utter nonsense. Of course chemistry is involved but the physics problem at its core is the conversion of short wave energy(sun light) to long wave(infrared) and the added Co2 WHICH WE KNOW WE HAVE ADDED absorbing and re-emitting that energy back to the earth. We can account for all the natural forcings, there is no 'mysterious' cycle or forcing that is not known. That is why I say your post is nonsense.

You're right in that only the experts should speak on this matter. Here is a visual so you can better see your position, I'll give you a clue you're in the red..infrared.

Of course this graphic represents another extremist lie according to you, that's what you have to hang your hat on conspiracy theory. That is a truly ignorant or 'extreme' position if I ever saw one.

consensus_500.jpg
 
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I'll say this. Those climate experts are getting really good at explaining why warming hasn't happened like they predicted. Wind did it. Ocean swallowed it. Reminds me of the game of thrones southpark episode "Oh, the dragons are coming... You better believe it..."
 
Your post is nothing but a long winded monologue based on utter nonsense. Of course chemistry is involved but the physics problem at its core is the conversion of short wave energy(sun light) to long wave(infrared) and the added Co2 WHICH WE KNOW WE HAVE ADDED absorbing and remitting that energy back to the earth. We can account for all the natural forcings, there is no 'mysterious' cycle or forcing that is not known. That is why I say your post is nonsense.

You're right in that only the experts should speak on this matter. Here is a visual so you can better see your position, I'll give you a clue you're in the red..infrared.

Of course this graphic represents another extremist lie according to you, that's what you have to hang your hat on conspiracy theory. That is a truly ignorant or 'extreme' position if I ever saw one.

consensus_500.jpg

You do realize I am an air emissions tester... right... its what I do for a living... we laugh all the way to the bank with guys like you... again... you take this stuff however you want... almost no one in our field buys it the way you read it... read my other posts... CO2 NDIR testing? Etremely dependant on voltage... the readings they get are so skewed its hilarious... yes I can go to a city, or even a nice area close to a roadway and pull 400ppm Co2 readings from ambient air... I can also grab a few fragments of PPM of Nox and So2... that's because of localized pollution... in rural areas without trimmed and paved areas its far closer to .3, which if they were not biasing their data incorrectly, you would see more often.. observe...

Lets say you read 400ppm CO2... Before you started you fed pure nitrogen through your analyzer and read 20ppm, then you fed 600ppm Co2 calibration gas standards and read 620ppm afterwards you fed pure nitrogen into it again and read 30ppm, then you checked your upscale gas again and read 630... despite reading 400ppm for the actual test, the real number you should be reporting is 375ppm... these data pulls rarely follow that EPA mandated math... they often use expected readings to set spans, or even worse calibrate to a number far higher than they are going to read. there are books of issues with many of these studies...

I go to the EPA conferences... I realize how out of touch the public is with reality... two weeks from now I will be in Oklahoma because the EPA randomly decided that NO2 to NO emmissions are 1:1 on all sources... no science or testing involved... they pulled that number out of a hat for regulations that the state is fighting because it makes no sense stoicometrically...


Don't act like im the crackpot here... I have the test methods... I have the actual experience... im not just lobbing silly internet logo made to make me feel good about my position... like I said elsewhere... if those CO2 regs pass... I am going to be a very well off man, but it will doom this country and frankly we all know it... Let me just say that the last EPA SES meeting I went to an EPA guy who was called out over a reg that mandated a technology that didn't work for testing at levels that cant be tested at with standards that don't exist and methods of testing that the EPA hadn't yet even formalized basically said "we acknowledge that but the reg is the reg"... don't act like this stuff is based on science... its several theories mashed together and a lot of very poor science on one end
 
I just will never understand how people point to science and ignore that I am one of those guys who uses science... you know repeatable observable facts done in an accurate and unbiased fashion and have come to a conclusion other than what the mainstream pop has... and I can point out hundreds of others who agree, but yet supposedly these unnamed uncredited scientists all should take precedence over what I have seen with my own eyes... and somehow all these major studies are shown to have massive terrible flaws.. to the point that some of these are the basis for some higher members of the scientific community to call for fewer scientific journal publications so harsher scrutiny can be applied before they are universally accepted... and that is good science, but anyone who is saying hey lets slow down.. the facts aren't lining up with the study results are total crackpots...


I really do love the stupidity of this society. Honestly I don't know why I even try to talk sense into anyone... no one wants the happy medium.. its extremist stupidity or else anymore...
 
