Being a fan of the developing Chaos...

[Tim Steelersfan]

You want to remove insurance companies? Subsidizing the uninsured is what didn't lower premiums. Please explain how preventing over-utilization and hospitalization wouldn't reduce costs.

I asked three questions of 21.

-- "how did his plan [Obama's) fix that greed [the greed of the insurance companies]? 21 is trying to tell us the greed of the insurance companies it the problem with healthcare and ObamaCare can't be blamed for any of the problems - that's where he was going.
-- How did ObamaScare remove the greedy insurance companies from the equation?
-- How did this plan [ObamaCare] lower premiums for Americans and lower healthcare costs?

Though my questions were to 21 and his unreasonable points, you responded to me with a load of gibberish...errr, I mean with your points about all the wonderful things ObamaScare brought to us. None of which answered one of my questions. So back to them.

Please explain, to my original pointed questions directed at 21, how anything you listed in your rebuttal to me lowered costs or curtailed the insurance company greed that 21 was prattling on about?

Premiums have skyrocketed and insurance companies are still raping Americans over health insurance.

Ready, set, go.

 

[Stewey]

Stewey,

This is incorrect. Gas, both natural and the stuff you put in yer car are bulk commodities traded on the CME, NYMEX and CBOT. So is electricity. Water is "regulated", but not traded (except for the bottled stuff, and the negotiations on water rights, etc.) on an exchange. Also traded as commodities are corn, coffee, copper, Chinese currency, US Dollars, US real estate, OJ, money, bonds etc.

You are confusing the supply of a commodity like electricity with the delivery of same through the commonly used distribution system throughout most of the world: local/national utilities, sometimes governmental, sometimes privately owned but regulated by government.

Like I said above, it is about the distribution system to deliver a commodity like healthcare. It seems silly not find the most efficient delivery system for such things. The rest is emotion.

I based that post on some of the stuff I have read...that a utility and a commodity are separate things.

http://insights.wired.com/profiles/...d-the-evolution-of-iaas-markets#axzz4aDjYIgDq
Utilities and commodities are not interchangeable terms. I believe that both are inevitable in computing, but that they will happen at different rates, and as a result of different market actions and drivers.

http://www.wikidiff.com/utility/commodity
Utility-(business|finance) A service provider, such as an electric company or water company; or , the securities of such a provider.
Commodity-In human geography "commodities'" usually refers to goods and services which are bought and sold. The simplest ' commodities are those produced by the production system just before they are sold.

But as you pointed out, they are clearly a commodity just by the simple fact that they are traded , as explained in this link.
http://economics.about.com/od/commodityprices/f/commodity.htm


After all that, what does all this have to do with healthcare again? I forgot.LOL

 

[fedderone]

What are you going on about?? I never said anything about a federal anything. LESS GOVERNMENT IS ALWAYS BETTER.

I talked about society, delivery systems, efficiency and you brought up the federal government and taxes. TAXES, TAX COLLECTORS (including police) AND THOSE THAT IMPOSE THEM ARE WRONG.

I never suggested that healthcare was the same for all, just like TV use isnt' the same for all. You can choose to use, or not, pay lots or little or nothing for extras, but the signal spectrum is still regulated, and paid for, and hidden in your bill.

Abortions, sexchanges.....WTF? Maybe you don't understand how conservative I am. lol.

Just make the system more efficient by getting rid of the hangers on, including lawyers, lobbyists, politicians and corporate privateers.

I wasn't trying to say YOU support these things.
My point was the fundamental problem with people's taxes ( which pay for universal health care ) going towards procedures they don't agree with. Generalities. Person A doesn't support the procedure Person B is having done.

I agree 100% that bureaucrats mess everything up. It's what I'm a HUGE proponent of a flat tax for both individuals and businesses.
You make X, government gets Y%. You make $10,000,000.00/year, you pay more in taxes than the guy that makes $50,000.00/year. But you're both clipped at the same exact percentage so it's fair.
This would remove lobbyists from the game. No more arguing for loopholes and moving of money from point A to point B to avoid taxes.
Tax form would simply be your employer giving you a one page statement that show proof you had your taxes taken out. You send in that one page form. No refunds. No credits. No need to have over 100,000 people working for the IRS trying to figure out if someone scammed them or didn't pay their fair share.
Too much red tape in government. A LOT of our money is wasted.

