Being a fan of the developing Chaos...

[Confluence]

Yes I do and my taxes pay for my use. All I expect is others to do the same.

Exactly as most others do. Who said anything about paying taxes? (just you did)

The electricity you need keeps your home cool or heated to keep you healthy, your fridge and stove working to prepare healthy food, etc.
The water is clean for your healthful use.
The waste is removed, through plumbing/sewers/pickup so that your environment is healthy.
The telecommunications that you use, or not, keeps you informed as you choose.

The delivery/use of each of these systems is beneficial for individuals and society collectively.
Because of the widespread use, only one or a small number of regulated providers (corporate or government) effectively controls your access and supply.

Maybe you have some neighbors that use way too much water, or way too much electricity so there are meters to control access/use/extra billing.
But the cost to the individual, and to the aggregated community is cheaper because of the common delivery system.

I just don't see much of a difference from these already normalized, regulated systems for healthy life as much different from basic health care for the same population.
We can agree that overly expensive utilities, ineffective service, etc. are indeed real, but what you generally don't see is a bunch of lawyers, lobbyists, politicians, etc. all grabbing dollars from these established systems, especially at the rate that happens in anything medical/pharma.

 

[SteelerSask2]

So after the thousand disrespectful things said by Mr. President aka the ***** grabber. People are supposed to be respectful of him because of the office. Haha that is rich. No he cheapens the office and has made a farce of democracy. What a joke.

 

[hamster]

So after the thousand disrespectful things said by Mr. President aka the ***** grabber. People are supposed to be respectful of him because of the office. Haha that is rich. No he cheapens the office and has made a farce of democracy. What a joke.

Thank goodness you are in your Saskatoon safe space, and don't need to worry about Making America Great Again. We will let you know when it has been accomplished.

 

[Stewey]

Healthcare is not a right it is a commodity.

Gas, water, electric are not commodities, they are utilities.

Utilities are required virtually every day by virtually every citizen, healthcare is not.

On the subject of healthcare and economics, this guy knows his ****.

 

[fedderone]

Maybe you're unaware that governmental entities run things like electrical utilities, water utilities, energy utilities, regulate what is "food" and how it is produced, regulate telecommunications, garbage pickup, garbage dumps, road maintenance, landscaping services, etc. as monopolies, or contract same out to entities that follow strict regulation as monopolies. Yes, problems do happen with any/all governmental oversight, and I'm not arguing that they do a better job. I will argue, repeatedly, that the provision of basic health-care in a way that doesn't bankrupt any citizen, should be the goal of a wealthy, enlightened society.
The problem is in the distribution, and would seem like most arguments simply get misdirected here, helped by the onslaught of lobbyists from insurance, medical and pharma groups. Ask yourself if these folks are self-serving, like defence contractors or politicians. Simply streamlining distribution removes huge costs in almost every "business", including the governmental services above, and for the likes of Costco, Amazon, Walmart, supermarkets, Home Depot, etc....

From my perspective, society can be decent, provide basic health care (very sick people are always going to die, and regardless of treatment, some of their loved ones will be upset) simply by streamlining distribution and dumping lobbyists. Just like getting food from Costco, the quality and price can be of great benefit once the distribution get aligned more efficiently. The rest of the arguments just seems like emotional bullshit, or clear lobbying from a selfish perspective.

From all the things you listed above, the only one of them that the FEDERAL government runs is the FDA ( food and drug admin ). The rest are local governments, handled locally.
The reason is what could we possibly expect Chuck Schumer to know about the plight of those in Bozeman Montana? Or what Rob Portman knows about the needs of those in Biloxi Mississippi?
Everyone needs to drink water, have garbage removed, and would like their community looking decent, etc.
But again, this is the local government where citizens can have direct input as to what would serve their best interest in their own community.
Fatboy Chris Christie doesn't dictate to the citizens in Cleveland, Ohio what days their garbage is to be picked up, or if they're going to provide recycling services.
Not everyone needs hernia surgery. Not everyone gives birth to a baby. Not everyone has diabetes. Not everyone is an amputee.
Healthcare is not a one size fits all industry. Never has been and never will be. The human body is too unpredictable and everyone is made up genetically different.