You do realize I am an air emissions tester... right... its what I do for a living... we laugh all the way to the bank with guys like you... again... you take this stuff however you want... almost no one in our field buys it the way you read it... read my other posts... CO2 NDIR testing? Etremely dependant on voltage... the readings they get are so skewed its hilarious... yes I can go to a city, or even a nice area close to a roadway and pull 400ppm Co2 readings from ambient air... I can also grab a few fragments of PPM of Nox and So2... that's because of localized pollution... in rural areas without trimmed and paved areas its far closer to .3, which if they were not biasing their data incorrectly, you would see more often.. observe...

Lets say you read 400ppm CO2... Before you started you fed pure nitrogen through your analyzer and read 20ppm, then you fed 600ppm Co2 calibration gas standards and read 620ppm afterwards you fed pure nitrogen into it again and read 30ppm, then you checked your upscale gas again and read 630... despite reading 400ppm for the actual test, the real number you should be reporting is 375ppm... these data pulls rarely follow that EPA mandated math... they often use expected readings to set spans, or even worse calibrate to a number far higher than they are going to read. there are books of issues with many of these studies...

I go to the EPA conferences... I realize how out of touch the public is with reality... two weeks from now I will be in Oklahoma because the EPA randomly decided that NO2 to NO emmissions are 1:1 on all sources... no science or testing involved... they pulled that number out of a hat for regulations that the state is fighting because it makes no sense stoicometrically...


Don't act like im the crackpot here... I have the test methods... I have the actual experience... im not just lobbing silly internet logo made to make me feel good about my position... like I said elsewhere... if those CO2 regs pass... I am going to be a very well off man, but it will doom this country and frankly we all know it... Let me just say that the last EPA SES meeting I went to an EPA guy who was called out over a reg that mandated a technology that didn't work for testing at levels that cant be tested at with standards that don't exist and methods of testing that the EPA hadn't yet even formalized basically said "we acknowledge that but the reg is the reg"... don't act like this stuff is based on science... its several theories mashed together and a lot of very poor science on one end

Oh! an air emissions tester....Whoa...(in Keanu Reeves Bill &Ted voice) Well I guess between you, the meteorologists, and Rush Limbaugh I can't grasp why people would waste their time getting PhD's in atmospheric science when we could just ask the guy driving around in the van with the probe on it.......That's what you're trying to do right, to appeal to authority?

O.K. let's play that game, who's authority should I accept someone running around after being trained to use a VOC meter or whatever you use, or people using the best tools (some not available to commercial entities) along with the best minds/educations in the world in that field?

Based on a guess of what your answer will be I'll say this; Next time I see my janitor dumping water on the floor to mop I'll ask him what his opinion is on fluid dynamics....that's the equivalence in terms of arrogance to:

"You do realize I am an air emissions tester... right... its what I do for a living... we laugh all the way to the bank with guys like you... "

You can laugh all the way to your descendant's doom, that's the sad choice clowns like you make for all of us and that's no laughing matter to me and mine.
 
Oh! an air emissions tester....Whoa...(in Keanu Reeves Bill &Ted voice) Well I guess between you, the meteorologists, and Rush Limbaugh I can't grasp why people would waste their time getting PhD's in atmospheric science when we could just ask the guy driving around in the van with the probe on it.......That's what you're trying to do right, to appeal to authority?

O.K. let's play that game, who's authority should I accept someone running around after being trained to use a VOC meter or whatever you use, or people using the best tools (some not available to commercial entities) along with the best minds/educations in the world in that field?

Based on a guess of what your answer will be I'll say this; Next time I see my janitor dumping water on the floor to mop I'll ask him what his opinion is on fluid dynamics....that's the equivalence in terms of arrogance to:

"You do realize I am an air emissions tester... right... its what I do for a living... we laugh all the way to the bank with guys like you... "

You can laugh all the way to your descendant's doom, that's the sad choice clowns like you make for all of us and that's no laughing matter to me and mine.

So you basically have no leg to stand on... and are just trying to dismiss me... that's fine... Like I said, I make out with this. Im no republican conservative... Im not some democrat liberal... I have no stake in coal per se. I don't have an agenda. outside of knowing the politics behind what is going on. I can perform tests and report results... I would love coal to eventually be worked out... its a dirty process. I think fracking is terrible. We just are not at the point that it can happen without a serious switch to new nukes

I can do the stoiciometric math. I know there has been a small increase in worldwide CO2... but it far beneath what is claimed... its not worth a knee jerk reaction that has clear cut monetary gains for the people enacting it... if the increase was as dramatic as they recently claimed it wouldn't have plateaued for no reason whatsoever. The sat testing lasers are experiencing the same voltage degradation we see all the time... there is ample reason to question this all and the fact that one side is demonizing anyone who does is just absurd
 
as the climate change scam marches on

It's all fake - with fake data that the enviro nazi's lap up like gullible guppies


Scientists Admit Polar Bear Numbers Were Faked

Researchers with the IUCN Polar Bear Specialist Group (PBSG) recently admitted to experienced zoologist and polar bear specialist Susan Crockford that the estimate given for the total number of polar bars in the Arctic was “simply a qualified guess given to satisfy public demand.”

