Which WR is more deserving of the Hall of Fame: Hines Ward or Antonio Brown?

[TDX27]

I think Ward should get in. His numbers say he should get in based on others who have. And, he was the best blocking WR ever and really re-wrote the position - at least to a degree. His blocking should help but I know no one cares about that. It's all about stats.

As much as I hate him now, AB should be a first-ballot HOFer unless his actions off the field are taken into consideration which they never really have before. His run over what was it, 7 years in a row, was probably the most dominant ever by a WR. Dominance and consistency for AB in that time frame make him a lock in my eyes.

 

[wig]

Because I enjoy it... I looked up Antonio Brown's statistical history. Admittedly, his "body of work" post Steelers is a bit small, but that's actually because of his own ***-hat behavior. Assuming AB is truly one of the greatest receivers ever to play the game and not a product of (ahem) a playing relationship with one of the best QBs in the history of the league, we should expect little drop-off in his production, particularly when we consider that all of his post-Steeler career stats have been partnered with Jesus 2.0 Tom "I know what defense you're calling" Brady.

So, let's see if AB is still AB without Ben Roethlisberger throwing him the ball...

The simple breakdown, over 130 career games with the Steelers,
AB averaged 6.44 receptions a game.
He averaged 86.21 yards a game.
(That makes 13.39 yards per reception)
He averaged .57 TDs per game.
And he had a career long of 79 yards (and interestingly another reception of 78 in the following season.)

With the Raiders (Ya, not letting him out of that one) AB averaged 0s across the board.

With the Cheats, (one game)
AB averaged 4 receptions.
He got 56 yards
(That makes 14 yards per reception)
He got 1 TD (Statistically these are the only two outlier categories where he did better than with the Steelers. It was ONE game though...)
He had a long of 20 yards.

Finally, in a somewhat better representation with the Bucs, (8 games)
AB averaged 5.63 receptions per game
He averaged 60.38 yards
He averaged .5 TDs a game
(That makes 10.73 yards per reception)
and he had a long of 46 yards.

And lastly, in a complete "Post Steelers" summation (9 games)
AB has averaged 5.44 receptions
He has averaged 59.89 yards per game
(That makes 11 yards per reception)
He has averaged .56 TDs per game.

Since there is a small sample base Post-Steeler we can't say definitively that he's either lost a step or simply isn't as important in the offensive scheme with his new teams, however if he doesn't start producing significantly in the next season or two, it is pretty clear that he's not providing the value he once did.

Now the question is... Is his falling production because of moving to a new team etc. or is it because he had a QB and coach that went out of their way to coddle him and provide him with shiny stats in order to make him happy. In short, did AB make the system, or did the system make AB? We'll know the answer in the next couple seasons.

 

[wig]

Punx noted: "I'm not sure that having disputes with a couple teams equates to '******** on the league.'"

To be clear, he forced the Steelers to eat something like 13 to 18 million by demanding a restructure 1 year after receiving the largest signing bonus in NFL receiver history. Because he didn't get his restructure, he forced a trade and made the Steelers eat the remainder of his signing bonus.

THEN he signed with the Raiders. They were giddy as they'd found a franchise WR to pair with their rising QB. Accordingly they focused on other needs in he draft etc. AB did everything in his power to get himself kicked off the Raiders, most likely because his agent had had some "behind closed doors" talks with the Cheats organization and AB wanted out of Oakland so he could go to RubDown Town. What he did was ridiculous and the fact that he actually tried to sue the Raiders to force them to pay him his signing bonus ought to have been criminal.

If other players were allowed to behave the way AB did, it would destroy the league. Imagine top-shelf players around the league refusing to play for their team or any other team that traded for them so they could be released and sign a contract with essentially a hand-picked team. (Lebron James approves this message, btw.)

