WTF are we doing?

[BLITZ]

I had followed Ben's entire last season at Miami all year and was begging for him to fall, Cleveland was the last obstacle. Never been happier about a draft pick.

I just remember wanting Rivers and Ben as a second. So glad how it turned out. When the Browns skipped a QB the wait to our pick was an eternity.

Rivers went like 4th so Ben was the only guy left to pick. No way he gets past the QB needing Browns right?
Hahahaha

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

Steeler nation had a cookout that day at the stadium.. many of us were there when ben was picked.

 

[Confluence]

Under OC: Bruce Arians

• 2009 – 4,328 yards
• 2011 – 4,077 yards

Under OC: Todd Haley

• 2013 – 4,261 yards
• 2014 – 4,952 yards
• 2017 – 4,251 yards
• 
  
• Under OC: Randy Fichtner

2018 – 5,129 yards

Let us not pretend that Mike Tomlin was an X and O guy with no clipboard, sheet, etc.

Over a large time frame it was well known his specialty (supposedly) was defense.

I am going to assume you are trolling.

He threw his damn elbow our there at 2018.

 

[SteelerFan448]

I think I'm going to settle on Cole Payton as the QB I want the Steelers to draft. A pure developmental QB, but a lot of tools and is fun to watch. He's the most "Pittsburgh" QB in this draft.

 

[Confluence]

I think I'm going to settle on Cole Payton as the QB I want the Steelers to draft. A pure developmental QB, but a lot of tools and is fun to watch. He's the most "Pittsburgh" QB in this draft.

Hand size?

Asking for a friend

 

[diver]

Under OC: Bruce Arians

• 2009 – 4,328 yards
• 2011 – 4,077 yards

Under OC: Todd Haley

• 2013 – 4,261 yards
• 2014 – 4,952 yards
• 2017 – 4,251 yards
• 
  
• Under OC: Randy Fichtner

2018 – 5,129 yards

Let us not pretend that Mike Tomlin was an X and O guy with no clipboard, sheet, etc.

Over a large time frame it was well known his specialty (supposedly) was defense.

I am going to assume you are trolling.

I'm not trolling. What would have the stats been if they had an "offensive minded" head coach? It's a dumb assertion. When Mike Tomlin had the offensive firepower, he let it thrive. It's largely his fault when he didn't have the firepower, so I'm not defending him, so don't go there. I'm objecting to something that just isn't true for large parts of Ben's career and the stats support that.

 

[SteelerFan448]

Hand size?

Asking for a friend

 

[WindyCitySteel]

Yeesh -- Payton started one season after four years as a benchwarmer at an FCS school. If you're taking a mid-round flier on a guy, Beck and Allar are much better options.

 

[diver]

When Ben had free reign and drew up his plays in the dirt or exposed D’s when the plays broke down was usually when the offense got its splash and was at its most effective.

In other words when Tomlin was taken out of the equation things got better

So no, when you are a hurdle to success that indeed is NOT offensive minded.

I’d throw out the Haley years as he actually appeared to have a bit of autonomy under Tomlin from many reports..:when Tomlin got more involved things got progressively worse.

I think your first point is more urban legend than anything at this point. No Qb is going to throw for over 4,000 yards 5 times and over 5,000 once by drawing shiit up in the dirt. He was great at making reads and throws from the pocket as well.

I just don't know what more any fan could have asked for in some of those years to be more "offensive minded." Maybe in those years if they would have been a little more "defensive minded" they would have actually won something.

 

[slashsteel]

I'm not trolling. What would have the stats been if they had an "offensive minded" head coach? It's a dumb assertion. When Mike Tomlin had the offensive firepower, he let it thrive. It's largely his fault when he didn't have the firepower, so I'm not defending him, so don't go there. I'm objecting to something that just isn't true for large parts of Ben's career and the stats support that.

We don’t know what the stats would be as it would be differ for each offensive minded coach right?

When Mike had the fire power he let it thrive huh.

What the stats support was he wasn’t good enough when it mattered the most. When those X and O matchups happened Mike didn’t cut the mustard.

I showed the O stats as those OCs were mainly responsible for them.

They were the X and Os behind them.

What Mike was credited for was being able to squeeze out regular season wins.

What he is blamed for was not bringing in a good supporting staff to make up for his deficiencies.

You seem like you do a decent amount of not defending him. I am not interested in defending him or not defend him. I just don’t want fans to get it twisted he held this organization back.

And thankfully he is gone.

That is what he should get credit for nothing more or less.

 

[Black & Gold Bleeder]

this guy is a beast! Get him!!

