Universal Basic Income

[deljzc]

When you frame the issues differently, like delivering healthcare/taxreporting/welfare/water/electricity, you can try to find the most efficient (long term lowest cost) to society.

When you attach politics and normative judgments to same, inefficient solutions to delivery issues will happen. Look at the IRS, its complexity and irrelevance of much of what it does for society.

Simple standards, which is probably what drove Friedman to his suggestion, are probably more efficient in the long term than solutions with a bunch of configurations/special interests that distort over time.

So many part of our government need to just go into the shredder and completely re-done.

I mean, I really don't want to change the TOTAL dollars on almost any issue. I'm not even a huge proponent of tax cuts because it's small peanuts in the scheme of things. Revenue is $3.5 trillion, expenses are $4 trillion.

It's just there is so much clutter within those two numbers in EVERY part, from IRS and collection of that $3.5 revenue is so many different ways (payroll taxes, payroll deductions, income deductions, sales tax, etc.) and God knows how we spend that $4 trillion is just about as wasteful as possible with mountains and mountains of rule books on doing it.

So much more could be done if we just scrapped everything and started over.

 

[oneforthebus]

Thing is, over the last few decades the demand for unskilled labor has steadily decreased while the supply of unskilled labor has remained steady or even increased with immigration. So a lot of folks are in the position where they can't find a decent-paying job even if they want.

Hell, I have an MBA and just finished mortuary school and got my funeral director license and can't find a job. Right now I'm driving a cab for a private transportation company which oddly pays a lot more than I would have thought.

This is true, however the solution is to train people for jobs that are in demand, not pay people to do nothing. There are labor shortages in all kinds of decent paying fields...healthcare, truck driving, construction, hi tech industries are all experiencing shortage of workers.

 

[IndySteel]

This is true, however the solution is to train people for jobs that are in demand, not pay people to do nothing. There are labor shortages in all kinds of decent paying fields...healthcare, truck driving, construction, hi tech industries are all experiencing shortage of workers.

We ship via bulk liquid tank trucks a lot. They are in high demand and short supply, at least in the midwest. There's a big driver shortage. One of the companies we use has 2 extra trucks available but no drivers. I was told that drivers are getting a $10,000 signing bonus to hire on, and salary of over $100K.

 

[DBS1970]

We ship via bulk liquid tank trucks a lot. They are in high demand and short supply, at least in the midwest. There's a big driver shortage. One of the companies we use has 2 extra trucks available but no drivers. I was told that drivers are getting a $10,000 signing bonus to hire on, and salary of over $100K.

The company I work for deals in fuel, dry bulk and chemicals. You're pretty much guaranteed $1000 a week salary. What comes along with that though is 12 1/2 to 14 hour days. Last week I work 68 hours. There are a lot of people that do not have any desire to put that kind of effort into a job. Too many people want straight eight hour days 40 hours a week tapping on the keyboard in the office with air-conditioning.

 

[MT~Forged]

That's the problem with "free" education, healthcare, etc.
Ask someone in Denmark how "free" those things are.
They're taxed right around 55% on their income and then pay 25% in sales tax.

Now imagine that here.
Imagine losing more than 1/2 your current pay and then bumping up your sales tax another 15% or so on the things you purchase.
How's your family doing now?

It's absurd to think we should be forced to support everyone.
If a tree falls on my house, I don't expect a handout from all of my neighbors for repairs.
If I get in a car accident because I'm high and drunk, I don't expect everyone else to pay for it.
Life is about PERSONAL CHOICES and the consequences of those choices. Sometimes they're good. Sometimes they're bad. Sometimes stuff happens to me that are out of my control.
Everyone dies at some point. Some make it to over 100. Some die at birth. Sometimes life takes people earlier than we'd like. Sometimes it's random, sometimes a personal choice was the culprit, sometimes someone else's foolishness was the cause. But this randomness is universal globe wide. It doesn't discriminate. We should feel compelled to help the less fortunate in their time of need, not feel obligated like we're being held at gunpoint.