 

[TDX27]

Those numbers are nice and all but his string of 6 years in a row (2 years more than any other WR in history) where he had something like 100 catches, 1,000 yards and 10 TD's (4 or 5 of the years he had 15 TD's) is all you need to look at to determine he is a lock for the HOF. That is more than enough sample size. And, sure, he had a HOF QB throwing to him but I'll bet if you look, the majority (I never have but am more than confident in assuming here) of WR's in Canton had a HOF QB throwing to them or at least a great QB throwing to them.

He's similar to Bell. Bell completely ****** himself from getting to the HOF by pulling his shenanigans and sitting out a year and leaving Pittsburgh. AB stayed a Steeler long enough to get there but could have gotten into the top 3 in pretty much every WR category if he would have stayed.

I do hate AB and hope the committee grows a pair and at least makes him wait to get in due to his off-field antics but why would they start now.

 

[papillon]

I'd be interested to see the number of 3rd or 4th down conversions that Hines Ward had in career compared to other receivers. It seems like whenever the Steelers needed a play for a 1st down, Ward or Bettis was making the play. You really can't put an objective value on something like that but it seems that Ward made big plays at big moments in games and there's value to that. Of course, it could just be me misremembering or inflating the number in my mind because I liked Hines Ward the football player.

Does the HOF take citizenship into account at all? If they do, AB won't be a 1st ballot HOFer but he will, in all likelihood, get into the HOF some day. If citizenship counts nothing, then AB will get in sooner but not 1st ballot. I think some voters will hold his antics against him even if they are not supposed to.

I'm not certain Hines will ever make the cut, I'd love to see him get in but I'm not certain that he will. When he retired I was certain that he would get in but with passing and receiving yards going through the roof since his retirement, his numbers almost look pedestrian.

I hope Hines gets in and I hope AB doesn't, but if he does, I hope the voters make him wait a while.

Papillon

 

[Steelworth]

To be clear, he forced the Steelers to eat something like 13 to 18 million by demanding a restructure 1 year after receiving the largest signing bonus in NFL receiver history. Because he didn't get his restructure, he forced a trade and made the Steelers eat the remainder of his signing bonus.

THEN he signed with the Raiders. They were giddy as they'd found a franchise WR to pair with their rising QB. Accordingly they focused on other needs in he draft etc. AB did everything in his power to get himself kicked off the Raiders, most likely because his agent had had some "behind closed doors" talks with the Cheats organization and AB wanted out of Oakland so he could go to RubDown Town. What he did was ridiculous and the fact that he actually tried to sue the Raiders to force them to pay him his signing bonus ought to have been criminal.

If other players were allowed to behave the way AB did, it would destroy the league. Imagine top-shelf players around the league refusing to play for their team or any other team that traded for them so they could be released and sign a contract with essentially a hand-picked team. (Lebron James approves this message, btw.)

Spot on. It baffles me that people are actually saying AB just had some disputes with a couple of teams.

 

[FatsHolmes]

I've always felt that fringe players needed something extra. Both of these guys have something that I think would make them attractive to a voter.

AB had the fact that he was such a low draft pick. A guy that worked his way up from being a sixth-round pick to being the best receiver in the league, arguably ever. And he did that through hard work.

Hines had his blocking - arguably the best receiver at it ever. And he also had this:

That smile - always on his face. Didn't matter if he just made a circus catch - just dropped a catch - just got lit up by a linebacker - just lit up a linebacker. I'd just love to see that smile on a bust in Canton.

Of the two, I hope that Hines makes it. It wouldn't bother me if AB made it, but it won't excite me that much if he does.

 

[F83]

ward changed how WR's block And yet he was a consistent 1000 yd. receiver for many years unless Brown stays a decent citizen his stats will suffer in TB so if teams trust him i think he may want to go somewhere he is the 1 or 2 option and get back that big salary but he will need several seasons of big stats I see ward eventually getting in brown its like Russian roulette 50/50

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

I own one authentic signed jersey. I framed it. Its for my favorite Steeler of all time . Hines ward.