Crockford has been critical of official polar bear population estimates because they fail to include five large subpopulations of polar bears. Due to the uncertainty of the populations in these areas, PBSG did not include them in their official estimate — but the polar bear group did include other subpopulation estimates.

PBSG has for years said that global polar bear populations were between 20,000 and 25,000, but these estimates are likely much lower than how many polar bears are actually living in the world.

“Based on previous PBSG estimates and other research reports, it appears there are probably at least another 6,000 or so bears living in these regions and perhaps as many as 9,000 (or more) that are not included in any PBSG ‘global population estimate,’” Crockford wrote on her blog.

http://polarbearscience.com/2014/05...al-population-estimate-was-a-qualified-guess/

----------------------

"a qualified guess given to satisfy public demand”

read, "if it's not hysterical enough, nobody will listen!"


here's your "scientists"....


Al Gore’s ‘polarbeargate’ scientist forced to retire

JUNEAU, Alaska — An Alaska scientist whose observations of drowned polar bears helped galvanize the global warming movement has retired as part of a settlement with a federal agency.

Charles Monnett was briefly suspended in 2011 from his work with the U.S. Bureau of Ocean Energy Management, Regulation and Enforcement — now known as the Bureau of Ocean Energy Management —during an inspector general's investigation into a polar bear research contract he managed. Investigators in their report released last year said the probe was prompted by a complaint from an Interior Department employee who alleged that Monnett had wrongfully released government records and he and another scientist intentionally omitted or used false data in an article on polar bears.

http://www.nbcnews.com/science/scie...e-over-study-polar-bear-drownings-f2D11691760
 

Just a matter of time when this 97% nonsense gets posted.

““The more people (a-holes like you) believe scientists agree about climate change, the more willing they are to support government action, even when their party affiliation is taken into account,”

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2013/04/29/the-mental-control-of-the-97-consensus-myth-spans-politics/


So what else did those 97% say?

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/07/18/what-else-did-the-97-of-scientists-say/

Need more?

http://newsbusters.org/blogs/mike-c...-percent-scientists-claim-resurfaces-ny-times
 
The "97%" claim is false.

The authors of the "study" claiming that 97% of scientists agree on AGW were wrong. The figure is predicated on nearly 12,000 papers published over a span of more than 30 years, but the clowns claiming the 97% did not actually read the papers - they read the abstracts alone and where a paper referred to food production in the event of global warming, or drought where temperatures increased, the clowns who came up with the 97% bullshit categorized the paper as endorsing a theory of AGW.

The true figures, based upon what the papers ACTUALLY say, and not the phony supposition that any paper referencing global warming endorses the theory of AGW, show that in truth 36% of the cited papers endorsed a theory of AGW, while more than 60% offered no opinion on the issue.

http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/article

This research article sums up the issue:

To get to the truth, I emailed a sample of scientists whose papers were used in the study and asked them if the categorization by Cook et al. (2013) is an accurate representation of their paper. Their responses are eye opening and evidence that the Cook et al. (2013) team falsely classified scientists' papers as "endorsing AGW", apparently believing to know more about the papers than their authors.

One example of the phony claims by the 97% bullshit artists:

Dr. Idso, your paper 'Ultra-enhanced spring branch growth in CO2-enriched trees: can it alter the phase of the atmosphere’s seasonal CO2 cycle?' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as; "Implicitly endorsing AGW without minimizing it".

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?


Idso: "That is not an accurate representation of my paper. The papers examined how the rise in atmospheric CO2 could be inducing a phase advance in the spring portion of the atmosphere's seasonal CO2 cycle. Other literature had previously claimed a measured advance was due to rising temperatures, but we showed that it was quite likely the rise in atmospheric CO2 itself was responsible for the lion's share of the change. It would be incorrect to claim that our paper was an endorsement of CO2-induced global warming."


http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientists.html#Update2

Polo is a modern-day Goebbels: Repeat a lie frequently enough, and it becomes the truth.

The problem with both Polo and Goebbels is that (1) they are lying scumbags and (2) the internet now obliterates bullshit from those clowns.
 
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How about a few more comments, clarifications, and responses from the actual AUTHORS of the articles which the "97%" Nazis claim supported the AGW theory? How about these from authors who were cited as publishing articles supporting the AGW theory. Enjoy, Polo:

Dr. Scafetta, your paper 'Phenomenological solar contribution to the 1900–2000 global surface warming' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as; "Explicitly endorses and quantifies AGW as 50+%"

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?