A flat tax should be implemented.
It would be non-discriminatory.
If you make $50,000.00, hypothetically at 10%, you're on the hook for $5,000.00.
If you make $5,000,000.00, you're on the hook for $500,000.00.
The "richer" person pays substantially more than the average household guy, but they both contribute to their local/state/federal government.
As people receive raises, then they're also taxed more, too
No loopholes, credits, breaks, line itemizations, no lobbyists, etc.
It's jacked by the government right from your paycheck, and your employer reports directly to government to say it's been taken out.
No end of the year returns. No paperwork. No wasted time. And probably dramatically reduces the 100,000+ employees needed at the IRS right now.
Our elected crooks would then have work within their budget and couldn't pass scam tax grabs for the companies that line their pockets.

It would fix a LOT of our woes.
Not all, but it'd be a good start.

If you want to implement a Flat Tax, it needs to be on the other end. As long as it is possible to earn money under the table or through ill gotten means, you are able to skip out on paying taxes. Little Johnny works for McDonald's and earns 10K, he saves what he can by living at home with mom & dad, spends 8000 of it, he pays 800. Someone else sells drugs illegally and makes a Million a year, they live like rock stars and spend a Million, they pay 100K. If you took the flat tax from the employees paycheck, the drug dealer would pay NOTHING.

 

[oneforthebus]

We ship via bulk liquid tank trucks a lot. They are in high demand and short supply, at least in the midwest. There's a big driver shortage. One of the companies we use has 2 extra trucks available but no drivers. I was told that drivers are getting a $10,000 signing bonus to hire on, and salary of over $100K.

From what I understand there are also huge swaths of unemployed people who cannot pass drug tests and so cannot work in fields like truck driving or healthcare.

But we're supposed to support them.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

The company I work for deals in fuel, dry bulk and chemicals. You're pretty much guaranteed $1000 a week salary. What comes along with that though is 12 1/2 to 14 hour days. Last week I work 68 hours. There are a lot of people that do not have any desire to put that kind of effort into a job. Too many people want straight eight hour days 40 hours a week tapping on the keyboard in the office with air-conditioning.

I make about that now working usually less than 40 hours a week but I'm on-call 24/7. I'm in my 5th week and I've learned that the phone is a lot more likely to ring at 2:30am that it is at 2:30pm. Transporting railroad crews. If you think Amtrak has a poor on-time record believe me the freight RR's aren't any better. The railroads are ****** up, a, uh, train wreck, if you will. Again, you gotta wanna work. It sucks but I make a good chunk of change most weeks.

 

[SteelChip]

Thing is, over the last few decades the demand for unskilled labor has steadily decreased while the supply of unskilled labor has remained steady or even increased with immigration. So a lot of folks are in the position where they can't find a decent-paying job even if they want.

Hell, I have an MBA and just finished mortuary school and got my funeral director license and can't find a job. Right now I'm driving a cab for a private transportation company which oddly pays a lot more than I would have thought.

Maybe you be lookin' in the wrong State there JonBoy.

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[SteelChip]

The company I work for deals in fuel, dry bulk and chemicals. You're pretty much guaranteed $1000 a week salary. What comes along with that though is 12 1/2 to 14 hour days. Last week I work 68 hours. There are a lot of people that do not have any desire to put that kind of effort into a job. Too many people want straight eight hour days 40 hours a week tapping on the keyboard in the office with air-conditioning.

I don't need to tell you that truck driving is not always worth the $1,000-1500 a week they can get, I dispatched dry bulk cement for awhile after I retired and them drivers got the **** kicked out of them to the point of exhaustion....then got told they had to pull another"short" load before they went home.

 

[tapeANaspirin2it]

Would it replace that we are already paying for other people's food, their health insurance, their retirements, their school taxes, and their kids' college educations? I'd be all for it in that case. But I suspect they're going to get the money in addition to all of that.

Seriously, why work? Why not just be one of the people who sits on their *** and has everything paid for? Below a very high income level, working will just not be worth it at all.

Depends who gets it passed. I have heard it proposed by conservatives and they say everything is gone. Welfare, social security, food stamps, all gone. You just guarantee everybody this base income and that’s it. Of course, there would have to be some additional allowances for medical for people who can’t afford the treatment, but for the most part, you’d be guaranteed 36K tax free each year to live.