 

[Confluence]

I think your first point is more urban legend than anything at this point. No Qb is going to throw for over 4,000 yards 5 times and over 5,000 once by drawing shiit up in the dirt. He was great at making reads and throws from the pocket as well.

I just don't know what more any fan could have asked for in some of those years to be more "offensive minded." Maybe in those years if they would have been a little more "defensive minded" they would have actually won something.

Your mancrush on the former Mike is showing

 

[diver]

We don’t know what the stats would be as it would be differ for each offensive minded coach right?

When Mike had the fire power he let it thrive huh.

What the stats support was he wasn’t good enough when it mattered the most. When those X and O matchups happened Mike didn’t cut the mustard.

I showed the O stats as those OCs were mainly responsible for them.

They were the X and Os behind them.

What Mike was credited for was being able to squeeze out regular season wins.

What he is blamed for was not bringing in a good supporting staff to make up for his deficiencies.

You seem like you do a decent amount of not defending him. I am not interested in defending him or not defend him. I just don’t want fans to get it twisted he held this organization back.

And thankfully he is gone.

That is what he should get credit for nothing more or less.

It's just a cheap shot to say during some of those years he wasn't an "offensive minded" coach or Ben was held back by that. I don't care who was responsible for the stats, they happened. And they were pretty damn good in those years. I really don't know what could have made them better. It's a rewrite of history of those years to say otherwise.

He did hold this organization back in many ways, and I am glad he is gone as well. But he did not hold them back offensively during those years.

 

[diver]

Your mancrush on the former Mike is showing

Nah. It's the truth and you don't like it.

 

[Punxsutawney]

I just remember wanting Rivers and Ben as a second. So glad how it turned out. When the Browns skipped a QB the wait to our pick was an eternity.

Rivers went like 4th so Ben was the only guy left to pick. No way he gets past the QB needing Browns right?
Hahahaha

The Browns passed because they just signed Jeff Garcia and the Redskins because they had just drafted Patrick ******* Ramsey the year prior.

In fairness to Washington though, Sean Taylor might have gone done as the greatest safety ever had his life not been cut short.

Crazy to think Ed Reed, Troy and Taylor were drafted in three successive years.

There is no way to know how things would have turned out had Rivers been drafted by the Steelers, and Ben someone else.

Rivers was a great QB in his own right, and those fairly stacked Steelers teams in the 2000s helped Ben's development a lot.

 

[slashsteel]

It's just a cheap shot to say during some of those years he wasn't an "offensive minded" coach or Ben was held back by that. I don't care who was responsible for the stats, they happened. And they were pretty damn good in those years. I really don't know what could have made them better. It's a rewrite of history of those years to say otherwise.

He did hold this organization back in many ways, and I am glad he is gone as well. But he did not hold them back offensively during those years.

During the regular season postseason or both?

Let us pinpoint when he definitely did…

Did he bring his buddy in that had no business being an OC? arguably one of the worst OCs in the history of the game?

That in itself was a maddening long stretch.That had fans wanting to jump off a bridge.

Then we can look at playoff outcomes well documented. Enough of them existed that were embarrassing on both sides of the ball so we can’t say there was a stretch he didn’t hold the team back. Perhaps his initial hiring.

Really isn’t a cheap shot on the man from fans.

He refused to surround himself with X and O coaches and he himself wasn’t one. Even if an individual side of the ball had stretches of nice runs they were watered down with playoff futility and embarrassment of not being competitive more often than not.

At that point does it matter if one time period the O looked pretty? Did he still have an offensive and defensive approach in the playoffs that made just about every fan cringe ?

You notice how I always revert back to the playoffs? As a regular season coach we can understand your likes.

But as a playoff coach that man should have been gone a decade ago.

When it comes to the most important aspect of the game he was embarrassing.

So fans will not shockingly say, yes I remember that stretch during the long marathon he had a nice kick. He looked good out there.”

Nevermind he refused to put his shoes on and too many runners finished the race well before him.


But he had his moments! Uncompetitive but he was in the race right?

We had joy we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the hills that we climbed
Were just seasons out of time

 

[diver]

During the regular season postseason or both?

Let us pinpoint when he definitely did…

Did he bring his buddy in that had no business being an OC? arguably one of the worst OCs in the history of the game?

That in itself was a maddening long stretch.That had fans wanting to jump off a bridge.

Then we can look at playoff outcomes well documented. Enough of them existed that were embarrassing on both sides of the ball so we can’t say there was a stretch he didn’t hold the team back. Perhaps his initial hiring.

Really isn’t a cheap shot on the man from fans.

