I found Jeff Sessions

[Ron Burgundy]

Why in the hell he didn't appoint Trey Gowdy is beyond comprehension.

Only thing I can think of is that 1) Gowdy is more valuable in Congress and 2) some establishment types got to Trump and he appointed another establishment guy (who was replaced by a Democrat).

 

[Supersteeler]

All good points, and I won't argue them. But I will say to dismiss pot as a potential gateway drug to others is silly. It's proven to be. The fact that the user numbs to the effect of marijuana over time leads them to looking for other drugs with which to fill the void. Yes prescription pills and alcohol are also culprits, but to say pot is not as well is naive.

Marijuana Has Proven to Be a Gateway Drug

Robert L. DuPont is the president of the Institute for Behavior and Health and the first director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse.

I think weed and booze are about equal as a gateway drug and often kids will experiment with them at the same time starting out. Weed and beer are the first substances risk taking kids can usually get their hands on so yeah they often start with it before they graduate to the harder stuff. But alcohol is highly addictive for many people. Weed has the same addiction properties as cigarettes which are significant. However, stopping weed does not have major withdrawal symptoms so it isn't all that physically hard on the body to stop smoking it. The withdrawal symptoms are more of an annoyance, like quitting cigarettes. In fact there is only one drug on Earth that has withdrawal symptoms that can be fatal by themselves. And it's not heroin.......it's alcohol.

 

[Troglodyte]

All good points, and I won't argue them. But I will say to dismiss pot as a potential gateway drug to others is silly. It's proven to be. The fact that the user numbs to the effect of marijuana over time leads them to looking for other drugs with which to fill the void. Yes prescription pills and alcohol are also culprits, but to say pot is not as well is naive.

No, it’s addictive personalities. Some people get addicted to anything and everything. Some people like any kind of highs, others are more picky. I’ve known heavy stoners who never touched anything else and I’ve known coke users who didn’t like marijuana. If someone progresses from marijuana to heroin, it’s not the marijuana, it’s them.

Prescription pain killers ARE opioids, it’s the same high as heroin. It’s not a gateway, it’s an initiation.

 

[Troglodyte]

That would certainly gain some black and hispanic voters for the GOP.

You need to get out of Rochester. I know of two fairly affluent Trumptards who are stoners.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

No, it’s addictive personalities. Some people get addicted to anything and everything. Some people like any kind of highs, others are more picky. I’ve known heavy stoners who never touched anything else and I’ve known coke users who didn’t like marijuana. If someone progresses from marijuana to heroin, it’s not the marijuana, it’s them.

Prescription pain killers ARE opioids, it’s the same high as heroin. It’s not a gateway, it’s an initiation.

Let me guess, you're a pot user?

I am utterly stunned.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

No, it’s addictive personalities. Some people get addicted to anything and everything. Some people like any kind of highs, others are more picky. I’ve known heavy stoners who never touched anything else and I’ve known coke users who didn’t like marijuana. If someone progresses from marijuana to heroin, it’s not the marijuana, it’s them.

Exactly. Almost every recovering addict I know drinks coffee and smokes cigarettes like crazy. Except for my cousin who got off drugs and is now addicted to food and weighs well north of 3 bills.

Prescription pain killers ARE opioids, it’s the same high as heroin. It’s not a gateway, it’s an initiation.

Around this time 6 years ago I was recovering from surgery that did not go well from complications and post-op infection, and in the middle of spending 5 months in my living room popping pain killers like candy. I was on it so long that I had withdrawl when I quit taking it. Severe cramps, headaches, nausea. I'm not an addictive personality so I couldn't wait to get off the stuff but I got my last script just so I could taper down. I can see how that can happen to some people.

You need to get out of Rochester. I know of two fairly affluent Trumptards who are stoners.

Libertarians like Trump too.

 

[Confluence]

I'll say this Del. I don't think you can separate marijuana and the opiod crisis. Yeah, I'm gonna go down the gateway drug route.

