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What is Tomlin's record vs. 25% winning record teams or lower?

antdrewjosh

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Ark If you look back in this thread one of the losses was a 34-24 lost to the chargers.. I asked for stats it was posted Ben had 300 yds passing 3 tds and a interception he also lost a fumble(that wasn't posted). 300yds three TDs sounds great until you read the recap and see were down 27-3 then 34-10 til two late cosmetic Tds. When you read the recap and see he struggled most of the game

http://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=321209023
 

GMC

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The thing we should be asking is why was Tomlin 22-4 when favored by more than 7 points to START his career but over the last 11 games he is 7-4.

That's a problem that needs to be answered.

The roster has a lot to do with it. Poor drafting on the defensive side and lack of quality depth at many positions. But it's easier to just blame Ben.
 

AggieSteel

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I'm assuming you mean they actually lost those 4 games rather than beat the spread, right?

In any event, saying triple expected outcomes with an 11 game sample when it is really 2 games that went one way or the other.

80% would be 8.8 wins, so let's go with 9 which is 81.8%, which means we should be 9-2 in those games right? All you need to show is that, in two of those games, Ben played badly and/or there was a significant injury. We know of one that happened yesterday. That leaves 1 in 3 games.

This last game had a bad outing by Ben and some injuries that might, at least partially, explain the outcome, yes? If Ben doesn't get injured, our chances for a comeback increase a great deal, IMO. After seeing the first half performance, I'm not so sure how much more certain that comeback would be, but still higher.

What were those other three games? Did Ben play great and we still lost? Did we have some significant injuries during the game or stay healthy and still lost?

Those numbers also don't take into account the games in which we are heavily favored, and play terribly, well below our standards, but still get lucky and pull out a W. Don't get me wrong, all W's count the same in the win column, and I'll never complain about getting a W over an L, but the overall trend of playing like **** is still the same.

Recent examples are:
2011- 23-20 W over a hapless Colts team without Peyton. This is the year they tanked and "sucked for Luck", but this one was WAY too close for comfort. We let Curtis Painter lead an 80 yard drive late in the 4th to tie. Come on

2011- 17-13 W over Jacksonville IN HEINZ FIELD. Jville finished 5-11. We jumped out to a 17-0 lead and stopped caring. We got cocky and relaxed and just let them walk back into the game led by the mighty Blaine Gabbert at QB. Ben was 12-23 passing. And this was the same situation. A 4-1 Steelers team vs. a 1-4 **** team.

2011- 13-9 W over Kansas City led by the mighty Tyler Palko. We were 7-3 and they were 4-6 going in. Palko turned it over 4 times (including 3 INTs) but yet we only managed 13 points, all in the 2nd quarter. Ben didn't even crack 200 yards passing. Ugly, dirty, listless play because we didn't care.

2011- 13-9 W over Cleveland to end the season. Sure Ben was a little gimpy, but Cleveland was 4-11 and starting a dreadful Seneca Wallace at QB. We just could not score points, which seemed to be a staple of that team. They went to the playoffs and the Tebow game happened.

2012- Taking on the Philly Eagles didn't seem like one of these games at first. They were 3-1 going into this game. We squeaked out a hideous 16-14 win in Pittsburgh where Mike Vick threw for 2 TDs, Ben didn't crack 6 yards per attempt, and we could only muster 16 points. Oh yeah, the Eagles went on to lose all but one of the rest of their games and finish a strong 4-12.

2012- 16-13 overtime W over the woeful, dreadful 1-7 KC Chiefs. This team literally did not have a lead in regulation ALL SEASON until they played us in week 10. Their only W to that point came in overtime when they came from behind. Their first lead OF THE SEASON was against us. And we, the 5-3 Steelers AT HOME with playoff aspirations, managed 16 points and to beat them by only 3. Oh yeah, AND we lost Ben in that game too. Because of course, in games that we play like ****, we have to compound it by Ben getting hurt. And before he got hurt, he was 9/18 for 84 yards. Against a 1-7 team. At Heinz Field.