Your statement of :

From my perspective, society can be decent, provide basic health care (very sick people are always going to die, and regardless of treatment, some of their loved ones will be upset) simply by streamlining distribution and dumping lobbyists.

is what lead my down my chosen argument path.
Providing basic healthcare = universal healthcare......at least that's how I read it. Sorry if I misunderstood.
Medicare is a disaster ( NOT trying to do a Trump there ) while Medicaid is slightly better because it's run at the state level.

My BIGGEST gripe is that politicians see us as toddlers who don't know right from wrong and try and force us to do what they feel is right.
And the truly sad thing is we typically go along with their ridiculousness because we've become lazy.

 

[fedderone]

And here we go........
Second verse, same as the first.
Top GOP officials are keeping the contents of their repeal and replace bill under lock and key.
Even Rand Paul is unable to view it, and being told they'll only get to see it when it's time to vote.
This seems oddly familiar to 2009 with the roles reversed.
&^$#)*(%$()(*_)%*&(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[SteelChip]

And here we go........
Second verse, same as the first.
Top GOP officials are keeping the contents of their repeal and replace bill under lock and key.
Even Rand Paul is unable to view it, and being told they'll only get to see it when it's time to vote.
This seems oddly familiar to 2009 with the roles reversed.
&^$#)*(%$()(*_)%*&(!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I think that it sucks too but another side of me thinks that they almost have to do something like this in today's political climate. If they were to unveil too much information too far in advance, it would give the Obama camp ample time to nitpick the bill and create imaginary victims. Exact same reason Nasty Nancy said that you had to pass the bill to know what's in it..

Damned if you do and more damned if you don't...lose-lose.

Remember this cute little bit of vitriol ?

 

[wig]

Stewey, I would argue that you do NOT have a right to water or electricity or gas. Certainly no more right than you have to reasonable healthcare.

And when one factors in the cost of medical treatment today - no. Nobody can "afford" healthcare. You can't "afford" to get cancer, or to have an aneurysm. You can't "afford" to require a month long hospital stay. You can't "afford" home health care for any period of time.

And why can't you "afford" any of this? Because the insurance industry along with the medical industry have created such a **** pile of an inflated supply and demand donkey-**** that nobody can "afford" ****.

I recommend ANYONE who thinks they are feeling high and mighty does a little social experiment. Don't cancel your personal insurance that you get through your job or whatever. Just go get a second policy. One that you can afford through your own means for yourself and your family outside of a company policy. Just a private plan that you can afford.

Then go and ask to spend a week a the hospital. See what that would come to on your new insurance. See how your deductible would hold up. See how you'd do paying the rest.

Then after you've worked that out. Have some extra fun, draw up some slips of paper with things like "broken arm". "heart attack", "lung cancer", "migraine", "pink eye" and put the slips of paper into a bowl. Draw two for a couple of your family members. See what THAT would cost with your new plan. If your deductible is paid, you may be good. If not... well see where you're at. Can you "afford it"?

The problem with our healthcare system isn't just the lack of competition, or the need for a national system. It's the need to utterly destroy the insurance industry and their meddling and price gouging. The goal of the insurance industry is to continually profit on EACH INDIVIDUAL account, not overall. So they aren't just hoping that over the entire COMPANY they'll do ok. They are planning to make money on YOU individually. And they'll **** you if they have to in order to ensure that happens.

Cause insurance companies are ******* evil.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

Healthcare is overly expensive because it is not an open market, like just about every ******* market in this country. I disagree completely that the lack of competition is not the root cause. It is absolutely the root cause. We need the insurance industry, but they need to find out how to be profitable in an open market. They have never had to.