See the thing with pot is is that it loses impact on the human over time. That first joint makes someone really high. Become a regular pot smoker and it may take 4 joints for you to experience the same high you had when you first tried it. So the user, who's addicted to the high (not the pot) looks for that experience and experiments with other drugs when pot stops working.

Is it coincidence that over the past many years where more and more states and municipalities have legalized pot that we have likewise seen an ever growing opiod epidemic? I can't prove one is tied to the other, but it's suspicious.

I'd like to think that if we had fewer pot smokers, we'd subsequently have fewer opiod users.

Tim,

If you grant that
1) addictive personalities are clearly a factor in some/many addictions, and
2) most youth have far easier access to booze and pot than meth/heroin/coke/opiates

It is possible that your gateway linkage is not causal. I would urge you to do your own research on the healthcare costs and deaths associated with all of the hard drugs above, and alcohol and cannabis.

I'd be very surprised that you wouldn't do a complete 180 on cannabis, because the data is beyond compelling.

You will find most government sponsored research very similar in comparison to that of climate change.

That doesn't mean teenagers should be smoking pot, or drinking , etc. at all. Far from it.

But the demonization of cannabis, mostly incredibly powerful, yet VERY WRONG marketing from/for big pharma, has caused massive social and economic costs.

Please investigate with an open mind.


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[SteelChip]

All good points, and I won't argue them. But I will say to dismiss pot as a potential gateway drug to others is silly. It's proven to be. The fact that the user numbs to the effect of marijuana over time leads them to looking for other drugs with which to fill the void. Yes prescription pills and alcohol are also culprits, but to say pot is not as well is naive.

Marijuana Has Proven to Be a Gateway Drug]

It is very rare that a person tries heroin or cocaine as the first experience with drugs. Instead, most people who do try drugs have already been using a “gateway drug” for some time leading up to that point. The real shocker is what is considered to be a gateway drug.

The 3 Gateways to Drug Addiction

Nicotine

For many people smoking cigarettes is just another thing they do, similar to drinking coffee. All too often, however, it is a gateway into hard drug use. A person who starts smoking, after all, has taken up using a drug, and will get used to the experience of using a drug to feel better. It is only a small leap from smoking cigarettes to smoking pot or snorting coke to feel better or to have fun at a party.

Marijuana

Most people who start out using marijuana don’t plan to end up as hard drug users. After all, pot has a widespread public image as a “soft” drug, “just an herb” and a drug that is not addictive. People are supposed to be able to safely use marijuana without getting hooked or suffering an overdose, and the drug is even purported to have a long list of medicinal effects. Laying aside any of the debates about the uses of cannabis, it is a well established fact that people who use marijuana are more likely to also use harder drugs like cocaine, heroin and ecstasy. Some people do get away with using marijuana without ending up as drug addicts, but all too many others don’t.

Alcohol

Beer, wine, and liquor of various types are among the most widely consumed beverages in the United States, and they are also some of the most commonly used drugs. Just as with tobacco, alcohol is a socially acceptable gateway drug that serves as the starting point for many people who end up as drug addicts. People commonly start out drinking socially, end up making alcohol a part of their routine more and more throughout the week, and before long find themselves counting down the hours until they can get home and open a bottle, or looking to alcohol for the relief and refuge that they need. Even if the person doesn’t become an alcoholic, there is still the risk that he or she will transition from drinking into using drugs.
http://www.narconon.org/blog/drug-addiction/3-gateways-drug-addiction/

What surprises me is that cough medicine didn't make this list...or glue.

 

[Hypocycloids]

You need to get out of Rochester. I know of two fairly affluent Trumptards who are stoners.

And?

What does that have to do with Burgundys post to which you replied?

 

[Ron Burgundy]

And?

What does that have to do with Burgundys post to which you replied?

Nothing. Trog just likes to take shots at Republicans every chance he gets. Because, you know, we're monolithic and all Republicans want all the same things.

 

[Troglodyte]

Let me guess, you're a pot user?

I am utterly stunned.

No, I went to college and wasn’t socially awkward.

