Bernie Sanders - Make America Socialist!

[Rod Farva]

Tibs... Very well spoken. But you forgot to list one of the rights favorite big government programs of all... bankruptcy. That's the one where guys like Trump get to keep their millions and stick all of the people they owe when one of their businesses goes belly up. Yeah you will never hear one of them ***** about the government sticking it's nose where it don't belong.. i.e. the free market... when it comes to bankruptcy laws.

Not going to address Tibs's post as it would take too long to correct 73 things. I for one do not believe in bankruptcy and believe it should be incredibly difficult to do. I struggled with huge debt for many years and the thought of declaring bankruptcy never entered my mind. It's an honor thing.

The fact that a program is funded by tax dollars does not make it socialist, Tibs. Socialism is defined as "a political and economic theory of social organization that advocates that the means of production, distribution, and exchange should be owned or regulated by the community as a whole."

http://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/socialism

Taking private income and property and using those resources for police power by the government is the standard for capitalism.

bmti

So Bernie didn't earn a paycheck until he was 40...

*THUD* - someone pick me up up off the floor, I just fell over in shock...

http://spectator.org/blog/65498/bernie-sanders-didnt-make-paycheck-until-he-turned-40

I knew a lot of people like this in the late 60's early 70's. I thought most of them grew up. I see now far too many didn't.

 

[SteelChip]

Tibs, you list numerous things that socialism has brought us and oddly enough, there are major problems with many if not most of the things listed.

I was going to give examples, but didn't know where to begin. Everything from a crumbling infrastructure (you must not be from Pittsburgh) to corruption (police chiefs with quarter million dollar salaries, bus drivers making $80k) to compete ineptness of departments.

As long as that list was, it would be twenty times that long if the real story was included. It's like saying the 40 hour work week was the result of unions. Nice thought but also not true.

20. Public Schools - Can't afford to send your children to an expensive private school? Thanks to socialism and government, you child can still get an education. Public education has been under attack for decades in this country by the radical right because public schools don't teach Christianity to your children and it enables people like Barack Obama to work hard, gain scholarships, and eventually become President of the United States.

Another " nice thought " that at one time could have been a convincing argument but has steadily been eroded by overreaching unions and the PC dominance

and Obama can't credit public schooling for his elected offices. Daley machine graft, corruption, obfuscation maybe-----total removal of all shady background, maybe-----blatant racist attacks, maybe.

Public schools...nope sorry, I'm not sure he ever attended any and definitely not on the homeland here. He did get free college by lying to admissions, of that I'm sure but that don't count as public schools.

I guess Thomas Sowell had the most direct answer to all that commie propaganda.....

 

[Tibs]

As far as characterizing Bernie Sanders' economic plan as "handing out free stuff," here is a summary of why most of you completely misunderstand Bernie. I know you don't give a ****, cause he's the devil incarnate, but the facts speak for themselves.

It’s Not ‘Free Stuff’ — It’s Using Taxes to Fund What We Actually Need
http://usuncut.com/politics/its-not-free-stuff-its-using-taxes-to-fund-what-we-actually-need/

The corporate media’s pundits and the corporate-owned political class love to dismiss Bernie Sanders’ platforms as “free stuff” that can’t realistically be provided at a nationwide scale, while completely ignoring the vast multitude of corporate entitlements that cost trillions to maintain. It’s time to set the record straight.

Bernie’s proposals of a free, universal Medicare For All program, free public education through the 4-year college level, 12 weeks of paid family leave, and providing millions of new jobs through investments in infrastructure are lofty goals, but the money to fund them is there if we were to simply cut the most wasteful and fraudulent corporate welfare packages that help a small wealthy few Americans while burdening the rest. Total annual cost of Bernie's proposals: $1.49 trillion

That may seem like a lot on its own, but the funding can easily be raised by cutting the “free stuff” we currently lavish on the wealthy. Multiple entitlement programs that exclusively benefit multinational corporations (like tax breaks for hedge fund managers, rich kids’ inheritances, and CEO bonuses, handouts to the oil and pharmaceutical industries, costly weapons programs and unnecessary wars, subsidies for “too-big-to-fail” banks, handouts to corporate behemoths cemented in last year’s omnibus spending bill, and tax loopholes for multinational corporations can easily be sacrificed to benefit the other 99.9 percent of Americans. Total annual savings from Bernie's cuts: $1.34 trillion

The point is this: Americans are supposed to pay taxes to have a functioning society that provides for the needs of all people, not just to grant lavish handouts to those with the means to pay political patronage. Bernie Sanders isn’t calling for the seizure of the means of production — he’s simply calling for smarter investment of our tax dollars.