Scafetta: "Cook et al. (2013) is based on a strawman argument because it does not correctly define the IPCC AGW theory, which is NOT that human emissions have contributed 50%+ of the global warming since 1900 but that almost 90-100% of the observed global warming was induced by human emission.

What my papers say is that the IPCC view is erroneous because about 40-70% of the global warming observed from 1900 to 2000 was induced by the sun. This implies that the true climate sensitivity to CO2 doubling is likely around 1.5 C or less, and that the 21st century projections must be reduced by at least a factor of 2 or more. Of that the sun contributed (more or less) as much as the anthropogenic forcings.


Scafetta: "Please note that it is very important to clarify that the AGW advocated by the IPCC has always claimed that 90-100% of the warming observed since 1900 is due to anthropogenic emissions. While critics like me have always claimed that the data would approximately indicate a 50-50 natural-anthropogenic contribution at most.

What it is observed right now is utter dishonesty by the IPCC advocates. Instead of apologizing and honestly acknowledging that the AGW theory as advocated by the IPCC is wrong because based on climate models that poorly reconstruct the solar signature and do not reproduce the natural oscillations of the climate (AMO, PDO, NAO etc.) and honestly acknowledging that the truth, as it is emerging, is closer to what claimed by IPCC critics like me since 2005, these people are trying to get the credit.



Dr. Shaviv, your paper 'On climate response to changes in the cosmic ray flux and radiative budget' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as; "Explicitly endorses but does not quantify or minimise"

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?

Shaviv: "Nope... it is not an accurate representation. The paper shows that if cosmic rays are included in empirical climate sensitivity analyses, then one finds that different time scales consistently give a low climate sensitiviity. i.e., it supports the idea that cosmic rays affect the climate and that climate sensitivity is low. This means that part of the 20th century should be attributed to the increased solar activity and that 21st century warming under a business as usual scenario should be low (about 1°C).


Any further comment on the Cook et al. (2013) paper?

Shaviv: "Science is not a democracy, even if the majority of scientists think one thing (and it translates to more papers saying so), they aren't necessarily correct. Moreover, as you can see from the above example, the analysis itself is faulty, namely, it doesn't even quantify correctly the number of scientists or the number of papers which endorse or diminish the importance of AGW."


Dr. Tol found 7 papers falsely classified and 112 omitted,

Tol: "WoS lists 122 articles on climate change by me in that period. Only 10 made it into the survey.

I would rate 7 of those as neutral, and 3 as strong endorsement with quantification. Of the 3, one was rated as a weak endorsement (even though it argues that the solar hypothesis is a load of bull). Of the 7, 3 were listed as an implicit endorsement and 1 as a weak endorsement.

... from 112 omitted papers, one strongly endorses AGW and 111 are neutral"

On Twitter Dr. Tol had a heated exchange with one of the "Skeptical Science" authors of Cook et al. (2013) - Dana Nuccitelli,

Tol: "@dana1981 I think your data are a load of crap. Why is that a lie? I really think so."

Tol: "@dana1981 I think your sampling strategy is a load of nonsense. How is that a misrepresentation? Did I falsely describe your sample?"


Dr. Morner, your paper 'Estimating future sea level changes from past records' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as having; "No Position on AGW".

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?

Morner: "Certainly not correct and certainly misleading. The paper is strongly against AGW, and documents its absence in the sea level observational facts. Also, it invalidates the mode of sea level handling by the IPCC."


Dr. Carlin, your paper 'A Multidisciplinary, Science-Based Approach to the Economics of Climate Change' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as; "Explicitly endorses AGW but does not quantify or minimize".

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?

Carlin: "No, if Cook et al's paper classifies my paper, 'A Multidisciplinary, Science-Based Approach to the Economics of Climate Change' as "explicitly endorses AGW but does not quantify or minimize," nothing could be further from either my intent or the contents of my paper. I did not explicitly or even implicitly endorse AGW and did quantify my skepticism concerning AGW. Both the paper and the abstract make this clear.


Any further comment on the Cook et al. (2013) paper?

Carlin: "If Cook et al's paper is so far off in its classification of my paper, the next question is whether their treatment of my paper is an outlier in the quality of their analysis or is representative. Since I understand that five other skeptic paper authors whose papers were classified by Cook et al. (Idso, Morner, Scaffeta, Soon, and Shaviv) have similar concerns to date, the classification problems in Cook's paper may be more general. Further, in all six cases the effect of the misclassifications is to exaggerate Cook et al's conclusions rather than being apparently random errors due to sloppy analysis. Since their conclusions are at best no better than their data, it appears likely that Cook et al's conclusions are exaggerated as well as being unsupported by the evidence that they offer.


http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientists.html#Update2

The next time you feel an urge to proffer the "97% of scientists ..." bullshit, Polo, you may wish to reconsider.