 

[Supersteeler]

Let me guess, you're a pot user?

I am utterly stunned.

I've never smoked weed once in my life. Doesn't change my opinion.

 

[Troglodyte]

And?

What does that have to do with Burgundys post to which you replied?

I should have added “white and over 50”. The point being that there are stoners across many demographics, even 50+ year-old, affluent, white male Trump voters.

 

[Hypocycloids]

Nothing. Trog just likes to take shots at Republicans every chance he gets. Because, you know, we're monolithic and all Republicans want all the same things.

Definitely a possibility... or it was that liberal kneejerk self defense mechanism that kicks in, always resulting in a nonsensical rebuttal.

Normal person: "Legalizing weed may sway blacks and Hispanics who are serving time to vote Republican"

Kneejerk liberal:"AFFLUENT TRUMP VOTERS SMOKE WEED TOO YA KNOW. YOU PROFILING RACIST!!!!

WTF???

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Definitely a possibility... or it was that liberal kneejerk self defense mechanism that kicks in, always resulting in a nonsensical rebuttal.

That's why I don't pay a lot of attention to him. I know what he's going to say, standard Liberal mantra. Yawn.

 

[Hypocycloids]

I lean more towards just legalizing the stuff, but I don't see how you can completely dismiss the "gateway drug " factor..

Primarily among teens. Looking for next thrill is what teens do, and have always done. It's in their DNA.

Whether it involves drugs, petty crime, or seeing how fast this car will go after just receiving their drivers license. Its a challenge, a thrill.

 

[oneforthebus]

On the one hand, I agree that marijuana is a gateway drug, so is alcohol. On the other hand, kids are already smoking pot everywhere legal or not. In our (upper middle class) neighborhood I've hear it's easier for kids to get than alcohol. Maybe it's better if it can be commercialized so at least they know what's in the pot they're smoking.

I've heard there are people hanging out all over the place stoned out of their minds in Colorado. Doesn't seem like it will be too good for society. At least if it's illegal they have to keep it to themselves somewhat.

I go back and forth on this.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

I've never smoked weed once in my life. Doesn't change my opinion.

Wasn't addressing you, but since you brought up the word "opinion" please note I came to the thread with more than just my own thoughts on the matter. I quoted a NY Times piece by Dr. Dupont (his biography below), former Drug Czar to two Presidents. I agree with his opinion.

Robert L. DuPont (born March 25, 1936 in Toledo, Ohio) is a national leader in marijuana policy, drug policy and treatment. He was the first Director of the National Institute on Drug Abuse (NIDA) from 1973 to 1978 and was the second White House Drug Czar from 1973 to 1977 under former Presidents Richard Nixon and Gerald Ford. In 1978 Dr. DuPont became the founding President of the Institute for Behavior and Health, Inc. In 1982 he and Peter B. Bensinger founded Bensinger, DuPont & Associates, a national consulting firm. Dr. DuPont is a Fellow of the American Society of Addiction Medicine and a Life Fellow of the American Psychiatric Association. He was the founding president of the Anxiety Disorders Association of America (ADAA) and currently maintains a psychiatric practice in Maryland specializing in addiction and anxiety disorders.

In 1958 Dr. DuPont earned his BA from Emory University and in 1963 earned his M.D. from Harvard Medical School. He completed training at Harvard and the National Institutes of Health. He worked for the District of Columbia Department of Corrections and in 1970 for the DC Narcotics Treatment Administration. Since 1980 he has been a Clinical Professor of Psychiatry at the Georgetown University School of Medicine.

Published books from Hazelden include The Selfish Brain: Learning from Addiction Drug Testing in Treatment Settings, Drug Testing in Schools, and Drug Testing in Correctional Settings.

Everyone else is offering anecdotes (I believe, or I knew a guy, or every addict I knew...)

There is no denying that marijuana IS a gateway drug to harder drugs.

