This should cause some convo

[insaniti]

After Warner retired, they brought in Derek Anderson who had been a pro bowl QB. The next year they trad for Kolb who looked good in limited starts in Philly. Kolb got injured and only started 14 games in 2 seasons. Then Whiz was fired. He deserved the chance to bring in another QB and rebuild which i'm sure he would have done if he wasn't fired.


Whiz took a loser franchise and changed the whole culture. He got that city to actually care about the Cardinals. The same team that signed washed up Emmitt Smith just so they could sell tickets to Cowboy fans.


Whiz should be higher.

Seriously? Your argument is that they brought in a former pro bowl QB named Derek Anderson? Anderson ONLY went to the pro bowl because Tom Brady backed out. The year AFTER his "pro bowl" season, he was hurt in preseason, then hurt in the regular season, and played so poorly that they cut him after ONE year of his THREE year contract that he JUST signed. He was benched for Brady Quinn half way thru the year, only to be given the job back, and have it taken away again. Real solid choice to go after him as a successor to Warner. But I guess that doesn't go against Whiz, only his GM right? Again, Kolb looked good in Philly because of the system he was in. A COMPLETELY different system than what Whiz runs.

It took until year TWO for Whiz to give the starting job to Warner. He then passed on several QB's including Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, Brandon Weeden, Russel Wilson, Ryan Mallet, Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick. And while not all of those guys were successful, they were ALL better prospects than anyone they had on the roster. He was such a GREAT coach, he had them start 4-0 his final year there...only to lose the last 9 games in a row, including a 58-0 blowout to the Seahawks.

 

[Super Dave]

They only rushed 12 times the entire game. Of those 12 rushes one was a Warner scramble that just got back to the LOS. So they had 11 carries by the RBs. James had 9 carries. 4 of those were in the 2nd half. They passed 43 times. The Steelers won because the Cardinals had a perfect play called for a TD, which was a pass, and Harrison didn't do what he was suppose to do. He dropped back and took it 100 yards.

The reason they tried to run on their first series is because the Steelers just had a long drive and scored a FG. So they ran 3 whole times in their first 6 plays. From then on it is almost pass only. That first series did not cost them the game. Whiz hardly wasted any time passing. He sure didn't lose because of one series that garnered a 1st down and gave his defense a few minutes to rest.

The 100 yards part was great individual and team effort that was a result of great coaching. They practiced returns prior to the big game because Tomlin noticed the lack of follow through after a turnover. He made certain that they had a plan and it was ingrained in their mind set. Great Coaching.

 

[antdrewjosh]

The 100 yards part was great individual and team effort that was a result of great coaching. They practiced returns prior to the big game because Tomlin noticed the lack of follow through after a turnover. He made certain that they had a plan and it was ingrained in their mind set. Great Coaching.

Hey Dave where did you see that piece of coaching because when I used it as an exampleof good coaching I was ridiculed by our resident scholar Idioteque.. Lmao

 

[Super Dave]

Hey Dave where did you see that piece of coaching because when I used it as an exampleof good coaching I was ridiculed by our resident scholar Idioteque.. Lmao

America's Game- The Story of the 2008 Pittsburgh Steelers

http://www.amazon.com/NFL-Americas-Pittsburgh-Steelers-Championships/dp/B002BIULOO

Idioteque is not a resident scholar, he is a passionate fan with opinions, some I agree with it, some I don't, but he provides exactly what an internet message board needs. Fodder for debate.

 

[antdrewjosh]

America's Game- The Story of the 2008 Pittsburgh Steelers

http://www.amazon.com/NFL-Americas-Pittsburgh-Steelers-Championships/dp/B002BIULOO

Idioteque is not a resident scholar, he is a passionate fan with opinions, some I agree with it, some I don't, but he provides exactly what an internet message board needs. Fodder for debate.

Exactly where I saw it. So it would be intersting to see his view on you using it as an example.

 

[bermudasteel]

Where did I mention coach stupid?



This just proves you will argue with anything. Go look at the Cardinals and Browns Super Bowl records. Both of those teams know how to lose with the best of them.

What does each teams SB record have to do w/ your OP?

 

[Vader]

The 100 yards part was great individual and team effort that was a result of great coaching. They practiced returns prior to the big game because Tomlin noticed the lack of follow through after a turnover. He made certain that they had a plan and it was ingrained in their mind set. Great Coaching.

Where did I say it wasn't? Do you even know what I was talking about? I was talking about AZ NOT Pitt. The fact is that AZ didn't run the ball to much. Also Harrison did the EXACT opposite of what the coaches told him to do. Is that good coaching?

 

[Idioteque]

Where did I say it wasn't? Do you even know what I was talking about? I was talking about AZ NOT Pitt. The fact is that AZ didn't run the ball to much. Also Harrison did the EXACT opposite of what the coaches told him to do. Is that good coaching?