 

[deljzc]

As far as characterizing Bernie Sanders' economic plan as "handing out free stuff," here is a summary of why most of you completely misunderstand Bernie. I know you don't give a ****, cause he's the devil incarnate, but the facts speak for themselves.

It’s Not ‘Free Stuff’ — It’s Using Taxes to Fund What We Actually Need
http://usuncut.com/politics/its-not-free-stuff-its-using-taxes-to-fund-what-we-actually-need/

The corporate media’s pundits and the corporate-owned political class love to dismiss Bernie Sanders’ platforms as “free stuff” that can’t realistically be provided at a nationwide scale, while completely ignoring the vast multitude of corporate entitlements that cost trillions to maintain. It’s time to set the record straight.

Bernie’s proposals of a free, universal Medicare For All program, free public education through the 4-year college level, 12 weeks of paid family leave, and providing millions of new jobs through investments in infrastructure are lofty goals, but the money to fund them is there if we were to simply cut the most wasteful and fraudulent corporate welfare packages that help a small wealthy few Americans while burdening the rest. Total annual cost of Bernie's proposals: $1.49 trillion

That may seem like a lot on its own, but the funding can easily be raised by cutting the “free stuff” we currently lavish on the wealthy. Multiple entitlement programs that exclusively benefit multinational corporations (like tax breaks for hedge fund managers, rich kids’ inheritances, and CEO bonuses, handouts to the oil and pharmaceutical industries, costly weapons programs and unnecessary wars, subsidies for “too-big-to-fail” banks, handouts to corporate behemoths cemented in last year’s omnibus spending bill, and tax loopholes for multinational corporations can easily be sacrificed to benefit the other 99.9 percent of Americans. Total annual savings from Bernie's cuts: $1.34 trillion

The point is this: Americans are supposed to pay taxes to have a functioning society that provides for the needs of all people, not just to grant lavish handouts to those with the means to pay political patronage. Bernie Sanders isn’t calling for the seizure of the means of production — he’s simply calling for smarter investment of our tax dollars.

"Smarter investment of our tax dollar" and big government don't go together and never will. Bernie Sander, even if he was Jesus Christ incarnate, couldn't fix waste and inefficiency in spending.

And the idea the rich will just "allow" Bernie to tax them for $1.34 trillion dollars and do nothing about it (like hire lawyers or find loopholes in Bernie's wordy legislation or take their money elsewhere) is pie-in-the-sky thinking and you know it Tibs.

His math doesn't add up and you know that too. Not. Even. Close.

 

[Tibs]

And the idea the rich will just "allow" Bernie to tax them for $1.34 trillion dollars and do nothing about it (like hire lawyers or find loopholes in Bernie's wordy legislation or take their money elsewhere) is pie-in-the-sky thinking and you know it Tibs.

Stop making this about me. Ask yourself where is Sanders' ever growing support coming from? Look at the numbers of people around the country that seem to be taking him seriously. You dismiss everything he's proposed as if throwing away a banana peel. You surely don't believe any of it, I don't doubt that for a minute. I'm not going to be the one that's going to convince you, or anyone else, who to vote for. For some bizarre reason you're enamored by Trump, you've made that clear, I get it. Good luck to you.

 

[deljzc]

His growing support is coming from uneducated liberal arts college kids and democrats that don't like Hillary Clinton.

Simple math. Clinton + Sanders = 100%.

Sanders going up just means Clinton is going down. Better of two evils I guess to tax-and-spend advocates like you.