Wanna argue if alcohol or tobacco is a greater gateway drug, that's fine. I don't care. I just know that the pot road gets worse for many users (not all). Those are just facts.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

On the one hand, I agree that marijuana is a gateway drug, so is alcohol. On the other hand, kids are already smoking pot everywhere legal or not. In our (upper middle class) neighborhood I've hear it's easier for kids to get than alcohol. Maybe it's better if it can be commercialized so at least they know what's in the pot they're smoking.

I've heard there are people hanging out all over the place stoned out of their minds in Colorado. Doesn't seem like it will be too good for society. At least if it's illegal they have to keep it to themselves somewhat.

I go back and forth on this.

It won't be. Alcohol and tobacco use already cost this nation and her inhabitants a great deal.

Again per Dr. Dupont, and you can find evidence of this elsewhere (just look at the leading causes of death, etc)...

The currently legal drugs, alcohol and tobacco, are two of the leading causes of preventable illness and death in the country. Establishing marijuana as a third legal drug will increase the national drug abuse problem, including expanding the opioid epidemic.​

Pot will increase the number of preventable illnesses in this country. As if we need more.

From the American Lung Association:

Smoking marijuana clearly damages the human lung, and regular use leads to chronic bronchitis and can cause an immune-compromised person to be more susceptible to lung infections. No one should be exposed to secondhand marijuana smoke.

Research shows that smoking marijuana causes chronic bronchitis and marijuana smoke has been shown to injure the cell linings of the large airways, which could explain why smoking marijuana leads to symptoms such as chronic cough, phlegm production, wheeze and acute bronchitis.4,9

Smoking marijuana has also been linked to cases of air pockets in between both lungs and between the lungs and the chest wall, as well as large air bubbles in the lungs among young to middle-aged adults, mostly heavy smokers of marijuana.

Smoking marijuana can harm more than just the lungs and respiratory system - it can also affect the immune system and the body's ability to fight disease

Smoking marijuana hurts the lungs' first line of defense against infection by killing cells that help remove dust and germs as well as causing more mucus to be formed. In addition, it also suppresses the immune system. These effects could lead to an increased risk of lower respiratory tract infections among marijuana smokers

Another potential threat to those with weakened immune systems is Aspergillus, a mold that can cause lung disorders. It can grow on marijuana, which if then smoked exposes the lungs to this fungus

Then there's pot and lung cancer.

“People are under the illusion it is safe to smoke cannabis,” Dame Helena Shovelton, chief executive of the British Lung Foundation, said in 2014. A report conducted by the foundation found that the dangers of smoking marijuana are on par with tobacco smoke.

Any smoke has the potential to damage your lungs, no matter where it comes from.

“Heavy marijuana smokers also are likely to develop lung damage because marijuana smoke contains many of the same harmful chemicals as tobacco smoke,” The American Thoracic Foundation wrote on its website. Of the 70 cancer-causing chemicals in tobacco, 30 of those are also found in marijuana, according to the American Cancer Society.

Weed is more dangerous, according to Shovelton, because you inhale deeper than you do with regular cigarette smoke, leading to “more poisonous carbon monoxide and tar entering into the lungs,” she told the Daily Mail.

And, like with tobacco, secondhand marijuana smoke can be dangerous because it contains “many poisons including cyanide and ammonia,” according to the ATS.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Then there's pot and lung cancer.

I don't think you put filters on your weed like cigarettes have. So I'm told.

 

[Confluence]

Establishing marijuana as a third legal drug will increase the national drug abuse problem[/COLOR], including expanding the opioid epidemic.[/B][/]
.

Tim,

You are factually incorrect.

Cannabis products, including those derived from hemp(no THC), provide for a lesser need for pain meds of all kinds. Pharmacists are helping the DEA reduce opioids in scripts by recommending CBD use and a reduction in opiate use.

Cannabis = hemp + marijuana

Hemp has virtually no THC and has been grown for thousands of years on 6 continents, and is now FEDERALLY legally produced in many states as an agricultural commodity.