 

[steel dino]

Depends how "content of character" is weighted in the voting...

 

[Drink IRON City]

Depends how "cUntent of character" is weighted in the voting...

Just helped your spelling out a little



Salute the nation

 

[Ike Kelly]

Hines is definitely a candidate, no other modern era WR (Wayne, Holt, Smith, A, Johnson, A. Davis and Bruce to name a few) with 1k catches was a SB MVP. In fact a couple of those WR mentioned in Bill’s article could be argued that their stats were system based, and Bruce (one of them) was just enshrined. Ward started on Special Teams, worked his way into the starting lineup in his second year. He also re-emphasized blocking at the position and performed it so well, the league changed the rules because of it (a’la Mel Blount). All the while, playing without an ACL in one of his knees and not “having any speed”. Steeler bias and WR backlog will delay Hines. Fitz will be a first ballot for sure, and there are already writers proclaiming Edelman as HOF worthy. Between Marcia and Kraft coaxing the Commish, I wouldn’t be surprised if he is enshrined. Hell, I always thought Welker was better.

AB, has some numbers, but not longevity. Sure Sayers and Davis are HOF‘res with short careers, but they have accolades besides their stats that attributed to their enshrinement and they did not have the negative connotation that AB prescribed. Does AB really have it over Anquan Boldin or even Reggie Wayne? We don’t even know if AB will make it to 1k in catches. He needs 110-115 more to reach it.

 

[SteveA]

They both will have to wait....But they BOTH will get in...

 

[FatsHolmes]

AB's star continuing it's progress - thrown out of a joint practice with the Titans.

 

[steelerscotty]

Antonio Brown thrown out of practice as Buccaneers, Titans brawl four times

Four skirmishes broke out Thursday, the second and final day of joint practices between the Titans and Bucs ahead of their preseason game Saturday.

www.usatoday.com

 

[MT~Forged]

IF AB hadn’t had the melt down, he would be going in as arguably the 2nd best WR in history. Maybe he could have even passed Rice, who knows.

 

[TDX27]

I own one authentic signed jersey. I framed it. Its for my favorite Steeler of all time . Hines ward.

I won one of his authentic signed jerseys at a silent auction. I would not be denied when I saw that jersey.

 

[suncitysteel]

AB came up from the tough Liberty City part of Miami and could've had a story for young men to emulate. Instead, he's taken a road that we as adults would use as a warning to other young men NOT to follow (forget about the multi-million dollar contracts... life is so much more than that). AB could've had scholarships to Florida St. or other top-tier colleges, but poor academics in HS didn't permit that. While at lesser-known colleges, he got into altercations. He's had a chip on his shoulders throughout his life and he hasn't handled it well. The entire world has been spectator to the ugly side of his persona on social media. He neither asks for forgiveness for his past screwups nor does it seem he cares.

Ward's story begins as the product of a bi-racial union and whose father split from the family during his younger years. He's talked about how his mother had to work multiple jobs as a single mom just to put food on the table for her family, all while not knowing much English. He's talked about the bullying he was subjected to in public school in Georgia due to his unorthodox looks. In HS and college, he played multiple positions on offense (QB, WR, tailback), and as stated on this thread, played without the ACL on his left knee since childhood. After getting SB MVP honors, he returned to S. Korea to talk about the discrimination that mixed race children there endure (relegated to 2nd class citizens, if I remember correctly). Hines then donated funds to establish a foundation to address the issue.

Both AB and Hines have made personal mistakes, we all have, but the question to ask is... what kind of man arose out of those mistakes?

We could argue AB's stats vs Hines' stats all day... much like baseball nerds. I don't think we'd ever reach a consensus.

HOF speeches are riddled with words like "courage... endurance.. overcoming... respect". In the end, whose speech would you rather hear?