That should be plenty to provide food, shelter, and all the basics. If you spent $1000 per month on rent/mortgage and $100 per week on food, that’s only $17,200 which leaves you $18,800 to pay utilities and cell phones and Tv/Internet and beer.

The other big thing is this is per person. This could actually start to heal the family unit in poor communities where people are currently incentivized to NOT be married. Now maybe mom and dad do live together and now they have $72,000 per year for the family.

This could actually work out cheaper for the tax payer when you think of just how many government programs are out there and the staff needed to administer them.

But like i said, it would depend who passed it. If liberals push it though, it would no doubt still keep all the bloated programs in place and they’d find a way to keep families divided. Their power depends on it.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Maybe you be lookin' in the wrong State there JonBoy.

I study for the Florida exam a little bit every day.

That should be plenty to provide food, shelter, and all the basics. If you spent $1000 per month on rent/mortgage and $100 per week on food, that’s only $17,200 which leaves you $18,800 to pay utilities and cell phones and Tv/Internet and beer.

Part of the problem is that the cost of living varies widely across the country. I'd rather the Feds didn't do much at all or block grant and leave it to the states.

 

[hamster]

Requiring people to work is racist.

Sent from my [device_name] using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Not a ton of confidence in the rugged individual and capitalism out there, is there?

 

[RollRed]

The construction company I work for does a ton of work on WODA properties and other low income government subsidized apartment complexes. We’ve been working in one particular housing project for the last couple weeks, and I have to say it amazes me how many , seemingly able bodied young men.... and women.... I see loafing around every day. Their are 6 separate buildings, each with 10 units. Every one of those buildings reeks of weed from the time we start work at 7 until the time we knock off around 4:30. I know none of them work because I see the same faces every day. Needless to say, not one of them has approached any of us asking if we were hiring. It’s infuriating knowing that money comes out of my check every week and handed over to these pieces of ****.

 

[Confluence]

The least you could do is bring them lunch with the dough you saved from the recent tax cuts.

 

[Confluence]

If you want to implement a Flat Tax, it needs to be on the other end. As long as it is possible to earn money under the table or through ill gotten means, you are able to skip out on paying taxes. Little Johnny works for McDonald's and earns 10K, he saves what he can by living at home with mom & dad, spends 8000 of it, he pays 800. Someone else sells drugs illegally and makes a Million a year, they live like rock stars and spend a Million, they pay 100K. If you took the flat tax from the employees paycheck, the drug dealer would pay NOTHING.

Consumption Tax, or VAT (Value-added Tax) is the way to go. All wealthy folks simply consume more. Tax there. And if some gov't feels the need to rebate some folks (poor, disabled, vets, elderly, etc.) they simply target that relief. This doesn't need to be difficult, or so ****** up by arbitrary political bullshit.

 

[ark steel]

Consumption Tax, or VAT (Value-added Tax) is the way to go. All wealthy folks simply consume more. Tax there. And if some gov't feels the need to rebate some folks (poor, disabled, vets, elderly, etc.) they simply target that relief. This doesn't need to be difficult, or so ****** up by arbitrary political bullshit.

I have faith that our "representatives" could royally **** that up

 

[swal75]

Thing is, over the last few decades the demand for unskilled labor has steadily decreased while the supply of unskilled labor has remained steady or even increased with immigration. So a lot of folks are in the position where they can't find a decent-paying job even if they want.

Hell, I have an MBA and just finished mortuary school and got my funeral director license and can't find a job. Right now I'm driving a cab for a private transportation company which oddly pays a lot more than I would have thought.

If that ever dries up or sucks the Uber money is real but it's a super grind.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

If that ever dries up or sucks the Uber money is real but it's a super grind.

Just home from two trips overnight. The first was cancelled after I waited 3 hours, I still get paid for waiting but not as much as driving, got a second at a terminal 45 miles away, get there and it's cancelled too. Still get paid for unloaded miles but not as much as loaded miles. Worked 5.5 hours, slept in my van for about 2 hours, made $79. Like I said, the railroads are ****** up. Don't know what the hell they're doing.

 

[deljzc]

I'm not really for a "flat tax". Consumption taxes, maybe, but I do think they tax middle-low income people more as a "percentage" of everything they make because they HAVE to buy stuff. Maybe a consumption tax that excludes necessities (like PA excludes sales tax on food and clothing) or something similar.