He refused to surround himself with X and O coaches and he himself wasn’t one. Even if an individual side of the ball had stretches of nice runs they were watered down with playoff futility and embarrassment of not being competitive more often than not.

At that point does it matter if one time period the O looked pretty? Did he still have an offensive and defensive approach in the playoffs that made just about every fan cringe ?

You notice how I always revert back to the playoffs? As a regular season coach we can understand your likes.

But as a playoff coach that man should have been gone a decade ago.

When it comes to the most important aspect of the game he was embarrassing.

So fans will not shockingly say, yes I remember that stretch during the long marathon he had a nice kick. He looked good out there.”

Nevermind he refused to put his shoes on and too many runners finished the race well before him.


But he had his moments! Uncompetitive but he was in the race right?

We had joy we had fun
We had seasons in the sun
But the hills that we climbed
Were just seasons out of time

You are moving the goalposts. I was responding specifically to the argument made which was what could have Ben done with an "offensively minded" head coach. I am thinking mostly of those years from 2014-2018. The stats show without doubt that the Steelers had a great offense in those years, making the original argument weak. The problem in those years, and why they didn't win anything even with all those stats, resides on the defensive side of the ball. He moved on from Dick LeBeau. He rolled out a defense that had starting corners like Ross Cockrell, Artie Burns and Antwon Blake. The safeties at various times were Mike Mitchell and Sean Davis. I've been a fan for over 50 years and don't think there has been a player on the Steelers I disliked as much as Mike Mitchell. Look, you were there, you know. The lack of success in those years had little to do with his lack of "offensive mindedness." It was his hands in the defense that caused the lack of success in those years. I just think it is important to be historically accurate.

Is that really a defense of him?

 

[Fiji Mariner]

I think your first point is more urban legend than anything at this point. No Qb is going to throw for over 4,000 yards 5 times and over 5,000 once by drawing shiit up in the dirt. He was great at making reads and throws from the pocket as well.

I just don't know what more any fan could have asked for in some of those years to be more "offensive minded." Maybe in those years if they would have been a little more "defensive minded" they would have actually won something.

1) It’s not lost on me that you go directly to the Haley years, a guy Rooney brought in to prolong Ben’s career cuz Mike’s guy would’ve shortened Ben’s career by 5-10 years. He had autonomy in his offense per many reports. Those are the same years you keep going back to…the years Mike was minimally involved per reports.

2) There is zero urban legend to it unless all the guys in the huddle were lying…highly unlikely

3) Also how many times did you watch Tomlin and his inept schemes choke the offense for three quarters only for everything to open up once Ben started calling his own game in hurry up mode? All those comeback victories weren’t a credit to the offensive genius of Mike but having a future HoF QB.

Good lawd, I know you love defending the man against all comers but the shyte was beyond obvious.

An X an O coach he was not
Offensive minded?!?! Even less so
A hurdle to offense-most definitely

The offensive minded credit you’re giving Tomlin was 99.9% the Ben factor (and when Mike was removed from the offense “the Haley years”) and him having some weapons. When he was allowed to use the weapons he blew **** up.

Now maybe if Mike actually was defensive minded he could put a top notch defense together with all the assets thrown to “his” side of the ball and the Steelers may have gotten another couple/few Lombardis…

Which begs the question:

Was Mike even really defensive minded?

 

[slashsteel]

You are moving the goalposts. I was responding specifically to the argument made which was what could have Ben done with an "offensively minded" head coach. I am thinking mostly of those years from 2014-2018. The stats show without doubt that the Steelers had a great offense in those years, making the original argument weak. The problem in those years, and why they didn't win anything even with all those stats, resides on the defensive side of the ball. He moved on from Dick LeBeau. He rolled out a defense that had starting corners like Ross Cockrell, Artie Burns and Antwon Blake. The safeties at various times were Mike Mitchell and Sean Davis. I've been a fan for over 50 years and don't think there has been a player on the Steelers I disliked as much as Mike Mitchell. Look, you were there, you know. The lack of success in those years had little to do with his lack of "offensive mindedness." It was his hands in the defense that caused the lack of success in those years. I just think it is important to be historically accurate.

Is that really a defense of him?

I wasn’t moving the goal post I was giving you a complete picture.

I was showing you that you were just looking at one narrow outlook. One narrow time frame.

Canada is a very relevant convo to the subject.

Lack of success did have to do with the offense as well. As they weren’t up for the playoff challenge.

Also those offensive weapons were not maximized as they came with too many problems. Look at how many teams have offensive success in the playoffs with internal issues.

And no Mike really wasn’t X and O proficient on either side of the ball to answer your question.