I will, however, be happy to eviscerate that incredible Goebbels-esque lie whenever it is repeated.
 
O.K. let's play that game, who's authority should I accept someone running around after being trained to use a VOC meter or whatever you use, or people using the best tools (some not available to commercial entities) along with the best minds/educations in the world in that field? .
There is no proof that they are the best in the world.....especially if they are from academia. Many choose academia as a career when they realize they couldn't make it in the private sector. I'm going with Mad's assessment. In battle, you have a better chance of getting the facts from the foot soldier, as opposed to the brass in DC.
 
who's authority should I accept someone running around after being trained to use a VOC meter or whatever you use, or people using the best tools (some not available to commercial entities) along with the best minds/educations in the world in that field?

Why don't you cite one - ONE - climate model over the past 25 years that accurately predicted future temperatures.

The entire climate field is predicated on complex computer models that have never been accurate - ever. The field involves changing, refining, explaining, etc. the failed models.

A significant portion of the published papers in the climate science field involve explaining why the computer modeled-projections were inaccurate.

Your experts specialize in being wrong, and then explaining why they were wrong.
 
There is no proof that they are the best in the world.....especially if they are from academia. Many choose academia as a career when they realize they couldn't make it in the private sector. I'm going with Mad's assessment. In battle, you have a better chance of getting the facts from the foot soldier, as opposed to the brass in DC.

He has no idea what he is talking about. He was just trying to bully the debate.... Its typical of this day and age... Tim Benz-ian doofus trying to save face in light of a bushel of facts saying he is wrong.... FTIRs and NDIR analyzers, when calibrated and used correctly, are accurate well within the ranges that we are speaking of... some of the instruments I personally use read accurately into the parts per billion... the accuracy of these analyzers has to be within 2% of a standard before you can even legally start, and in many cases the linear readings are virtually 0% on a three point scale. These are instruments that cost as much as a house in some cases.... If he bothered to read any of the papers from these scientists he is backing they are using the exact same high end equipment I do... save for the sat testing that shoots lasers from space to get general atmospheric readings... that I admit i have no access to... but that is highly suspect due to known voltage degradation and interferent issues, moreover they are calibrating based off of expected readings rather than a known standard... it interjects an error percentage that should be making the supposed increases they keep claiming well within the margin of error and thus virtually useless

so like I said... I can get readings around 400 parts per million in pittsburgh right now. the natural readings should be a bit over 200 parts per million. Lets put this in perspective... Pittsburgh.. a heavily industrialized city that has heavy paving, high traffic, and a significant population, should have a higher CO2 reading than, say, a heavily forested and sparcely populated area of the state. that doesnt make those readings the atmospheric norm. Co2 is HEAVIER than air... it will settle out... when you read these studies they cite the CO2 measured in heavily populated areas as the basis for the expotential growth of CO2... they need to be studying areas that have the least potential CO2, not the concentrated areas if they want to get actual CO2 levels.

Its not what we want to believe... its what the facts say..it is science... and right now there is one side of this debate falsifying data and strecthing the truth and attacking anyone who says we need to take a real objective look at the data before damning this country... if there is global warming that is tied to man made CO2 then we should be able to have multiple repeatable tests that conclude this... one researcher here getting this and another getting that and niether of them can recreate it without shady methods...
 
Why don't you cite one - ONE - climate model over the past 25 years that accurately predicted future temperatures.

The entire climate field is predicated on complex computer models that have never been accurate - ever. The field involves changing, refining, explaining, etc. the failed models.

A significant portion of the published papers in the climate science field involve explaining why the computer modeled-projections were inaccurate.

Your experts specialize in being wrong, and then explaining why they were wrong.

Can you imagine turning in your 6th grade science project with your conclusion and you do not provide the raw data and only show the 'massaged' data or whatever they hell they are calling it? Your teacher would give you an F.
 
Can you imagine turning in your 6th grade science project with your conclusion and you do not provide the raw data and only show the 'massaged' data or whatever they hell they are calling it? Your teacher would give you an F.

Yeah, but only because my 6th grade teacher is a shill for big oil....
 
Can you imagine turning in your 6th grade science project with your conclusion and you do not provide the raw data and only show the 'massaged' data or whatever they hell they are calling it? Your teacher would give you an F.

Today they call this practice "being a Liberal"
 
Why don't you cite one - ONE - climate model over the past 25 years that accurately predicted future temperatures.

The entire climate field is predicated on complex computer models that have never been accurate - ever. The field involves changing, refining, explaining, etc. the failed models.