Let's not forget about our goddamned first-quarter FG from the one-millimeter line. Always a fine decision.

 

[Wingman]

Let's not forget about our goddamned first-quarter FG from the one-millimeter line. Always a fine decision.

How about that safety for holding the ball too long in the end zone, is that some more great coaching? When you look at a team that has been to the super bowl prior to your arrival and is mostly the same team would it not be fair to say that team took him, Tomlin, to the super bowl instead of the other way around? Just for the record I think Tony Dungey's team took Gruden to the super bowl as well.

 

[chipped ham]

Where did I say it wasn't? Do you even know what I was talking about? I was talking about AZ NOT Pitt. The fact is that AZ didn't run the ball to much. Also Harrison did the EXACT opposite of what the coaches told him to do. Is that good coaching?

While I totally understand the point you're trying to make here, one could say that it was, indeed, good coaching. Obviously, when a play is called, the coaches don't know what the other team is going to run. Harrison made the correct read with what Arizona was going to do and he made the adjustment. That would indicate, to me anyway, good preparation during the week and a good job with the scouting report.

 

[chipped ham]

Where did I say it wasn't? Do you even know what I was talking about? I was talking about AZ NOT Pitt. The fact is that AZ didn't run the ball to much. Also Harrison did the EXACT opposite of what the coaches told him to do. Is that good coaching?

While I totally understand the point you're trying to make here, one could say that it was, indeed, good coaching. Obviously, when a play is called, the coaches don't know what the other team is going to run. Harrison made the correct read with what Arizona was going to do and he made the adjustment. That would indicate, to me anyway, good preparation during the week and a good job with the scouting report.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Seriously? Your argument is that they brought in a former pro bowl QB named Derek Anderson? Anderson ONLY went to the pro bowl because Tom Brady backed out. The year AFTER his "pro bowl" season, he was hurt in preseason, then hurt in the regular season, and played so poorly that they cut him after ONE year of his THREE year contract that he JUST signed. He was benched for Brady Quinn half way thru the year, only to be given the job back, and have it taken away again. Real solid choice to go after him as a successor to Warner. But I guess that doesn't go against Whiz, only his GM right? Again, Kolb looked good in Philly because of the system he was in. A COMPLETELY different system than what Whiz runs.

It took until year TWO for Whiz to give the starting job to Warner. He then passed on several QB's including Joe Flacco, Nick Foles, Brandon Weeden, Russel Wilson, Ryan Mallet, Andy Dalton, Colin Kaepernick. And while not all of those guys were successful, they were ALL better prospects than anyone they had on the roster. He was such a GREAT coach, he had them start 4-0 his final year there...only to lose the last 9 games in a row, including a 58-0 blowout to the Seahawks.

You're using revisionist history and you have your timeline wrong. You're acting like Wiz went for years without trying to address the QB and that's not true.

Whisenhunt started Warner after just 5 games. That's how long he gave Matt Leinart who was obviously a much hyped prospect. Whiz gave Leinert 5 games and then Warner was the Cards starter until he retired 3 years later.

Warner's last year was 2009. Then for 2010 Whiz drafted Skelton and signed Anderson as a veteran. The 2010 draft was garbage for QBs. Skelton probably is the 2nd best QB in that draft behind Sam Bradford who hasn't done much himself. They also had Max Hall on the roster who was a good prospect at the time.

For 2011, Whiz did not stand pat. He traded for Kolb. Kolb got injured. They drafted Patrick Peterson 5th overall that year when they could have had Locker, Gabbert, or Ponder. Good move. Dalton and Kaepernick were both off the board by Arizona's 2nd round pick, so they would have had to trade up for either of them.

2012 you go with Kolb again. You traded for him, you have to give him his chance. He got injured again. It's easy looking back to say he should have drafted a QB but going into 2012 they still thought Kolb was their guy. At that time Kolb was a better prospect than all the guys you listed except Weeden. Weeden went in the 1st round and has been a bust. All the other guys you listed went later in the draft than Kolb did. And Whiz did draft a QB in 2012, Ryan Lindley in the 6th that year.


Flacco 2007 - this was Whiz's first year and he had Kurt Warner. Drafting Flacco probably means no SB for Arizona

Whiz was actively searching for his next QB after Warner left. It's hard to replace a franchise QB.

Aaron Rodgers was injured last year and without him GB went 3-5-1. If Rodgers blows out his ACL tomorrow, what are GB's prospects for this season? Not great. Would that make Mike McCarthy a bad coach all of a sudden because he didn't have a great QB lined up to take over for Rodgers?

