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2017 NFL Draft Q&A

TMC

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Thanks, TMC. Yes, Boston College, John Johnson. Sorry, my memory is getting worse plus the names are either super similar (Josh Jones, John Johnson) or DeOntravious McKelroy or something impossible to remember.

Nice write up and story about Johnson BUT could he slip to 4 or later? Every year we have a chance at guys who rated higher BUT if you take all the guys graded at round 2-3, they won't fit in 64 picks. I think this year is gonna be even more slippage since there are so many TEs, Ss, CBs and Rush prospects at or near the 1-3 range.

Justin Simmons had better film than John Johnson. He is bigger, faster, better shuttle, just a better overall prospect. Simmons went at the end of the 3rd and this draft is much deeper at DB and all over really, so I don't think that is a stretch at all.
 

steelpastor

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TMC and Del...

I have been looking for anything on Adam*Shaheen... the small school TE out of Ashland University. I am seeing everything from 2nd round to 5th round?

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TMC

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TMC and Del...

I have been looking for anything on Adam*Shaheen... the small school TE out of Ashland University. I am seeing everything from 2nd round to 5th round?

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I watched 3 or 4 of his games and I think he is closer to the 5th than the 2nd, for me anyway. I just don't know if he makes us any better and this is why, he is a big TE, but even at Ashland, he was not blowing people up as a blocker. He is effective and walls guys off, even gets some push, but he was far from dominant and he was often the biggest dude on the field. He had pretty good workout numbers for a big TE, but not for a TE in general. He is about the same size as Jesse James (a little heavier), not quite as strong or fast, and really doesn't offer more than James does as a receiver. You don't see great speed on film but in one or two instances, he just doesn't play that big or fast, and that was against a lower level of competition. I know he blew up because of his size and athletic traits, but I think, at best, he is a #2 TE in this league. I like James better. James has already shown he can do it, Shaheen hasn't and at a 2nd round price, I'm just not interested. He is in the bucket with Peppers for me, I like them both as football players, cannot really state they cannot play the game, both are likeable guys, just don't like them highly enough where I want to spend the pick it takes to get them. If I can add Shaheen in the 5th (or Peppers in the 3rd), I'd take them both and figure out how to use them. I just think where they are going to go, there are better players at the same position that fit what we need and what we want to do.
 

TMC

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How about Leggettt, Kittle and Hodges?

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A lot of people discount Leggett because he has the nickname Lazy Leggett, but he owns it. He stated he was lazy early in his career. He also learned how to work, became a team leader, and is praised by his coaches. And, he made some big plays through the season, works to help his QB, almost a steadying influence. And, if not for some of the big plays he made against Alabama, I don't think they come back. It wasn't just catches either, he ran routes that opened other guys, rubbed a guy near the endzone to free a WR for an easy TD. Had a big catch on 3rd or 4th down for a first. Just kept them in the fight...now, other guys were there too, but he did not shy away from a huge moment. Is considered a leader in the TE/receiving room. Sets an example for the younger guys. That is big.

I think Kittle is an athletic freak that will just get better. He could improve as a blocker, kind of raw right now, but he works at it, gives he effort, has some issues with hand placement and stuff he needs to clean up to be more effective. His athleticism flashes as a receiver, almost still learning how to use it. Good hands, good prospect. I'd take Kittle of Shaheen.

As for Hodges, he is in the Evan Engram realm for me, so I don't want him. He rarely lines up inline. He doesn't block well. He is a big WR, like Engram. Sure, mismatches in the passing game, but why not just draft a 6'3" WR that can run? I just don't see the value in a TE that cannot or will not block. I'm not talking about lacking the power/ability to do it, I'm talking more that he lacks the desire to mix it up. Don't know about him, just not that interested. He just doesn't fit what I like. We have Green in that mold. If we draft a 3rd, I'd rather it be a guy between Green and James, works as a blocker but a little more athletic as a receiver, someone like Leggitt, Kittle, the kid from South Alabama, or even Jake Butt.
 

deljzc

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This is a very good tight end class so before I criticize, understand in a normal year the guys you mentioned are good prospects.

The only guy I am going to single out immediately is Bucky Hodges. He is not a tight end. He will never be a tight end. I don't quite understand why the draftnik community keeps calling him that. He is Devin Funchess or Dorial Green-Beckham. He played almost exclusively as a wide WR trying to find one-on-one matchups where he could out leap people. That's his game. If you want that, great. Those guys get drafted and the good ones produce TD's. They are not often great between-the-20's but in red zone situations, they can be nightmares.

As for the others, I like them all. They are all different. I like Engram much more than TMC. He asks about finding a WR that can run, but Engram CAN RUN. Guys 234 that run 4.42 don't grow on trees. And Engram has good hands. He is never going to play in-line. That is not his game. But he cracks down from his slot position and blocks okay (not great). He gets in the way and can man up on a DB blocking okay. He can motion into the backfield and lead block (although he need work on this). And Engram is physical. He mixes it up. He likes to throw his weight around in the secondary.