No taxation without representation......as the old saying goes.
This is one of the many reasons the average citizen here in the US doesn't want universal healthcare.
My tax money, because that's where funding comes from for "free healthcare for all", being tax exorbitantly more, and your tax money would be going to things that some people disagree with fundamentally.
Abortions, sex changes, vaccinations, breast enhancement surgery, birth control, penile implants, hair plugs, micro-chipping your child, etc.
I'm a "do your own thing as long as it doesn't harm me" type guy. I believe in equal rights for all humans regardless. Everyone should be able to live their lives how they see fit, so long as it doesn't bring harm nor visit any burden to those around them.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

I can see the view that healthcare should be treated like a utility. I don't think that view assumes that utilities are a right. You don't pay your electric bill and your power is shut off. Doctors, treatments, and drugs could be viewed as the commodities of the healthcare utility just like oil and coal are the commodities of electric utilities.

The issue is that healthcare is too complex and intrusive to be delivered by a government utility. Plus it would be the mother of all corruption incubators.

 

[Stewey]

So after the thousand disrespectful things said by Mr. President aka the ***** grabber. People are supposed to be respectful of him because of the office. Haha that is rich. No he cheapens the office and has made a farce of democracy. What a joke.

Oh geez. Another one of these liberals all of a sudden taking the moral high ground when it becomes convenient for them.

Bill Clinton sexually assaults a dozen or so women and none of you libtards bat an eye.....

.....Trump talks about grabbing ***** and everyone loses their minds.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Why don't you and the rest of the liberals in the country give away 75% of your checks to help the other man. I will keep mine and take care of my own.

Flu's from Canuckistan and not a Liberal. I stand with Flu!

 

[21STEELERS21]

Healthcare went from a 1K per year per capita cost in the 70's to a 9K per year per capita cost today.
A 900% inflation rate. Was that natural or greed induced. The wealthy are the only ones who can afford
to send their kids to medical school, so our healthcare system has become a way for the wealthy to always
stay wealthy and the rest of us pay for that to be so.

 

[IndySteel]

Was that natural or greed induced.

At some point you are going to need to learn about punctuation if you ever want to get your gd books published.

 

[SteelChip]

So after the thousand disrespectful things said by Mr. President aka the ***** grabber. People are supposed to be respectful of him because of the office. Haha that is rich. No he cheapens the office and has made a farce of democracy. What a joke.

I guess even them "North of the Border Libs" have a reality deficiency. When Trump makes bombastic statements like that, he's called a liar. Are you a liar too Sask, or do you admit to sometimes being a little 'over imaginative' ?

Libs down here often fall into that category too.

As usual, the candor is amusing. More popcorn is on the way..I hope.

 

[Troglodyte]

Healthcare is not a right it is a commodity.

Gas, water, electric are not commodities, they are utilities.

Utilities are required virtually every day by virtually every citizen, healthcare is not.

On the subject of healthcare and economics, this guy knows his ****.

Not really.

We don't have a right to health INSURANCE, but healthcare providers do need treat people needing emergency medical treatment. They don't get to say "**** you, I have no reason to believe you will be able to pay for this, get out of my ER!"

 

[Steeltime]

Not really.

We don't have a right to health INSURANCE, but healthcare providers do need treat people needing emergency medical treatment. They don't get to say "**** you, I have no reason to believe you will be able to pay for this, get out of my ER!"

That is indeed the policy the United States employs, but of course the fact is that the medical providers are not simply giving away their goods and services - they simply pass the cost on to the paying customers.

People flip out regarding $8 for an aspirin, and ignore the fact that the aspirin, etc. have to pay for that patient's room and care, and a lot of other extremely expensive care for patients who are critical and show up at the ER without insurance, and malpractice insurance, and on and on.

 

[DBS1970]

That is indeed the policy the United States employs, but of course the fact is that the medical providers are not simply giving away their goods and services - they simply pass the cost on to the paying customers.

People flip out regarding $8 for an aspirin, and ignore the fact that the aspirin, etc. have to pay for that patient's room and care, and a lot of other extremely expensive care for patients who are critical and show up at the ER without insurance, and malpractice insurance, and on and on.

Yep that's the elephant in the room. As we have encouraged sloth and failure more people have opted to go the route of the ER and dipping out on the bill.

 

[SteelerSask2]

I guess even them "North of the Border Libs" have a reality deficiency. When Trump makes bombastic statements like that, he's called a liar. Are you a liar too Sask, or do you admit to sometimes being a little 'over imaginative' ?

Libs down here often fall into that category too.

As usual, the candor is amusing. More popcorn is on the way..I hope.