In hindsight, Whiz was wrong on Kolb. But at that time it was a good trade. That doesn't make him a bad coach. He completely transformed a loser franchise into a Super Bowl team.

I'm not saying WHiz is the best coach in the league but he's proven a lot more than several guys ahead of him on that list.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Where did I say it wasn't? Do you even know what I was talking about? I was talking about AZ NOT Pitt. The fact is that AZ didn't run the ball to much. Also Harrison did the EXACT opposite of what the coaches told him to do. Is that good coaching?

Good coaching was that Tomlin stressed blocking on INT returns in his Super Bowl practices. Harrison made a great play but he scored because everyone was prepared and immediately blocked.

This is the frustrating thing about Tomlin. He is a good coach but he makes too many mistakes. He was not ready for the job and the Steelers knew it which is why they insisted that Lebeau and most other coaches stay. It's years later and he still makes rookie mistakes with the clock and bad decisions like flying out late to London claiming jet lag is no factor.

 

[SteelerAl]

You're using revisionist history and you have your timeline wrong. You're acting like Wiz went for years without trying to address the QB and that's not true.

Whisenhunt started Warner after just 5 games. That's how long he gave Matt Leinart who was obviously a much hyped prospect. Whiz gave Leinert 5 games and then Warner was the Cards starter until he retired 3 years later.

Warner's last year was 2009. Then for 2010 Whiz drafted Skelton and signed Anderson as a veteran. The 2010 draft was garbage for QBs. Skelton probably is the 2nd best QB in that draft behind Sam Bradford who hasn't done much himself. They also had Max Hall on the roster who was a good prospect at the time.

For 2011, Whiz did not stand pat. He traded for Kolb. Kolb got injured. They drafted Patrick Peterson 5th overall that year when they could have had Locker, Gabbert, or Ponder. Good move. Dalton and Kaepernick were both off the board by Arizona's 2nd round pick, so they would have had to trade up for either of them.

2012 you go with Kolb again. You traded for him, you have to give him his chance. He got injured again. It's easy looking back to say he should have drafted a QB but going into 2012 they still thought Kolb was their guy. At that time Kolb was a better prospect than all the guys you listed except Weeden. Weeden went in the 1st round and has been a bust. All the other guys you listed went later in the draft than Kolb did. And Whiz did draft a QB in 2012, Ryan Lindley in the 6th that year.


Flacco 2007 - this was Whiz's first year and he had Kurt Warner. Drafting Flacco probably means no SB for Arizona

Whiz was actively searching for his next QB after Warner left. It's hard to replace a franchise QB.

Aaron Rodgers was injured last year and without him GB went 3-5-1. If Rodgers blows out his ACL tomorrow, what are GB's prospects for this season? Not great. Would that make Mike McCarthy a bad coach all of a sudden because he didn't have a great QB lined up to take over for Rodgers?

In hindsight, Whiz was wrong on Kolb. But at that time it was a good trade. That doesn't make him a bad coach. He completely transformed a loser franchise into a Super Bowl team.

I'm not saying WHiz is the best coach in the league but he's proven a lot more than several guys ahead of him on that list.

Agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I can't get behind the idea that trading for Kolb "was a good trade" at the time. It was an extremely risky trade...they gave up D. Rodgers-Cromartie and a 2nd round to the Eagles AND they gave $21 million in guaranteed money to Kolb, a guy with 7 starts under his belt over 4 seasons (11 TDs, 14 Ints). They made a very expensive bet on a player with an extremely short track record...the kind of trade that gets a coach fired if it doesn't work out.

 

[Idioteque]

Agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I can't get behind the idea that trading for Kolb "was a good trade" at the time. It was an extremely risky trade...they gave up D. Rodgers-Cromartie and a 2nd round to the Eagles AND they gave $21 million in guaranteed money to Kolb, a guy with 7 starts under his belt over 4 seasons (11 TDs, 14 Ints). They made a very expensive bet on a player with an extremely short track record...the kind of trade that gets a coach fired if it doesn't work out.

Sadly, coaches are judged by immediate QB play, so they also get fired for NOT panic-trading for turds like Kolb.

 

[Vader]

While I totally understand the point you're trying to make here, one could say that it was, indeed, good coaching. Obviously, when a play is called, the coaches don't know what the other team is going to run. Harrison made the correct read with what Arizona was going to do and he made the adjustment. That would indicate, to me anyway, good preparation during the week and a good job with the scouting report.

It's great coaching if it works. If it doesn't work then it's a bad play by the player. What if Harrison is out of position and AZ scores a TD? What if Warner sees Harrison dropping, holds the ball a second longer (because now he has a little more time since Harrison is not blitzing) and throws a TD? Is that bad coaching or good coaching?