A significant portion of the published papers in the climate science field involve explaining why the computer modeled-projections were inaccurate.

Your experts specialize in being wrong, and then explaining why they were wrong.

You are truly nuts to make such an ignorant claim. I'll do you one better let's go back to 1988 and see what one of the first models using the computer power of the time could do. Surely it has to be incredibly innacurate..................

Hansen_vs_Lindzen_500.jpg


Comparison of the observed GISTEMP temperature record (black) with temperature predictions from Dr. James Hansen's 1988 modeling study (red), and with our reconstructed temperature prediction by "skeptic" climate scientist Dr. Richard Lindzen based on statements from his talk at MIT in 1989 (blue).
 
The "97%" claim is false.

The authors of the "study" claiming that 97% of scientists agree on AGW were wrong. The figure is predicated on nearly 12,000 papers published over a span of more than 30 years, but the clowns claiming the 97% did not actually read the papers - they read the abstracts alone and where a paper referred to food production in the event of global warming, or drought where temperatures increased, the clowns who came up with the 97% bullshit categorized the paper as endorsing a theory of AGW.

The true figures, based upon what the papers ACTUALLY say, and not the phony supposition that any paper referencing global warming endorses the theory of AGW, show that in truth 36% of the cited papers endorsed a theory of AGW, while more than 60% offered no opinion on the issue.

http://iopscience.iop.org/1748-9326/8/2/024024/article

This research article sums up the issue:

To get to the truth, I emailed a sample of scientists whose papers were used in the study and asked them if the categorization by Cook et al. (2013) is an accurate representation of their paper. Their responses are eye opening and evidence that the Cook et al. (2013) team falsely classified scientists' papers as "endorsing AGW", apparently believing to know more about the papers than their authors.

One example of the phony claims by the 97% bullshit artists:

Dr. Idso, your paper 'Ultra-enhanced spring branch growth in CO2-enriched trees: can it alter the phase of the atmosphere’s seasonal CO2 cycle?' is categorized by Cook et al. (2013) as; "Implicitly endorsing AGW without minimizing it".

Is this an accurate representation of your paper?


Idso: "That is not an accurate representation of my paper. The papers examined how the rise in atmospheric CO2 could be inducing a phase advance in the spring portion of the atmosphere's seasonal CO2 cycle. Other literature had previously claimed a measured advance was due to rising temperatures, but we showed that it was quite likely the rise in atmospheric CO2 itself was responsible for the lion's share of the change. It would be incorrect to claim that our paper was an endorsement of CO2-induced global warming."


http://www.populartechnology.net/2013/05/97-study-falsely-classifies-scientists.html#Update2

Polo is a modern-day Goebbels: Repeat a lie frequently enough, and it becomes the truth.

The problem with both Polo and Goebbels is that (1) they are lying scumbags and (2) the internet now obliterates bullshit from those clowns.

If speaking truth makes you a scumbag then I guess most right wingers are angels.

You like the other guy are just posting long winded, fossil fuel lobby website information, in other words blatant lies. What do you have to say about the part of Cooks study where the climate change paper authors self-rated their papers position? ARE THEY LYING TO THEMSELVES! How are you going to get out of that one?

Ignoring it would be my guess.

Figure_3_col.jpg

Percentage of papers endorsing the consensus among only papers that express a position endorsing or rejecting the consensus. From Cook et al. (2013)
 
Polo, did you read the myriad of additional comments I provided from other authors who specifically refuted the claim that their papers supported a theory of AGW?

Does not matter to you, does it?

As to Hansen's projections ... his model is very, very wrong:

hansen.jpg

Figure 1: Temperature forecast Hansen’s group from the year 1988. The various scenarios are 1.5% CO 2 increase (blue), constant increase in CO 2 emissions (green) and stagnant CO 2 emissions (red). In reality, the increase in CO 2 emissions by as much as 2.5%, which would correspond to the scenario above the blue curve. The black curve is the ultimate real-measured temperature (rolling 5-year average). Hansen’s model overestimates the temperature by 1.9 ° C, which is a whopping 150% wrong. Figure supplemented by Hansen et al. (1988) .[Translated from German article examining claim that Hansen's model is credible]

http://www.kaltesonne.de/?p=4006

So back to you, Polo ... one ******* climate model that is less than 150% wrong.
 
The lie being proffered regarding Hansen's 1988 model is that his predictions are accurate ... yeah, sure, with no increase in CO2 emissions.

But in reality, that starting point is 100% wrong:

hansen20.jpg

What Hansen did was falsely suggest that his climate model is "accurate" based on "Model C" - but that model is predicated on no increase in CO2 emissions from 1988 to present. That is clearly NOT the true state of affairs, however, as the Mana Loa measurements show a clear increase in CO2 between 1988 and 2012.