Has to be my favorite saying of all. Vince makes rude, disrespectful and outrageous (often completely false) statements every week. And it's written off as bombastic. No he's an *******.

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Healthcare went from a 1K per year per capita cost in the 70's to a 9K per year per capita cost today.
A 900% inflation rate. Was that natural or greed induced. The wealthy are the only ones who can afford
to send their kids to medical school, so our healthcare system has become a way for the wealthy to always
stay wealthy and the rest of us pay for that to be so.

I'm curious, when the Great Redeemer, the Black Jesus, the FBP, the One and Only Political Redeemer, B. Hussein Obama forced Obamacare through without a vote and put this **** all over Americans, how did his plan fix that greed? How did ObamaScare remove the greedy insurance companies from the equation? How did this plan lower premiums for Americans and lower healthcare costs?

I know you're busy writing away at your grand novella, but when you have a moment we'd enjoy a reply.

 

[fedderone]

Healthcare went from a 1K per year per capita cost in the 70's to a 9K per year per capita cost today.
A 900% inflation rate. Was that natural or greed induced. The wealthy are the only ones who can afford
to send their kids to medical school, so our healthcare system has become a way for the wealthy to always
stay wealthy and the rest of us pay for that to be so.

Soooooooooo, why would Obama and the democrats in 2009 use Insurance Companies to help pen the ACA?
Seems counter-intuitive to the ultimate goal of healthcare for all and lower costs to all.
They're the greedy corporate pigs that drive up healthcare costs, correct?
"You can keep your same plan. You can keep your same doctors. Your premiums will all significantly decrease. Your benefits will be much better. It will provide coverage to the 56 million uninsured citizens."
ALL lies. All of those things have been, and continue to be, untrue.
And the worst lie of all, "this is not a new tax"......EXACTLY the premise that the president's supporters/lawyers used in the Supreme Court case.

As I've intimated before. I'm no proponent of universal healthcare.
But the ACA is a bastardized hybrid of universal healthcare and free market healthcare.
It was designed and written to fail so they could implement universal healthcare as an "emergency" measure to save everyone.
They lied to the American people, "because the American people are too stupid to understand the bill" ( Jonathan Gruber ) and we were too stupid to read the bill before it was passed because, "we have to pass the bill first before we can read it and understand it" ( Nancy Pelosi ).

I hate most politicians, regardless of the letters behind their names.
But this was a gigantic con job by the congress people that enjoyed huge bribes, to take back to their constituents, if they voted for it.

 

[Troglodyte]

How did ObamaScare remove the greedy insurance companies from the equation? How did this plan lower premiums for Americans and lower healthcare costs?.

Utilization review, risk sharing, preventative medicine. Incentivizing and reimbursing providers to perform annual wellness visits and verify unconfirmed diagnosis for their Medicare patients. Primary care is changing to an outcomes based reimbursement model - cost and quality vs services provided.

 

[SteelChip]

Has to be my favorite saying of all. Vince makes rude, disrespectful and outrageous (often completely false) statements every week. And it's written off as bombastic. No he's an *******.

Yeah that's what I hear, thousands of them huh ?.

This Vince guy sure does make a lotta them there statements, musta been even in his sleep I'm assumin'.

...

This just in from the Tea Party....

We knew that this anti-Trump "Resistance" would make a move and try to start electing their far-out, left-wing candidates, but we didn't think they'd move so quickly. The Democrats sense that we're distracted by all the work and progress that President Trump is making in D.C., but we see what they are up to and we must respond today.

Here's what we know: (1) President Trump picked Congressman Tom Price to head up HHS, which has created a Special Election to replace him; (2) Jon Ossoff, an ambitious left-wing staffer, sees an opportunity to advance his career, so he has jumped into a crowded field as the "anti-Trump" candidate; (3) George Soros-aligned groups, like the Daily Kos, are in, hook, line and sinker, and have already helped him raise over $1 million!; (4) the Democratic Party saw this and knew exactly what's expected of them, so they've sent nine staffers down to help Ossoff's campaign.

 

[Confluence]

Healthcare is not a right it is a commodity.

Gas, water, electric are not commodities, they are utilities.

Utilities are required virtually every day by virtually every citizen, healthcare is not.

On the subject of healthcare and economics, this guy knows his ****.