 

[MT~Forged]

We need to create a SINGLE group for all Americans.
Create 3 plans:
#1 Major Medical Only policy. $5000 deductible, no lifetime limit, no per-existing exclusions. This will prevent Bankruptcy for medical expenses.
#2 Basic Healthcare policy, reasonable deductible, co-pays, prescription discount. includes option #1
#3 Gold healthcare plan, All the bells & whistles.

These plans are put out for bid every 3-5 years. Insurance companies are also free to offer anything they can get people to pay for.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

We need to create a SINGLE group for all Americans.
Create 3 plans:
#1 Major Medical Only policy. $5000 deductible, no lifetime limit, no per-existing exclusions. This will prevent Bankruptcy for medical expenses.
#2 Basic Healthcare policy, reasonable deductible, co-pays, prescription discount. includes option #1
#3 Gold healthcare plan, All the bells & whistles.

These plans are put out for bid every 3-5 years. Insurance companies are also free to offer anything they can get people to pay for.

Yeah, the whole "creating a single group" thing is exactly what is wrong with a government approach. Sure, once a perfect imaginary consumer group is created by the government, then I guess the government sends it out to bid to government acceptable bidders.

Get it? That **** does not work.

 

[oneforthebus]

Healthcare is overly expensive because it is not an open market, like just about every ******* market in this country. I disagree completely that the lack of competition is not the root cause. It is absolutely the root cause. We need the insurance industry, but they need to find out how to be profitable in an open market. They have never had to.

The insurance industry is not the cause.

Look at it this way...they take in premiums. They pay out claims. They have to take in more premiums then the claims they pay out or they cannot stay in business. In a way, the insurance companies are the only thing that makes health care more affordable. Because they have large groups of patients, and they are able to say "If you want these customers, you can't charge more than this". And so they limit what providers can charge, which is good.

What is bad? There is no comparison shopping. If you are told, get an MRI,you go to the place in your network and you get the MRI and you don't care what it costs because you're not paying it. Now, what if instead of paying massive premiums and getting all your care for "free", you had to pay 25% of the cost of every single MRI, well exam, dental cleaning etc. out of pocket, from a tax free fund that you manage? That you get to keep, if you don't spend it, and save it for when you need it?

You will damn well make sure to pick the cheapest place for your MRI. You will call around and see if Walmart or Walgreens or CVS will give you the best price on your drugs. Providers will compete for your business. Service will improve and prices will drop.

If you are healthy and feeling fine maybe you get a well exam every 3 years instead of every year. No biggie, There is no evidence that this affects your long term outcomes despite what all the chicken littles say. And healthcare is cheaper for all of us. We can all afford it when we need it.

Yeah, it's a big pain in the *** and people don't like it, but guess what? Costs drop. Premiums drop. Providers have to be more efficient and effective and make you want to choose them.

 

[CharlesDavenport]

The insurance industry is not the cause.

Look at it this way...they take in premiums. They pay out claims. They have to take in more premiums then the claims they pay out or they cannot stay in business. In a way, the insurance companies are the only thing that makes health care more affordable. Because they have large groups of patients, and they are able to say "If you want these customers, you can't charge more than this". And so they limit what providers can charge, which is good.

What is bad? There is no comparison shopping. If you are told, get an MRI,you go to the place in your network and you get the MRI and you don't care what it costs because you're not paying it. Now, what if instead of paying massive premiums and getting all your care for "free", you had to pay 25% of the cost of every single MRI, well exam, dental cleaning etc. out of pocket, from a tax free fund that you manage? That you get to keep, if you don't spend it, and save it for when you need it?

You will damn well make sure to pick the cheapest place for your MRI. You will call around and see if Walmart or Walgreens or CVS will give you the best price on your drugs. Providers will compete for your business. Service will improve and prices will drop.

If you are healthy and feeling fine maybe you get a well exam every 3 years instead of every year. No biggie, There is no evidence that this affects your long term outcomes despite what all the chicken littles say. And healthcare is cheaper for all of us. We can all afford it when we need it.

Yeah, it's a big pain in the *** and people don't like it, but guess what? Costs drop. Premiums drop. Providers have to be more efficient and effective and make you want to choose them.