Shaheen is like watching high school tape. He is hard to pin down. I agree he is a bit overhyped and he probably won't come into play for us until round 3. But his size/athleticism are so tempting. He is just so prototypical for the position and moves so well. But his film is not as great as it should be. If he was really Gronkowski, he'd be throwing guys at that level around like rag dolls and he wasn't. His functional, football strength might need to be refined.

TMC likes Leggett a lot (and defends him), but I'm kind of meh on him. I could take him or leave him. The film I saw he reminds me of Jace Amero. He lacks a bit of physicality to his game. Likes clean routes (which he won't get at the next level running a 4.70). Yes, he can do probably all the things you ask of a TE, but I question his ability to fight throw the trash and not sure he just has that desire to hit people like a guy his size should have.

Kittle is really a tempting talent. When I scouted him he was listed at 6'2" and 235 lbs. Then he shows up at the combine and is 6036 and 247 with the same arm length as Shaheen and Leggett. Runs a legit 4.50. Blocks everything he sees in the open field textbook perfect. Reminds me a ton of Maxx Williams (who is struggling to find his roll in the NFL however). The only thing about Kittle is he is probably maxed out. He's not going to get that much better. What you see is what you get (which is good).

My tight end rankings for the Steelers:

Howard, Njoku - pick #30
Everett, Engram - pick #62
Shaheen, Kittle, Leggett - pick #94/#105 (Sprinkle might be here too but has some work ethic issues)
Butt, Smith - 4th round
 

TMC

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I Feel that Eddie Jackson (Safety from Alabama) is kind of off the radar of most evaluators. He has had some injuries during his career that has limited him. He has two years at CB before switching to Safety. He has an eye for the ball and has return ability. He was a permanent Captain for the Tide... that says something about his leadership. He broke his leg half way thru the 2016 season... so no Combine or Pro Day numbers.

What is your take on him and when would he come into play... 4th round?

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I missed this earlier and I am sorry about that, but I really don't have a great grade on Jackson. He seems hesitant at times to get into the action, can take some bad angles to the football and gets beaten to the edge because he failed to judge the speed correctly, that will be worse on the next level. He is rated pretty well on a lot of sites, but I just don't think he translates. If your an average safety at Alabama this year, those corners and front seven hide a lot.
 

Steelerfan81

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For what it's worth this may be the best thread in SN history when it comes to information and debate. Good work fellas. Almost 700 posts.
 

TMC

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As for the others, I like them all. They are all different. I like Engram much more than TMC. He asks about finding a WR that can run, but Engram CAN RUN. Guys 234 that run 4.42 don't grow on trees. And Engram has good hands. He is never going to play in-line. That is not his game. But he cracks down from his slot position and blocks okay (not great). He gets in the way and can man up on a DB blocking okay. He can motion into the backfield and lead block (although he need work on this). And Engram is physical. He mixes it up. He likes to throw his weight around in the secondary.

A couple points, completely agree on Hodges, big WR that doesn't play inline. I feel Engram is the same, he is such a bad blocker, I mean it is painful to watch. As a WR, he is big and can run. I cannot argue that at all. Good hands....not so sure, he dropped 10% of his catchable passes in 2016. I mean, good hands, I guess, I don't see that as good, for me, TEs are guys that catch everything. And, some of his drops were ugly, I mean, wide open walk into the endzone, hits you in the hands and you drop it stuff. Painful.

When I said you can get big WRs that can run, I really don't sweat a WR's weight, not really what I meant. I mean, if Martavis is 200 or 210 or 220, does it really matter when he is high pointing the football? So, what I meant when I said it was WRs that were taller and can run, say over 6'2" and running sub-4.5 forties. There were 5 that fit that parameter at the combine and many more than have done it at a pro day. And, there are guys outside the first two rounds like Josh Reynolds, Josh Malone, Mack Hollins, Kenny Golladay, Malachi Dupre, Robert Davis, Jehu Chesson, Quincy Adeboyejo, Tim Patrick, Francis Owusu, and others who give you the same height/speed variables without the high end price of a Engram. That is really my point. Engram is more like a tall, fast WR than he is a pure TE, so if I can get Robert Davis in the 6th, a big, fast WR, why not take him at a 6th round pick than Engram at #30 or middle 2nd where he likely goes. Again, just not sold on what it costs me to get the guy because I don't view him as a complete TE.

And, I realize I am on an island and have Leggett higher than most, and it is pretty hard for me to be there with a Clemson guy. But, I think he becomes a good TE.
 

kev4heels

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A couple points, completely agree on Hodges, big WR that doesn't play inline. I feel Engram is the same, he is such a bad blocker, I mean it is painful to watch. As a WR, he is big and can run. I cannot argue that at all. Good hands....not so sure, he dropped 10% of his catchable passes in 2016. I mean, good hands, I guess, I don't see that as good, for me, TEs are guys that catch everything. And, some of his drops were ugly, I mean, wide open walk into the endzone, hits you in the hands and you drop it stuff. Painful.