Stewey,

This is incorrect. Gas, both natural and the stuff you put in yer car are bulk commodities traded on the CME, NYMEX and CBOT. So is electricity. Water is "regulated", but not traded (except for the bottled stuff, and the negotiations on water rights, etc.) on an exchange. Also traded as commodities are corn, coffee, copper, Chinese currency, US Dollars, US real estate, OJ, money, bonds etc.

You are confusing the supply of a commodity like electricity with the delivery of same through the commonly used distribution system throughout most of the world: local/national utilities, sometimes governmental, sometimes privately owned but regulated by government.

Like I said above, it is about the distribution system to deliver a commodity like healthcare. It seems silly not find the most efficient delivery system for such things. The rest is emotion.

 

[Confluence]

From all the things you listed above, the only one of them that the FEDERAL government runs is the FDA ( food and drug admin ). The rest are local governments, handled locally.
The reason is what could we possibly expect Chuck Schumer to know about the plight of those in Bozeman Montana? Or what Rob Portman knows about the needs of those in Biloxi Mississippi?
Everyone needs to drink water, have garbage removed, and would like their community looking decent, etc.
But again, this is the local government where citizens can have direct input as to what would serve their best interest in their own community.
Fatboy Chris Christie doesn't dictate to the citizens in Cleveland, Ohio what days their garbage is to be picked up, or if they're going to provide recycling services.
Not everyone needs hernia surgery. Not everyone gives birth to a baby. Not everyone has diabetes. Not everyone is an amputee.
Healthcare is not a one size fits all industry. Never has been and never will be. The human body is too unpredictable and everyone is made up genetically different.

No taxation without representation......as the old saying goes.
This is one of the many reasons the average citizen here in the US doesn't want universal healthcare.
My tax money, because that's where funding comes from for "free healthcare for all", being tax exorbitantly more, and your tax money would be going to things that some people disagree with fundamentally.
Abortions, sex changes, vaccinations, breast enhancement surgery, birth control, penile implants, hair plugs, micro-chipping your child, etc.
I'm a "do your own thing as long as it doesn't harm me" type guy. I believe in equal rights for all humans regardless. Everyone should be able to live their lives how they see fit, so long as it doesn't bring harm nor visit any burden to those around them.

What are you going on about?? I never said anything about a federal anything. LESS GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS BETTER.

I talked about society, delivery systems, efficiency and you brought up the federal government and taxes. TAXES, TAX COLLECTORS (including police) AND THOSE THAT IMPOSE THEM ARE WRONG.

I never suggested that healthcare was the same for all, just like TV use isnt' the same for all. You can choose to use, or not, pay lots or little or nothing for extras, but the signal spectrum is still regulated, and paid for, and hidden in your bill.

Abortions, sexchanges.....WTF? Maybe you don't understand how conservative I am. lol.

Just make the system more efficient by getting rid of the hangers on, including lawyers, lobbyists, politicians and corporate privateers.

 

[Confluence]

I guess even them "North of the Border Libs" have a reality deficiency. When Trump makes bombastic statements like that, he's called a liar. Are you a liar too Sask, or do you admit to sometimes being a little 'over imaginative' ? (Drunk should be an option here Chip!)

Libs down here often fall into that category too.

As usual, the candor is amusing. More popcorn is on the way..I hope.

Where the hell do you think all yer Vietnam Draft Dodgers went? Mexico? Nope Europe? No way.

They have infested our education and political system at every level. Common Core? That **** has been in Canada for much longer -- where'dya think them Libtards got it from??

 

[Confluence]

Has to be my favorite saying of all. Vince makes rude, disrespectful and outrageous (often completely false) statements every week. And it's written off as bombastic. No he's an *******.

Was this meant for the mirror?

 

[Tim Steelersfan]

Utilization review, risk sharing, preventative medicine. Incentivizing and reimbursing providers to perform annual wellness visits and verify unconfirmed diagnosis for their Medicare patients. Primary care is changing to an outcomes based reimbursement model - cost and quality vs services provided.

That's all well and good conjecture. But these things you list did nothing to remove insurance companies from the equation, nor did any of these noble reasons you list lower premiums and healthcare costs - per my point you quoted.

 

[Troglodyte]

That's all well and good conjecture. But these things you list did nothing to remove insurance companies from the equation, nor did any of these noble reasons you list lower premiums and healthcare costs - per my point you quoted.]

You want to remove insurance companies? Subsidizing the uninsured is what didn't lower premiums. Please explain how preventing over-utilization and hospitalization wouldn't reduce costs.