Open it up to the market. Let Walmart offer MRI tests and Costco offer lab services and let the insurance companies have national pools.

 

[MT~Forged]

Maybe I didn't word it right. Right now we have basically one choice here in MT. Why the hell can I not buy health insurance like I buy my car insurance.

Since it is mandatory, how about we regulate it through the PSC

 

[Confluence]

Stewey, I would argue that you do NOT have a right to water or electricity or gas. Certainly no more right than you have to reasonable healthcare.

And when one factors in the cost of medical treatment today - no. Nobody can "afford" healthcare. You can't "afford" to get cancer, or to have an aneurysm. You can't "afford" to require a month long hospital stay. You can't "afford" home health care for any period of time.

And why can't you "afford" any of this? Because the insurance industry along with the medical industry have created such a **** pile of an inflated supply and demand donkey-**** that nobody can "afford" ****.

I recommend ANYONE who thinks they are feeling high and mighty does a little social experiment. Don't cancel your personal insurance that you get through your job or whatever. Just go get a second policy. One that you can afford through your own means for yourself and your family outside of a company policy. Just a private plan that you can afford.

Then go and ask to spend a week a the hospital. See what that would come to on your new insurance. See how your deductible would hold up. See how you'd do paying the rest.

Then after you've worked that out. Have some extra fun, draw up some slips of paper with things like "broken arm". "heart attack", "lung cancer", "migraine", "pink eye" and put the slips of paper into a bowl. Draw two for a couple of your family members. See what THAT would cost with your new plan. If your deductible is paid, you may be good. If not... well see where you're at. Can you "afford it"?

The problem with our healthcare system isn't just the lack of competition, or the need for a national system. It's the need to utterly destroy the insurance industry and their meddling and price gouging. The goal of the insurance industry is to continually profit on EACH INDIVIDUAL account, not overall. So they aren't just hoping that over the entire COMPANY they'll do ok. They are planning to make money on YOU individually. And they'll **** you if they have to in order to ensure that happens.

Cause insurance companies are ******* evil.

You may be correct about not having a right to things like water, electricity and healthcare, but almost every industrialized nation or city-state is organized like the average person does have these rights.

It is all about organizing complex systems into an efficient delivery system. You don't have multiple water/sewer lines for simple efficiency reasons.


Sent from my iPhone using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[Spike]

There will more of everything for everyone if you keep the illegals out


Majority of Quebecers opposed to more immigration: poll

A majority of Quebecers oppose the idea of welcoming more immigrants to Canada, a new survey suggests.

A poll conducted by SOM for Cogeco Nouvelles suggests that 55 per of respondents think Canada shouldn’t accept more immigrants in the wake of anti-immigration measures announced by U.S. President Donald Trump, while 36 per cent are in favour of welcoming more immigrants and nine per cent are undecided.

The survey also found that 75 per cent of the 1,010 respondents polled online are in favour of tightening surveillance on Canada’s borders to prevent the arrival of illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, the survey also suggests that only 36 per cent of respondents favour a decision by city council to designate Montreal a “sanctuary city” for illegal immigrants while 41 per cent oppose the idea.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/majority-of-quebecers-opposed-to-more-immigration-poll

 

[hamster]

There will more of everything for everyone if you keep the illegals out


Majority of Quebecers opposed to more immigration: poll

A majority of Quebecers oppose the idea of welcoming more immigrants to Canada, a new survey suggests.

A poll conducted by SOM for Cogeco Nouvelles suggests that 55 per of respondents think Canada shouldn’t accept more immigrants in the wake of anti-immigration measures announced by U.S. President Donald Trump, while 36 per cent are in favour of welcoming more immigrants and nine per cent are undecided.

The survey also found that 75 per cent of the 1,010 respondents polled online are in favour of tightening surveillance on Canada’s borders to prevent the arrival of illegal immigrants.