Therefore, Hansen's projections are not predicated on Model C (a stasis in CO2 emissions), or Model B even (an increase in CO2 of 1.5% or less), but instead somewhere between his Model B and Model A. The graph in the prior post makes the point.

So how do you claim that Hansen's 1988 model is accurate, when under his own scenarios, he suggests that temperatures should be much higher than they currently are, given the increased CO2 emissions?
 
So do we conclude PoloMan = Elfie?
 
Polo, did you read the myriad of additional comments I provided from other authors who specifically refuted the claim that their papers supported a theory of AGW?

Does not matter to you, does it?

As to Hansen's projections ... his model is very, very wrong:

View attachment 172

Figure 1: Temperature forecast Hansen’s group from the year 1988. The various scenarios are 1.5% CO 2 increase (blue), constant increase in CO 2 emissions (green) and stagnant CO 2 emissions (red). In reality, the increase in CO 2 emissions by as much as 2.5%, which would correspond to the scenario above the blue curve. The black curve is the ultimate real-measured temperature (rolling 5-year average). Hansen’s model overestimates the temperature by 1.9 ° C, which is a whopping 150% wrong. Figure supplemented by Hansen et al. (1988) .[Translated from German article examining claim that Hansen's model is credible]

http://www.kaltesonne.de/?p=4006

So back to you, Polo ... one ******* climate model that is less than 150% wrong.

Do you just like being abused? Is that what it is because surely you can't believe posting stuff from the 3% is going to get you anywhere? If you had any sense that's the number you would be dwelling on, 3%........... Okay let's satisfy(momentarily I would guess till you run to something else) that sadomasochistic compulsion you suffer from.

Is this where you got your info from? The Fox News of climate change blogging?

http://wattsupwiththat.com/2012/06/15/james-hansens-climate-forecast-of-1988-a-whopping-150-wrong/

I like how they describe it here, fitting for the other thread; "The myth that Hansen's 1988 prediction was wrong is one of those zombie myths that always keeps coming back even after you chop its head off time and time again"

http://www.skepticalscience.com/print.php?n=1502

Simply Wrong: Jan-Erik Solheim on Hansen 1988

The myth that Hansen's 1988 prediction was wrong is one of those zombie myths that always keeps coming back even after you chop its head off time and time again. The newest incarnation of this myth comes from Jan-Erik Solheim, who in a 272 word article promoted by Fritz Vahrenholt and Sebastian Lüning (translated by the usual climate denial enablers here) manages to make several simple errors which we will detail here.
Whopping Wrong Temperature Change Claim

Solheim claims that "Hansen’s model overestimates the temperature by 1.9°C, which is a whopping 150% wrong." Yet Scenario A - the emissions scenario with the largest projected temperature change - only projects 0.7°C surface warming between 1988 and 2012. Even if emissions were higher than in Scenario A (which they weren't, but Solheim wrongly claims they were), they would have to be several times higher for Hansen's model to project the ~2.3°C warming over just 23 years (1°C per decade!) that Solheim claims. Solheim's claim here is simply very wrong.
CO2 is Not the Only Greenhouse Gas

Quite similar to Patrick Michaels' misrepresentation of Hansen's study back in 1998, Solheim claims that Hansen's Scenario A has been closest to reality by focusing exclusively on CO2 emissions. However, the main difference between the various Hansen emissions scenarios is not due to CO2, it's due to other greenhouse gases (GHGs) like chlorofluorocarbons (CFCs) and methane (CH4), whose emissions have actually been below Scenario C (Figure 1). In fact, more than half of the Scenario A radiative forcing comes from non-CO2 GHGs.

SolheimForcings.jpg


Figure 1: Radiative forcing contributions from 1988 to 2010 from CO2 (dark blue), N2O (red), CH4 (green), CFC-11 (purple), and CFC-12 (light blue) in each of the scenarios modeled in Hansen et al. 1988, vs. observations (NOAA). Solheim claims the actual changes were larger than Scenario A (indicated by the blue arrow). In reality they were smaller than Scenario B.

Solheim also produces a very strange plot of what he claims is "the ultimate real-measured temperature (rolling 5-year average)." His plot shows the purported 5-year running average temperature around 1998 as hotter than at any later date to present, which is not true of any surface or lower atmosphere temperature data set. It appears that Solheim has actually plotted annual temperature data, or perhaps a 5-month running average, most likely from HadCRUT3, which has a known cool bias and has of course been replaced by HadCRUT4. There is simply no reason for Solheim to be using the outdated data from HadCRUT3.