If Sanders was really sweeping the nation by storm, how can he still be neck-and-neck with that crazy Donald Trump on a national level? To say Sanders popularity is any more or less legitimate than Trump's is foolhardy.

 

[Chicoman]

For all socialists and Sanders backers if you think socialism works you should take a close look at Venezuela. The country is on the brink of a revolution and this is a pure socialist country where the government supplies $2 housing, free education and healthcare. The problem with all this as everyone knows..."NOTHING IS FREE!" Somewhere, someone or some company will get paid and when the government doesn't have the money from taxing the citizens, they will just print the money to pay off the debt!

Printing money to pay off debt only creates more poverty as you are "robbing peter to pay paul" so to speak. You create more government debt, printing money also devalues a countries currency vs foreign purchases create a trade imbalance and the more you print the more likely you are to have inflation and when you are talking dollars in the trillions you would create a situation of Hyper Inflation which is what is going on in Venezuela right now as in the past year inflation has increased 287% and citizens are going hungry and can't even afford to purchase basic necessities and this is in an oil rich country when oil was $100+ a barrell. Now oil is sub $30 a barrell. You think their situation is going to get worse before it gets better? If it ever gets better?

That's socialism in a nutshell folks and why it doesn't work and why it will never work.

I love how Sanders said in a speech after Iowa how 8 years ago we bailed out Wall St and now they should bail us out aka The American People. Dumb Americans buy into this however we never bailed out Wall St. Wall St will never need to be bailed out. We bailed out publicly traded companies (General Motors, Goldman Sachs, Chrysler, AIG, and many others) on Wall St with American tax payer dollars. Don't be dumb the money was never paid back despite the ads saying otherwise. Wall Street makes money in a down market or an up market....they know what's going to happen and when. The only thing left in the market was the dumb money.

 

[Spike]

His growing support is coming from uneducated liberal arts college kids .

Ha, not even that. His offices in NV are full of 15 y/o highschool kids

they said half his staff can't even vote....preying on the young, like a cult

 

[DBS1970]

Stop making this about me. Ask yourself where is Sanders' ever growing support coming from? Look at the numbers of people around the country that seem to be taking him seriously. You dismiss everything he's proposed as if throwing away a banana peel. You surely don't believe any of it, I don't doubt that for a minute. I'm not going to be the one that's going to convince you, or anyone else, who to vote for. For some bizarre reason you're enamored by Trump, you've made that clear, I get it. Good luck to you.

He is getting more notice from the leach class because he is promising more OPM than Hillary. Funny thing about that is those folks are the DNC base not the greater mass of the population or even swing voters.

Those who promise to rob Peter to pay Paul can always count on the support of Paul.

 

[Rod Farva]

The point is this: Americans are supposed to pay taxes to have a functioning society that provides for the needs of all people, .

Yes. The some of "needs of all people" not "all the needs of all people."

Stop making this about me. Ask yourself where is Sanders' ever growing support coming from? .

From our criminally malfunctioning educational system?

For all socialists and Sanders backers if you think socialism works you should take a close look at Venezuela. The country is on the brink of a revolution and this is a pure socialist country where the government supplies $2 housing, free education and healthcare. The problem with all this as everyone knows..."NOTHING IS FREE!" Somewhere, someone or some company will get paid and when the government doesn't have the money from taxing the citizens, they will just print the money to pay off the debt!

Printing money to pay off debt only creates more poverty as you are "robbing peter to pay paul" so to speak. You create more government debt, printing money also devalues a countries currency vs foreign purchases create a trade imbalance and the more you print the more likely you are to have inflation and when you are talking dollars in the trillions you would create a situation of Hyper Inflation which is what is going on in Venezuela right now as in the past year inflation has increased 287% and citizens are going hungry and can't even afford to purchase basic necessities and this is in an oil rich country when oil was $100+ a barrell. Now oil is sub $30 a barrell. You think their situation is going to get worse before it gets better? If it ever gets better?

That's socialism in a nutshell folks and why it doesn't work and why it will never work.