Meanwhile, the survey also suggests that only 36 per cent of respondents favour a decision by city council to designate Montreal a “sanctuary city” for illegal immigrants while 41 per cent oppose the idea.

http://montrealgazette.com/news/local-news/majority-of-quebecers-opposed-to-more-immigration-poll

This is racist and Islamophobic.And will probably be a hate crime in Canada, at some point.

 

[Confluence]

This is racist and Islamophobic.And will probably be a hate crime in Canada, at some point.

Most of the Québécois are already racist: they don't want the English, or anything that lessens their French-ness.


Sent from my iPhone using Steeler Nation mobile app

 

[Ron Burgundy]

What is bad? There is no comparison shopping. If you are told, get an MRI,you go to the place in your network and you get the MRI and you don't care what it costs because you're not paying it. Now, what if instead of paying massive premiums and getting all your care for "free", you had to pay 25% of the cost of every single MRI, well exam, dental cleaning etc. out of pocket, from a tax free fund that you manage? That you get to keep, if you don't spend it, and save it for when you need it?

You will damn well make sure to pick the cheapest place for your MRI. You will call around and see if Walmart or Walgreens or CVS will give you the best price on your drugs. Providers will compete for your business. Service will improve and prices will drop.

Several years ago when the wife and I were both self-employed there were times when we couldn't afford health insurance. During one of those times I had to get a CT scan. Called around for prices since I was paying out of my own pocket. Local hospital was $1200. Their outpatient imaging clinic elsewhere was $800. I called an independent outpatient imaging clinic near my office in New Castle that was $230.

 

[hamster]

Hey Wig! More Chaos!

The Obama wiretapping scandal !!!!!!

 

[Troglodyte]

Several years ago when the wife and I were both self-employed there were times when we couldn't afford health insurance. During one of those times I had to get a CT scan. Called around for prices since I was paying out of my own pocket. Local hospital was $1200. Their outpatient imaging clinic elsewhere was $800. I called an independent outpatient imaging clinic near my office in New Castle that was $230.

A lot of people don't know you can negotiate a price with healthcare providers. If they're smart, they'll accept the same payment they get from the commercial insurers. My guess is whoever answered the phone at the hospital and outpatient clinic hadn't been advised on how to handle that circumstance.

 

[Steeltime]

A lot of people don't know you can negotiate a price with healthcare providers.

Absolutely true. If a patient offers to pay cash, the price for the service goes down immensely.

Medical providers nowadays have more people employed to handle insurance and payment paperwork than the number of nurses they have on staff.

 

[Ron Burgundy]

Absolutely true. If a patient offers to pay cash, the price for the service goes down immensely.

Medical providers nowadays have more people employed to handle insurance and payment paperwork than the number of nurses they have on staff.

One thing the GOP should do in their reforms is make everyone, every doctor, hospital, and insurance company, use the same damn forms.

 

[Spike]

More Chaos!

Loretta Lynch Incites Violence - Calls For More Marching, Blood & Death

Former Attorney General Loretta Lynch took to a short video that appears to encourage violence as she recalled some people who have protested over alleged "rights" have not only marched, but bled and died in the process. She said, "We have done this before. We can do this again."

The short, less-than-a-minute video appeared on Facebook on the Senate Democrats page as "words of inspiration." They are really pushing to incite the people to violence, something that is against the law in this country, but we already know that Ms. Lynch is a criminal herself, especially concerning asset forfeiture, in clear violation of the Fifth Amendment.

http://thewashingtonstandard.com/ob...violence-indicates-need-marching-blood-death/


Lock her up!

 

[ark steel]

Governments and Insurance providers subsidize healthcare. The more it is subsidized, the higher the price goes. natural economics.

Higher education and healthcare have been more and more subsidized by the government for years and years and the main two items that have outpaced inflation over that time. not a coincidence.

 

[wig]

I confess, I am NOT an economist.

But I DO love watching the politicians fall apart. I can only hope Congress and Senate get locked into a room together and are forced to go full on "Donner Party".

 

[BAS]

I confess, I am NOT an economist.

But I DO love watching the politicians fall apart. I can only hope Congress and Senate get locked into a room together and are forced to go full on "Donner Party".

How about "The Congress Experiment"?