Figure 2 shows what the comparison should look like when using the average of HadCRUT4, NASA GISS, and NOAA temperature data sets.

HansenSolheim.jpg


Figure 2: Hansen's 1988 Scenario A (blue), B (green), and C (red) temperature projections compared to actual observed temperatures (black - average of NASA GISS, NOAA, and HadCRUT4) and to Solheim's temperature plot (grey).

Wrong Conclusion

Ultimately Solheim's concluded "The sorry state of affairs is that these simulations are believed to be a true forecast by our politicians." However, even if global climate models from several decades ago didn't have the remarkable record of accuracy that they do, current day clmate modeling is far more sophisticated than that done by Hansen et al. nearly a quarter century ago. Climate models are now run on some of the world's fastest supercomputers, whereas Hansen's was run on a computer with substantially less computing power than a modern day laptop. While climate model forecasts are imperfect (as are all forecasts), they have thus far been quite accurate and are constantly improving.
What Can We Learn From This?

The observed temperature change has been closest to Scenario C, but actual emissions have been closer to Scenario B. This tells us that Hansen's model was "wrong" in that it was too sensitive to greenhouse gas changes. However, it was not wrong by 150%, as Solheim claims. Compared to the actual radiative forcing change, Hansen's model over-projected the 1984-2011 surface warming by about 40%, meaning its sensitivity (4.2°C for doubled CO2) was about 40% too high.

What this tells us is that real-world climate sensitivity is right around 3°C, which is also what all the other scientific evidence tells us. Of course, this is not a conclusion that climate denialists are willing to accept, or even allow for discussion. This willingness to unquestioningly accept something which is obviously simply wrong is a good test of the difference between skepticism and denial. Indeed, in misrepresenting Hansen's results, Solheim has exhibited several of the 5 characteristics of scientific denialism.
 
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The 5 characteristics of scientific denial are also very interesting:

A fascinating paper well worth reading is Denialism: what is it and how should scientists respond? (Diethelm & McKee 2009) (H/T to Jeremy Kemp for the heads-up). While the focus is on public health issues, it nevertheless establishes some useful general principles on the phenomenon of scientific denialism. A vivid example is the President of South Africa, Thabo Mbeki, who argued against the scientific consensus that HIV caused AIDS. This led to policies preventing thousands of HIV positive mothers in South Africa from receiving anti-retrovirals. It's estimated these policies led to the loss of more than 330,000 lives (Chigwedere 2008). Clearly the consequences of denying science can be dire, even fatal.

The authors define denialism as "the employment of rhetorical arguments to give the appearance of legitimate debate where there is none, an approach that has the ultimate goal of rejecting a proposition on which a scientific consensus exists". They go on to identify 5 characteristics common to most forms of denialism, first suggested by Mark and Chris Hoofnagle:


1 Conspiracy theories
When the overwhelming body of scientific opinion believes something is true, the denialist won't admit scientists have independently studied the evidence to reach the same conclusion. Instead, they claim scientists are engaged in a complex and secretive conspiracy. The South African government of Thabo Mbeki was heavily influenced by conspiracy theorists claiming that HIV was not the cause of AIDS. When such fringe groups gain the ear of policy makers who cease to base their decisions on science-based evidence, the human impact can be disastrous.

2 Fake experts
These are individuals purporting to be experts but whose views are inconsistent with established knowledge. Fake experts have been used extensively by the tobacco industry who developed a strategy to recruit scientists who would counteract the growing evidence on the harmful effects of second-hand smoke. This tactic is often complemented by denigration of established experts, seeking to discredit their work. Tobacco denialists have frequently attacked Stanton Glantz, professor of medicine at the University of California, for his exposure of tobacco industry tactics, labelling his research 'junk science'.

3 Cherry picking
This involves selectively drawing on isolated papers that challenge the consensus to the neglect of the broader body of research. An example is a paper describing intestinal abnormalities in 12 children with autism, which suggested a possible link with immunization. This has been used extensively by campaigners against immunization, even though 10 of the paper’s 13 authors subsequently retracted the suggestion of an association.

4 Impossible expectations of what research can deliver
The tobacco company Philip Morris tried to promote a new standard for the conduct of epidemiological studies. These stricter guidelines would have invalidated in one sweep a large body of research on the health effects of cigarettes.


5 Misrepresentation and logical fallacies
Logical fallacies include the use of straw men, where the opposing argument is misrepresented, making it easier to refute. For example, the US Environmental Protection Agency (EPA) determined in 1992 that environmental tobacco smoke was carcinogenic. This was attacked as nothing less than a 'threat to the very core of democratic values and democratic public policy'.


Looks like you boys got 1,2,and 5 down pat.
 
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