The DuPont family (any relation to your researcher?) was behind the eradication and criminalization of hemp in the 30s, lumping it in with marijuana in the Marijuana Tax Act of 1937. This terrible legislation, pushed forward by the newly emerging chemical and pharma companies in the US and the British Commonwealth, snared the helpful hemp along with marijuana, because it really helped the duPonts with their new nylon for clothing and rope. They did a nice job, for themselves. Wanna guess what replaced this crop in America's farmland? Tobacco. This was the largest crime of the 20th century, forwarded by government, chemical and pharma companies.

Marijuana, the target of Sessions, has this psychoactive THC, that is rightly a Controlled Substance. It is the THC content, not the rest of the cannabis plant that has effect on brain development in folks. Like alcohol.

This THC may have other beneficial effects, or may just get folks high. More work needs done.

But the rest of cannabis, including this agricultural hemp, has been shamefully excluded from the western world for 75+ years. Big pharma really doesn't like this, which is more than enough to convince most people that hemp ought to be readily available from American farmers.


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[Troglodyte]

Alcohol and tobacco use already cost this nation and her inhabitants a great deal.

As does junk food, where do you stop criminalizing things that are bad for people?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Tim,

You are factually incorrect.

Flu, sorry we agree on most things. But you simply cannot say that the claim is factually incorrect unless you can prove that pot does not lead to some people switching to more intense drugs.

Yours is an opinion. And there are studies on BOTH sides of this argument supporting both positions - those that show pot leads to increased usage of heavier drugs and those that claim it does not.

At best we can agree upon it being unsettled science. I for one believe pot does lead some % of users to switch to more nefarious narcotics. There are many Doctors and professionals that agree.

I could post a thousand links as could you.

https://www.drugabuse.gov/publications/research-reports/marijuana/marijuana-gateway-drug
https://rehab-international.org/blog/more-evidence-that-marijuana-is-a-gateway-drug

As does junk food, where do you stop criminalizing things that are bad for people?

Isn't that a question for Liberals?

 

[deljzc]

To me, the government has kind of lost their ability to regulate these things because I'm disenfranchised with the FDA and the ATF.

There is no logic (except in government) that alcohol and tobacco are governed by anything BUT the food and drug administration. And for too long (and this is very similar to our climate change debates), the food and drug administration puts out "facts" about stuff that is incorrect. I'm convinced most of the FDA's inaccuracies come from lobbying but the food industries.

I'm not a big fan of "sin taxes" because they are hidden taxes that greatly effect the middle/lower classes in this country and don't seem to curb behavior.

So all that said what really needs to happen is some radical changes and a big overhaul to our FDA.

1. All drugs need to be re-evaluated to their correct classes of drug. This is likely where I would establish alcohol, canniboids, tobacco and maybe even caffeine as regulated low-level drugs. This takes THC probably off the class 1 drug list.
2. A distinction needs to be made between a NATURAL, GROWN plant that contains a drug (i.e. coffee to caffeine, tobacco to nicotine, marijuana to THC, etc.) and the actual drug itself. I think for the most part, I am all for natural stuff being loosely regulated, but when companies distill and sell the drug part in very high concentrated forms, I'm against it. I have strong concerns with liquid nicotine, super caffeine drinks/shots, and THC drops, etc. (or even food with distilled THC in them). Just because I want pot legal doesn't mean that anything with THC is legal. Big difference to me.
3. We really need to do a better job at the FDA of getting health science correct and free from lobbyists and getting that information to consumers. We shouldn't have to pass LAWS all the time to protect people from themselves but we can do a better job of education and information. I'm of the opinion you let people make their own choices and own mistakes.

I guess I'm not saying marijuana is "good", only that it's hypocritical to me to say it's different than alcohol or tobacco. All three need regulation to some degree and all three I am concerned about with high concentrations of the synthesized drug.

We can keep things like cocaine, opioids, etc. with higher drug class with even tighter restrictions, illegality and criminalization.

Nothing is "final". If we legalize pot and it ends up being a bad decision, we can change it back.

 

[coupon]

Hysteria is debilitating


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