2014- 30-27 win over the Browns in week 1. We jumped ALL OVER these losers in the first half leading 27-3 at halftime. We looked like world beaters. But, as in typical Steelers fashion, when we are feeling good about ourselves is when we play our absolute worst. Great performances by Brian Hoyer and Terrance West, and 2 TDs from Isaiah Crowell later, all of a sudden the game is ******* TIED 27-27. We needed a last second game-winner from Sushi to pull out a W against the ******* Browns in a game we led 27-3. Jesus ******* Christ. I know they finished 7-9 so they were better than they usually are, but it was still Cleveland, and we were still leading by 4 scores. They also kicked the living **** out of us later that year.

2014- 17-9 win over Jacksonville a week after somehow inexplicably being beaten by a horrific Tampa Bay team. Oh by the way, we got a defensive TD in this game that sealed it. We scored 17 points against 0-4 Jacksonville (who finished 3-13) and barely pulled out a W by the skin of our teeth. Ben, Bell, and Brown were healthy IIRC, and all played the entire game. But hey 17 points including an INT return TD against a winless team seems perfectly acceptable. This is the same team that, only a few weeks later, featured Ben throwing 6 TD passes in consecutive games.

2014- 27-24 victory over the hapless Tennessee Titans. We were 6-4 going in to the game, they were 2-7. They were leading 24-13 going into the 4th, with our only TD coming on defense. We needed a furious 4th quarter rally to come back and win this game. Again, this is the same team and QB who set passing TD records just a few weeks earlier. How the hell do you not score a single offensive TD for 3 quarters and need 2 fourth quarter TDs to squeak out a W against a pathetic 2-7 Titans team? Oh yeah, we let Mettenberger look like Dan Marino for most of the game.

2015- 12-6 W over the Rams. What a hideous game. Yes Ben was injured, yes we had to put in Vick. But wtf. Ben had 0 TDs and an INT before his injury. We had 9 points in the first half with him and 3 in the second. Bell was healthy, Brown was healthy, but we just couldn't score even before Ben got hurt. In almost all of these games, we just can't put points on the board even if we move the ball okay. Then of course, as what seems to happen in so many of these games, we lost Ben in this game for the next several weeks. Why?!

Okay guys - these are games we WON. We could barely score points in any of these games. And even in the games we put up respectable scoring totals, it was still an ugly, undisciplined, terrible game to watch against a horrific team that had no business keeping it close with us. There are games that could have set tones for how we came out in other games in those seasons. These are games that may not have had a tangible impact on our playoff positioning, but VERY easily could have given the way we came out and played in these games.

Now I'm not saying we need to just flat destroy every single bad team. But given the trend of losing to these bad teams that has plagued us for years, it is also prudent to remember the trend of playing HORRIBLY and being very lucky to win against these ****** teams as well. And in almost every instance of playing horribly featured our offense utterly incapable of scoring points despite our HOF QB and full or nearly full complements of weapons surrounding him.

Plain and simple, this team picks and chooses when it wants to play, and has no idea how to adjust their mentality when an "inferior" team gives them a tougher game than they expect. They are too cocky, too relaxed, and it is obvious week in and week out, year in and year out but no one seems to care or do **** about it.
 

stillwright

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Under Tomlin the Steelers are good for a couple of these horrible losses per year, preventing them from securing home field in the playoffs. We'd be working on number 9 or 10 if Cowher was still the coach.

Yeah because Cowher got us how many rings? And how many years did it take him?....but we would be working on 9 or 10 with him. OK
 

ark steel

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Those numbers also don't take into account the games in which we are heavily favored, and play terribly, well below our standards, but still get lucky and pull out a W. Don't get me wrong, all W's count the same in the win column, and I'll never complain about getting a W over an L, but the overall trend of playing like **** is still the same.

Recent examples are:
2011- 23-20 W over a hapless Colts team without Peyton. This is the year they tanked and "sucked for Luck", but this one was WAY too close for comfort. We let Curtis Painter lead an 80 yard drive late in the 4th to tie. Come on

2011- 17-13 W over Jacksonville IN HEINZ FIELD. Jville finished 5-11. We jumped out to a 17-0 lead and stopped caring. We got cocky and relaxed and just let them walk back into the game led by the mighty Blaine Gabbert at QB. Ben was 12-23 passing. And this was the same situation. A 4-1 Steelers team vs. a 1-4 **** team.