 

[obxsteeler]

It's great coaching if it works. If it doesn't work then it's a bad play by the player. What if Harrison is out of position and AZ scores a TD? What if Warner sees Harrison dropping, holds the ball a second longer (because now he has a little more time since Harrison is not blitzing) and throws a TD? Is that bad coaching or good coaching?

It's been proven 100% that the best coaching is always done in retrospect.

 

[mightyguru]

Harrison has said he didn't go with Lebeau's call...freelanced and guessed correctly. Awesome read/react play that helped win the game.

 

[Drink IRON City]

Great coaching is the result of 1.)player ability 2.) mental toughness, 3.) being put in the right position. Don't you think Harrison's "gut feeling", was the result of game planning / film watching / etc. all coached by DL? If the player fails, coach and player get credit, if the player succeeds, both player and coach SHOULD get credit as well.


Salute the nation

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Agree with a lot of what you wrote, but I can't get behind the idea that trading for Kolb "was a good trade" at the time. It was an extremely risky trade...they gave up D. Rodgers-Cromartie and a 2nd round to the Eagles AND they gave $21 million in guaranteed money to Kolb, a guy with 7 starts under his belt over 4 seasons (11 TDs, 14 Ints). They made a very expensive bet on a player with an extremely short track record...the kind of trade that gets a coach fired if it doesn't work out.

Sadly, coaches are judged by immediate QB play, so they also get fired for NOT panic-trading for turds like Kolb.

Arizona traded for Kolb for the 2011 season. They had the 5th overall pick that year and took Patrick Peterson. They knew DRC was overrated and was about to be replaced by Peterson.

You need an immediate starting QB for 2011. You can't draft Cam Newton. So you are looking at Locker, Gabbert, and Ponder as 1st round options. Kolb is looking pretty good compared to those guys.

Round 2 there was Dalton and Kaepernick but if you put yourself back in 2011, neither was seen as a top prospect. Dalton was just seen as a game manager. That's still a knock on him as he hasn't won a playoff game yet.

Kaepernick was seen as a huge reach by the 49ers. He ran a gimmick pistol offense in college and was seen as a major project. The 49ers have won games with him but that's mostly because of their run game and defense. Kaepernick has struggled from the pocket without the read option.

At that time, Dalton and Kaepernick weren't significantly better prospects than John Skelton who had already started games for them and was a project.

The point is, when you have no QB, you are often forced into taking a chance with a trade or a free agent. At the time the Kolb deal was pretty good. They didn't give up a ton for him and he was really their only way to gurantee themselves an immediate starter for 2011.

If they don't make the Kolb trade, then they may have been forced to draft Locker or Gabbert instead of Patrick Peterson. That alone makes the Kolb trade a good deal.

 

[Wingman]

Harrison has said he didn't go with Lebeau's call...freelanced and guessed correctly. Awesome read/react play that helped win the game.

I think this is the key. Harrison disregarded the coaching and game plan completely on that play. Success or failure it was all on Harrison and no one else. Film study everything else was taken into account on the play they called, and Harrison did not go with it. Had he done so it could be reasonably assumed that the sixth super bowl is a loss. Seven points for zona would have been a 14 point swing and it is unlikely that our team would have recovered. They might have but it is not a likely scenario.

 

[antdrewjosh]

So its not good coaching that Lebeau allows his players to freelance if they see something or feel something about a play. He has allowed Polamalu this freedom for years. Troy is not always in position when he gambles. The coaches still trust him to freelance. Is that not good coaching?

 

[diver]

So its not good coaching that Lebeau allows his players to freelance if they see something or feel something about a play. He has allowed Polamalu this freedom for years. Troy is not always in position when he gambles. The coaches still trust him to freelance. Is that not good coaching?

Exactly. Good coaching is getting the hell out of the way sometimes. Not allowing your ego to get in the way and let the players play. Hell, Bradshaw called his own plays. So, is Noll not a good coach?

This argument that comes around here and again is like a train wreck. I hate the idea of it, but I gotta look. It is so stupid. Who cares if Harrison freelanced or not? Who cares if they played the Cardinals that year? They played who was there, for **** sake. They won the damn game. Would some of you rather they lost? Tomlin was the coach of a team that won the SB. He deserves credit for that. Just enjoy it for crying out loud.

 

[Stryker]

How about that safety for holding the ball too long in the end zone, is that some more great coaching? When you look at a team that has been to the super bowl prior to your arrival and is mostly the same team would it not be fair to say that team took him, Tomlin, to the super bowl instead of the other way around? Just for the record I think Tony Dungey's team took Gruden to the super bowl as well.

To be fair, both of Gruden's teams were in the Superbowl that year.

 

[antdrewjosh]

http://triblive.com/mobile/6418580-96/tomlin-coach-mike