When I said you can get big WRs that can run, I really don't sweat a WR's weight, not really what I meant. I mean, if Martavis is 200 or 210 or 220, does it really matter when he is high pointing the football? So, what I meant when I said it was WRs that were taller and can run, say over 6'2" and running sub-4.5 forties. There were 5 that fit that parameter at the combine and many more than have done it at a pro day. And, there are guys outside the first two rounds like Josh Reynolds, Josh Malone, Mack Hollins, Kenny Golladay, Malachi Dupre, Robert Davis, Jehu Chesson, Quincy Adeboyejo, Tim Patrick, Francis Owusu, and others who give you the same height/speed variables without the high end price of a Engram. That is really my point. Engram is more like a tall, fast WR than he is a pure TE, so if I can get Robert Davis in the 6th, a big, fast WR, why not take him at a 6th round pick than Engram at #30 or middle 2nd where he likely goes. Again, just not sold on what it costs me to get the guy because I don't view him as a complete TE.

And, I realize I am on an island and have Leggett higher than most, and it is pretty hard for me to be there with a Clemson guy. But, I think he becomes a good TE.

I watched the guys at the Combine or Senior Bowl (can't remember which one), try to show Hodges how to get down in a 3pt stance. The guy had no clue.
He looked VERY awkward doing it. Not trying to bag on the kid b/c I just don't think that's what he is. He is a gigantic WR. I like him for us in rd 3.
 

Coach

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Final thoughts.

GO BPA for EDGE or CB in round one. This is a deep CB class.

Round two if we went edge, cornerback is a no brainer.

For picks 3A and 3B, TE, QB, and DB should be in play.

I would not be opposed to trading up in round two. We do have an extra third to offer.
 

ZACKB

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QB in rd 3 seems too early for me. why not go TE or wr there?


Final thoughts.

GO BPA for EDGE or CB in round one. This is a deep CB class.

Round two if we went edge, cornerback is a no brainer.

For picks 3A and 3B, TE, QB, and DB should be in play.

I would not be opposed to trading up in round two. We do have an extra third to offer.
 

fedderone

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TMC - In case you're not following, could you weigh in on Kizer in the Kizer thread?
I posted a question to you in there.

Thanks.
 

ZACKB

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TMC, do you think MacKinley , Rivers, or Lawson will be there at the end of rd 2?
 

TMC

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TMC, do you think MacKinley , Rivers, or Lawson will be there at the end of rd 2?

McKinley won't. He might not make it to the end of R1. For some reason, he is drawing comparisons to Bud Dupree. I don't see that, but I do see how he could go higher. Lawson and Rivers have a shot. I'd give them a coin flip chance. Rivers more than Lawson for me. The whole small school thing should ding him a little.
 

CorpusDsteelers

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With all the CB left and our lack to stop the short passes I'd think we need a corner nickel or an explosive TE not a project
 

tapeANaspirin2it

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This is the toughest draft i've ever seen for predicting the Steelers. Usually, it's pretty easy to pick out steeler type players at various positions. I may not know which specific guys they pick, but usually every pick is a guy i considered as a possibility.

They seem to be changing they types of players they're looking at. CB used to be such an easy position to pick out Steeler type players. You looked for physical, zone CBs who could tackle. And you focused on guys who would go in round 3 or later.

Now they seems to be looking to add more man cover guys. Senquez Golson never would have been a steeler years ago. I never would have even looked at guys like Adore Jackson or Budda Baker but now I could see either as a possibility.

This is a very deep DB draft and with the steelers now looking at a much wider array, it means there could be like 15-20 DBs that the steelers think can play immediately. If they think DB 20 is about the same as DB 7 then they can wait and draft something else in RD 1.

Since OLB is also deep, i can see them waiting on OLB as well. This means round 1 really could be a pure Best Player Available situation.

I can make a case for Round 1 for QB, RB, TE, WR, OLB, CB, or S.
 

slashsteel

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This is the toughest draft i've ever seen for predicting the Steelers. Usually, it's pretty easy to pick out steeler type players at various positions. I may not know which specific guys they pick, but usually every pick is a guy i considered as a possibility.

They seem to be changing they types of players they're looking at. CB used to be such an easy position to pick out Steeler type players. You looked for physical, zone CBs who could tackle. And you focused on guys who would go in round 3 or later.

Now they seems to be looking to add more man cover guys. Senquez Golson never would have been a steeler years ago. I never would have even looked at guys like Adore Jackson or Budda Baker but now I could see either as a possibility.

This is a very deep DB draft and with the steelers now looking at a much wider array, it means there could be like 15-20 DBs that the steelers think can play immediately. If they think DB 20 is about the same as DB 7 then they can wait and draft something else in RD 1.

Since OLB is also deep, i can see them waiting on OLB as well. This means round 1 really could be a pure Best Player Available situation.

I can make a case for Round 1 for QB, RB, TE, WR, OLB, CB, or S.

I think with all the troubled players all the attractive value OLBers might be off the board.

Which would leave the Steelers picking a TE or S or CB.
 

TMC

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I have a bad feeling in my gut that it will be Jabrill Peppers. I'm holding out hope someone ahead of us takes him.
 

Ike Kelly

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