2011- 13-9 W over Kansas City led by the mighty Tyler Palko. We were 7-3 and they were 4-6 going in. Palko turned it over 4 times (including 3 INTs) but yet we only managed 13 points, all in the 2nd quarter. Ben didn't even crack 200 yards passing. Ugly, dirty, listless play because we didn't care.

2011- 13-9 W over Cleveland to end the season. Sure Ben was a little gimpy, but Cleveland was 4-11 and starting a dreadful Seneca Wallace at QB. We just could not score points, which seemed to be a staple of that team. They went to the playoffs and the Tebow game happened.

2012- Taking on the Philly Eagles didn't seem like one of these games at first. They were 3-1 going into this game. We squeaked out a hideous 16-14 win in Pittsburgh where Mike Vick threw for 2 TDs, Ben didn't crack 6 yards per attempt, and we could only muster 16 points. Oh yeah, the Eagles went on to lose all but one of the rest of their games and finish a strong 4-12.

2012- 16-13 overtime W over the woeful, dreadful 1-7 KC Chiefs. This team literally did not have a lead in regulation ALL SEASON until they played us in week 10. Their only W to that point came in overtime when they came from behind. Their first lead OF THE SEASON was against us. And we, the 5-3 Steelers AT HOME with playoff aspirations, managed 16 points and to beat them by only 3. Oh yeah, AND we lost Ben in that game too. Because of course, in games that we play like ****, we have to compound it by Ben getting hurt. And before he got hurt, he was 9/18 for 84 yards. Against a 1-7 team. At Heinz Field.

2014- 30-27 win over the Browns in week 1. We jumped ALL OVER these losers in the first half leading 27-3 at halftime. We looked like world beaters. But, as in typical Steelers fashion, when we are feeling good about ourselves is when we play our absolute worst. Great performances by Brian Hoyer and Terrance West, and 2 TDs from Isaiah Crowell later, all of a sudden the game is ******* TIED 27-27. We needed a last second game-winner from Sushi to pull out a W against the ******* Browns in a game we led 27-3. Jesus ******* Christ. I know they finished 7-9 so they were better than they usually are, but it was still Cleveland, and we were still leading by 4 scores. They also kicked the living **** out of us later that year.

2014- 17-9 win over Jacksonville a week after somehow inexplicably being beaten by a horrific Tampa Bay team. Oh by the way, we got a defensive TD in this game that sealed it. We scored 17 points against 0-4 Jacksonville (who finished 3-13) and barely pulled out a W by the skin of our teeth. Ben, Bell, and Brown were healthy IIRC, and all played the entire game. But hey 17 points including an INT return TD against a winless team seems perfectly acceptable. This is the same team that, only a few weeks later, featured Ben throwing 6 TD passes in consecutive games.

2014- 27-24 victory over the hapless Tennessee Titans. We were 6-4 going in to the game, they were 2-7. They were leading 24-13 going into the 4th, with our only TD coming on defense. We needed a furious 4th quarter rally to come back and win this game. Again, this is the same team and QB who set passing TD records just a few weeks earlier. How the hell do you not score a single offensive TD for 3 quarters and need 2 fourth quarter TDs to squeak out a W against a pathetic 2-7 Titans team? Oh yeah, we let Mettenberger look like Dan Marino for most of the game.

2015- 12-6 W over the Rams. What a hideous game. Yes Ben was injured, yes we had to put in Vick. But wtf. Ben had 0 TDs and an INT before his injury. We had 9 points in the first half with him and 3 in the second. Bell was healthy, Brown was healthy, but we just couldn't score even before Ben got hurt. In almost all of these games, we just can't put points on the board even if we move the ball okay. Then of course, as what seems to happen in so many of these games, we lost Ben in this game for the next several weeks. Why?!

Okay guys - these are games we WON. We could barely score points in any of these games. And even in the games we put up respectable scoring totals, it was still an ugly, undisciplined, terrible game to watch against a horrific team that had no business keeping it close with us. There are games that could have set tones for how we came out in other games in those seasons. These are games that may not have had a tangible impact on our playoff positioning, but VERY easily could have given the way we came out and played in these games.

Now I'm not saying we need to just flat destroy every single bad team. But given the trend of losing to these bad teams that has plagued us for years, it is also prudent to remember the trend of playing HORRIBLY and being very lucky to win against these ****** teams as well. And in almost every instance of playing horribly featured our offense utterly incapable of scoring points despite our HOF QB and full or nearly full complements of weapons surrounding him.