I love how Sanders said in a speech after Iowa how 8 years ago we bailed out Wall St and now they should bail us out aka The American People. Dumb Americans buy into this however we never bailed out Wall St. Wall St will never need to be bailed out. We bailed out publicly traded companies (General Motors, Goldman Sachs, Chrysler, AIG, and many others) on Wall St with American tax payer dollars. Don't be dumb the money was never paid back despite the ads saying otherwise. Wall Street makes money in a down market or an up market....they know what's going to happen and when. The only thing left in the market was the dumb money.

What do you know? You're only living it.

 

[deljzc]

Here's a Bernie supporter in a nutshell:

 

[Tibs]

That's socialism in a nutshell folks and why it doesn't work and why it will never work.

You guys just don't get it, or don't want to get it. We already have socialism, socialism for corporations, big banks, the extremely wealthy. The system is skewered in that direction. For some reason, you all seem to be in love with that. Perhaps you all sit on the boards of major corporations and park your money in off-shore accounts. Must be it, since you're so against Bernie's proposals.

When you guys think of Bernie, you think of Trotsky, Marx, Lenin, Engels whatever scary boogieman you choose. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I know it's an easy narrative to demonize him. Bernie neither wants Communism, nor Socialism. He believes in democratic socialism, HUGE difference. When you think of Bernie, you should be thinking FDR and the New Deal, not this notion of free handouts and freeloaders. That is the correct political analysis. But again, that would bring your false pretenses down like a house of cards.

 

[ark steel]

You guys just don't get it, or don't want to get it. We already have socialism, socialism for corporations, big banks, the extremely wealthy. The system is skewered in that direction. For some reason, you all seem to be in love with that. Perhaps you all sit on the boards of major corporations and park your money in off-shore accounts. Must be it, since you're so against Bernie's proposals.

When you guys think of Bernie, you think of Trotsky, Marx, Lenin, Engels whatever scary boogieman you choose. Nothing could be further from the truth, but I know it's an easy narrative to demonize him. Bernie neither wants Communism, nor Socialism. He believes in democratic socialism, HUGE difference. When you think of Bernie, you should be thinking FDR and the New Deal, not this notion of free handouts and freeloaders. That is the correct political analysis. But again, that would bring your false pretenses down like a house of cards.

We don't want socialism for corporations either....or FDR or a "new and improved 'New Deal'".

What we really have is crony capitalism. The government (fed/state/local) have so much power and money, it is spent more to help donors and supporters when it would be better spent in the people's hands. Government doesn't spend money on economic principles they spend it on political, well I hate to even say "principles", purposes, I guess.

 

[DBS1970]

We don't want socialism for corporations either....or FDR or a "new and improved 'New Deal'".

What we really have is crony capitalism. The government (fed/state/local) have so much power and money, it is spent more to help donors and supporters when it would be better spent in the people's hands. Government doesn't spend money on economic principles they spend it on political, well I hate to even say "principles", purposes, I guess.

The other thing to remember is as Ron Paul pointed out in the 2012 election cycle we could tax all income above $1 million at 100% and we still couldn't pay for everything and begin to retire the debt. We certainly aren't going to be able to add another 2 trillion worth of spending and do that. We have to shrink the government cut everything by half at least in order to make a dent in our debt and improve things in this country. The stuff Bernie Sanders is telling is what PJ O'Rourk calls hay and a barn for human cattle.

 

[Tibs]

We have to shrink the government cut everything by half at least in order to make a dent in our debt and improve things in this country.