 

[Drink IRON City]

Antonio Brown thrown out of practice as Buccaneers, Titans brawl four times

Four skirmishes broke out Thursday, the second and final day of joint practices between the Titans and Bucs ahead of their preseason game Saturday.

www.usatoday.com

Thanks for the find steelerscotty !!!!


Little chest is a mess and continues to exhibit it. He will never put up the numbers he did when BEN was his QB.



Salute the nation

 

[FSF]

Forget numbers.
Forget stats.
Forget everything about them off the field.
Forget every argument in this thread for either guy and simply ask yourself this question…..

Team’s in the SB.
Game’s on the line.
Who would you rather have out there in their prime?

The answer to that riddle is Hines and it’s not even close.

IF AB hadn’t had the melt down, he would be going in as arguably the 2nd best WR in history. Maybe he could have even passed Rice, who knows.

Being honest and objective here, AB came up big time many times with the game on the line. Brown caught 4 fourth-Qtr TDs from Big Ben (including with 10/9 seconds left). If the defense held the Cowboys in check, the "fake spike" by Ben would have rivaled or surpassed Marino would have made it 5.

Believe it or not, its 4 more than Hines ever caught from Ben. He literally has more 4th qtr - game winning TDs from Randle El than Roethlisberger. This is far more attributable to where Roethlisberger was in his evolution as a QB - he was rising to the next level around 2010 and the road was winding down on Hines.

I can't take away from Brown's explosiveness on the field. At one point, he was pulling away as easily the Steelers all-time best WR, but then again it looked like the Steelers were a contender for another Super Bowl - and Brown did not level up in the playoffs. Hines Ward did.

 

[Drink IRON City]

I won one of his authentic signed jerseys at a silent auction. I would not be denied when I saw that jersey.

How much $$$chingO$$$ did you bid ?



Salute the nation

 

[Steelworth]

IF AB hadn’t had the melt down, he would be going in as arguably the 2nd best WR in history. Maybe he could have even passed Rice, who knows.

While it's possible - coulda woulda shoulda. He made his bed. **** him.

 

[fedderone]

Being honest and objective here, AB came up big time many times with the game on the line. Brown caught 4 fourth-Qtr TDs from Big Ben (including with 10/9 seconds left). If the defense held the Cowboys in check, the "fake spike" by Ben would have rivaled or surpassed Marino would have made it 5.

Believe it or not, its 4 more than Hines ever caught from Ben. He literally has more 4th qtr - game winning TDs from Randle El than Roethlisberger. This is far more attributable to where Roethlisberger was in his evolution as a QB - he was rising to the next level around 2010 and the road was winding down on Hines.

I can't take away from Brown's explosiveness on the field. At one point, he was pulling away as easily the Steelers all-time best WR, but then again it looked like the Steelers were a contender for another Super Bowl - and Brown did not level up in the playoffs. Hines Ward did.

Agree with everything you say 100%.
Was never trying to "knock" AB the on field player.
Just trying to get in the mind of HOF voter and who deserves to be in ( first, if talking both ).

IF, a big if, AB doesn't go full turbo-diva and crazy.......who knows.
I'm only dealing with what has actually happened and what we factually know.
A big part of HOF consideration is longevity/consistency for career.
We're comparing two different players/receivers.
If you say compare ABs best x amount of years/stretch of years vs Hines? Statistically, AB is going to win THAT, and it's not close.
And we're talking two different Steeler teams and two different Bens that each played with.

IF, we're picking players to fill out a team, any era Steeler team, any offensive philosophy, any run/pass ratio, any fantasy lineup you want to set.
If the last spot is WR, and it's down to those two players, it's Hines.
He can do everything you need him to do, and do it consistent and awesome.
Run routes, catch, block, throw passes as a former QB, etc.
Hines was far more complete than AB.

 

[The Ugly Thief]

They're both better than Drew Pearson.

 

[Steelers1356]

From a talent standpoint excluding his mental meltdowns, Brown. Ward was probably a more complete receiver, but the Hall of fame is all about stats.