Plain and simple, this team picks and chooses when it wants to play, and has no idea how to adjust their mentality when an "inferior" team gives them a tougher game than they expect. They are too cocky, too relaxed, and it is obvious week in and week out, year in and year out but no one seems to care or do **** about it.

In 7 of those games, the D held the other team to two TD's or less. If your offense cannot score more than 2 TD's, they deserve to lose.
 

MTC

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After reading all these games in the past where the Steelers let teams with losing records stick around, I am starting to feel that as much talent the Steelers have, they are regressing at a steady pace
 

ark steel

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Yeah because Cowher got us how many rings? And how many years did it take him?....but we would be working on 9 or 10 with him. OK

yeah, that is bullshit. The season after winning the SB after having been forced to take Ben a year before, the team finished 8-8 under Cowher during Ben's motorcycle crash/appendectomy year. But, Ark, Ben was hurt..so, those Cowher players were so goddamned good, why couldn't they do it without him?

First 4 games without Ben? 1-3. The next two (cant remember Miami that finished 6-10 was a win, jags and Cincinnati that finished 8-8 were losses. SD which finished 14-2 was a loss. To finish the first half of the season at 2-6, they beat a chief team that finished 9-7 (a thumping for Ben's first game back). lost to a falcons team that went 7-9 (ben threw 3 TDs with no ints, Vick threw 4 TD.s with two Ints), Raiders team that went 2-14 (oops!), and a Broncos team that finished 9-7. Raiders were 1-5 having won their first game only the week before. and beat the Steelers 20-13

The team finished the season 6-2 with the two losses against the 13-3 Ravens. Wins against NO (10-6), Browns x2 (4-12), TB (4-12), CAR (8-8) and CIN (8-8), Even going 6-2 down the stretch, they only beat one good team.

In the whole year, they played 2 good teams and lost all three. they played 4 games against playoff teams and went 1-3.
 

antdrewjosh

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Yeah because Cowher got us how many rings? And how many years did it take him?....but we would be working on 9 or 10 with him. OK

But Cowher didn't have Ben all those years
 

madinsomniac

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Games we lose we get dominated on the lines and always come out flat or score quick then go flat... We have had a miserable record of underperforming vs bad team and thats on both side of the ball... That is 100% on the coach. Period. If the players lose focus its literally his job to recognize that and refocus them... Moreover these games often are tied to a hiddeous gameplan that doesnt work and never gets adjusted... Think tebow in the playoffs
 

Steeltime

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Yeah because Cowher got us how many rings? And how many years did it take him?....but we would be working on 9 or 10 with him. OK

Look, I am not agreeing that the Steelers would have "9 or 10" with Cowher, but for **** sake, he had Roethlisberger as a QB for just 3 seasons and went a combined 34-14 with 2 playoff appearances and a SB victory in that span.

Oh, and he want 5-1 in the playoffs during those 3 seasons - or one less victory than Coach Shades in 10 seasons and counting with Ben.
 

FAB802

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The thing we should be asking is why was Tomlin 22-4 when favored by more than 7 points to START his career but over the last 11 games he is 7-4.

That's a problem that needs to be answered.

So, he's 29-8 as a favorite and his teams are always unprepared? The play calling by dipshit with Bell hardly touching the ball alone was enough to lose this game. When Ben is bad, which he was almost all day, you have to give the ball to your horse and they failed. This Sunday he'll get the ball twenty five plus times and even with our depleted defense we will be in the game.
 

Stainless

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Does our head coach bear any responsibility in Bell getting 10 carries Sunday?
 

deljzc

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So, he's 29-8 as a favorite and his teams are always unprepared? The play calling by dipshit with Bell hardly touching the ball alone was enough to lose this game. When Ben is bad, which he was almost all day, you have to give the ball to your horse and they failed. This Sunday he'll get the ball twenty five plus times and even with our depleted defense we will be in the game.

He's 29-8 when favored by -7.5 points or more. What I consider "heavy favorites" and historically teams win outright (not cover the spread) approximately 82-85% of the time.