Part of the problem (to me) and this came up a lot in our discussion of Trump's tax cut is that since WWII we have completely revamped taxes in this country from (what used to be) income taxes into payroll taxes.

We pay so much now just because of the hours we work. Some of that is supposed to be our retirement but it was really just a huge federal revenue stream that is based on work hours and effects low-to-middle classes MUCH MORE than upper-middle/wealthy.

There is a 12.4% tax (6.2% is employee and 6.2% is employer) on the first $120,000 we all make from Social Security. Above that and it disappears.

That's why when we talk about "income tax" levels we should not be talking about a flat tax. Because that is really not fair because the Social Security tax is only for the first $120,000.

Add the Medicare tax (which is a "flat tax") that both employee and employer have to pay (1.5% each).

This is a substantial portion of federal government revenue that has nothing to do with "income taxes" vs. "consumption taxes" vs. "flat tax" vs. "scaling tax".

This is also why the huge tax cut to companies was needed because they are taxed a LOT already just on payroll taxes (which some other countries don't have). Back in the 1950's this social security tax was really, really small and most of all government revenue on companies came from just taxing profits. Now, the government gets their money no matter if the company makes or loses money.

This should all be easier to do. And I do think wealthy people can and should pay more (it has to be fair, but it should be more).

Just realize when we talk about government revenue and taxes we really aren't talking just about "income tax" anymore and we really need to look at how payroll taxes are starting to overtake income taxes as the government's main source or revenue.

 

[swal75]

Just home from two trips overnight. The first was cancelled after I waited 3 hours, I still get paid for waiting but not as much as driving, got a second at a terminal 45 miles away, get there and it's cancelled too. Still get paid for unloaded miles but not as much as loaded miles. Worked 5.5 hours, slept in my van for about 2 hours, made $79. Like I said, the railroads are ****** up. Don't know what the hell they're doing.

I assume that you are a 1099 employee? If so, being "poor on paper" is a great thing.

 

[Superman]

Ron's a 1%er moonlighting as a working class schlub.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

I assume that you are a 1099 employee? If so, being "poor on paper" is a great thing.

Yes. The other upside is that I can take a day off when I want.

Ron's a 1%er moonlighting as a working class schlub.

In sw PA if you're a "working class schlub", you're the big money in town.

 

[fedderone]

If you want to implement a Flat Tax, it needs to be on the other end. As long as it is possible to earn money under the table or through ill gotten means, you are able to skip out on paying taxes. Little Johnny works for McDonald's and earns 10K, he saves what he can by living at home with mom & dad, spends 8000 of it, he pays 800. Someone else sells drugs illegally and makes a Million a year, they live like rock stars and spend a Million, they pay 100K. If you took the flat tax from the employees paycheck, the drug dealer would pay NOTHING.

In my utopia, drugs are legal. Solves that issue real quick.
But if you're taxing " illegal " businesses, are you then suggesting we tax lil' Johnny's Lemonade stand, too?
The bake sales at schools?
This is how exceptions happen and where you start the need for special treatment because _________ ( insert reason important to you, but maybe not all ).
A flat tax is as universal as it gets, because most people work for legal businesses and/or own legal businesses.
You as a company pay X% and you as an employee pay X%. PERIOD. It's so simple and logical it will never happen because it eliminates all confusion and corruption.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

If you want to implement a Flat Tax, it needs to be on the other end. As long as it is possible to earn money under the table or through ill gotten means, you are able to skip out on paying taxes. Little Johnny works for McDonald's and earns 10K, he saves what he can by living at home with mom & dad, spends 8000 of it, he pays 800. Someone else sells drugs illegally and makes a Million a year, they live like rock stars and spend a Million, they pay 100K. If you took the flat tax from the employees paycheck, the drug dealer would pay NOTHING.

That's basically why I'm no longer in business for myself. Too many people working under-the-table for a lot less because they weren't paying taxes and insurance and too many consumers who didn't care and couldn't or wouldn't pay what I had to charge. Just my taxes and insurance cost $7000 a month and you have to charge accordingly.