Again, even with the debacle of 2009 (in which we lost 3 times as heavy favorites I think), over Tomlin's first 5 seasons here (2007-2011) we were 22-4 as "heavy favorites". Since then we are 7-4.

We have also declined as "medium favorites" over his first 5 seasons here vs. the last 5 (includes this season).

Maybe that's a leadership issue. Maybe Tomlin has failed to create the kind of leaders that have the self-discipline and self-policing attitude not to take weeks off against inferior competition. We've asked this question before about Tomlin and his player-friendly attitude. Does it affect leadership and commitment to detail when the leash is pretty long for the players? Maybe it's just all on Roethlisberger, since he's the default leader on this team as the old Cowher guard (Farrior, Ward, Smith, Clark, etc.) retired and left the building, and that's just all we can expect from Roethlisberger. He's not a Montana-type leader but you still want all the good despite that.

I don't know. All I can tell you is the numbers and you guys come to your own conclusions.
 
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antdrewjosh

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Bigappleyinzer

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You guys gotta be kidding me with this. Is it soooo impossible to imagine us losing that game when considering:

1.) Our franchise QB was injured before the half... Hell, I could stop the list right there.

2.) We are starting SEVERAL backup's on both offense and defense.
3.) We were on the road.

Not really a recipe for a success.
 

t-man

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And just because he threw for Alot of yards and had a high rating doesn't mean he played well. Go back look at the recaps which is still not as good as watching again. A couple of the games you posted stats weren't put up until late or clutch plays weren't made late.

All I know is I hope they trade that ******* scrub so we can see what a REAL qb can do with all this talent next year. Don't you?

Or, are you just being a fuckwad.

Joe
 

Steelerfan81

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Ben couldn't take snaps from under center. That was part of the problem with them not being able to run in the second half. Poor game plan though all around.
 

antdrewjosh

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All I know is I hope they trade that ******* scrub so we can see what a REAL qb can do with all this talent next year. Don't you?

Or, are you just being a fuckwad.

Joe

Why would I be being a **** wad. It's more to playing well then stats. Especially for someone considered to be a franchise QB. Was a clutch throw missed? Was the yds and TDs accumulated late when it didn't matter. Those are legit questions to me.. I posted yesterday that since 2014 Ben has 18 tds and 18 ints in road games. At home he has 51-13. Safe to say that has contributed to us losing to sub 500 teams on the road. When the game plan is built around you you have to play better. And the coaches have to do a better job of if you are off your game adjust the plan instead of letting him keep making mistakes. But that's not easy he is Ben and they probably feel he can get hot at any second. But when you have the best back in football I feel you should hand him the ball in these situations. As far as wanting someone one else no I'm good on that I can say Ben needs to play better especially on the road and it doesn't mean I would want to go to war with anyone else.
 

ark steel

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You guys gotta be kidding me with this. Is it soooo impossible to imagine us losing that game when considering:

1.) Our franchise QB was injured before the half... Hell, I could stop the list right there.

2.) We are starting SEVERAL backup's on both offense and defense.
3.) We were on the road.

Not really a recipe for a success.

The only part I disagree with is that the QB wasn't hurt for most of the first half, MIA D was ranked last or near it on rushing yards allowed and we only scored 8 points. In only one game had their D allowed less than 3.5 ypa rushing. We should have been crushing them.

In the first half, we were 1-5 on third down. In the first Qtr, we had the ball over 10 min. 2nd quarter just over 3.

Gamebook shows 119 first half yard rushing. Taking out the 60 yard run by DHB puts us at, almost 5 ypc. Total rushing for the game was 128 with only 3 more rushes in the second half. Those three rushes were in the first possession of the 3rd period and only down by 8 at that time.
 

ark steel

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Ben couldn't take snaps from under center. That was part of the problem with them not being able to run in the second half. Poor game plan though all around.

maybe, having him flanked by DW and LB (or one of those replaced by a TE sized person who can block) while hobbled would be nice. can run or pass from that.
 

TDX27

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The players a certainly responsible for their own actions against **** teams we lost to all the time. However, when this happens year in and year out, it is more than that. It is a systemic problem, and yes, the coaches need to be held accountable. I usually don't comment much on us losing to bad teams but under Tomlin, it happens way too often and it happens every year. Part of the blame is still on the players but something Tomlin is or isn't doing is a huge part of the problem.
 
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