Bernie is calling for cutting the following:

Allowing Wall Street to trade tax-free: $352 billion
Extension of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy: $277.6 billion
Government contracts for the 200 wealthiest corporations: $176 billion
Lifting cap on Social Security taxing: $120 billion
Money lost to corporate tax havens: $100 billion
Wall Street welfare: $83 billion
Corporate welfare in omnibus spending bill: $65 billion
Surveillance-industrial complex: $52.6 billion
Tax breaks for wealthy investors: $51 billion (average over 5-year period)
War in Afghanistan: $35 billion
Oil company subsidies: $37.5 billion
Tax breaks for rich brats: $26.9 billion
New nuclear missiles: $18 billion
Ford-class aircraft carrier: $15 billion
Federal war on drugs: $15 billion
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: $10 billion
Foreign war slush fund: $8 billion
Walmart subsidies: $7.8 billion
Tax breaks for CEO bonuses: $7 billion
Littoral Combat Ship: $2 billion
Unusable planes for Afghan Air Force: $800 million
Keeping the Guantanamo Bay detention center open: $454 million

Total annual savings: $1.46 trillion

 

[deljzc]

No. He's advocating INCREASING tax revenue at a federal level.

I'm not for that one bit, no matter where it comes from or who is supposedly helps or how funny math makes it better for middle-class America. The federal government gets $3.25 TRILLION dollars a year. If you can't make our economy work on that, that's on them. Don't ask for more.

We need to be cutting spending, not adding federal spending.

And don't forget State and Local taxes are ANOTHER $3 trillion dollars.

Governments from federal to local tax Americans $6.25 to $6.3 trillion dollars. Make that work for damn sakes. Quit blaming ANYONE for that not being enough. Not the rich. Not the corporations. Not the loopholes (which you created). Not foreign governments.

Get your act together and make the money work.

 

[deljzc]

Bernie is calling for cutting the following:

Allowing Wall Street to trade tax-free: $352 billion
Extension of Bush tax cuts for the wealthy: $277.6 billion
Government contracts for the 200 wealthiest corporations: $176 billion - what is this? Spending or tax revenue?
Lifting cap on Social Security taxing: $120 billion
Money lost to corporate tax havens: $100 billion
Wall Street welfare: $83 billion
Corporate welfare in omnibus spending bill: $65 billion
Surveillance-industrial complex: $52.6 billion
Tax breaks for wealthy investors: $51 billion (average over 5-year period)
War in Afghanistan: $35 billion
Oil company subsidies: $37.5 billion
Tax breaks for rich brats: $26.9 billion
New nuclear missiles: $18 billion
Ford-class aircraft carrier: $15 billion
Federal war on drugs: $15 billion
F-35 Joint Strike Fighter: $10 billion
Foreign war slush fund: $8 billion
Walmart subsidies: $7.8 billion
Tax breaks for CEO bonuses: $7 billion
Littoral Combat Ship: $2 billion
Unusable planes for Afghan Air Force: $800 million
Keeping the Guantanamo Bay detention center open: $454 million

Total annual savings: $1.46 trillion

Tibs.... do you even think of what your saying?

The above list ADDS almost $1 trillion in taxes.

That is an absurd 30% increase is tax revenue for the U.S. federal government. Are you insane? That would be the greatest single tax increase (by far) in any major economy ever in the history of the world. You really think our economy or any economy for that matter can just increase tax revenue by 30% and nothing happens? Business just keeps humming along?

My god, think before you type. Do some math.

 

[madinsomniac]

I'm not as anti socialist as some here. I recognize that government cant be one form, its best served with a little bit of many. It cant be a true democracy, but the people have to have their say, probably moreso than we do now... it cant be a singular republic, there must be several layers of government to keep checks and balances in place.... there cant be a single leader but there has to be a single face to the government to represent it... It cant be based on religion but it must be based on moral values.... in that way of piecing together the best aspects several forms of government that our forefathers chose, yes there are aspects that socialism can be beneficial to society as a whole, but too much is a drain and its a slippery slope.

I'm fine with some of bernies proposals, but he goes overboard on several and is a idealist and not a realist and that probably means he will ultimately fail miserably if elected, especially fighting a republican congress... you will see 4 years of utter gridlock and nothing accomplished....

now the issue is the alternatives... Clinton is a closet socialist in ideals, but will be more moderate in comparison because she is only worried about her legacy. She probably isn't electable. She just doesn't appeal to voters in a way that they turn out in droves for her, as we have seen thus far in two primaries. Having said that the democrats who turn out ina national election will absolutely vote for her with no issues at all, whereas a segment of them will not vote for Bernie because of his label.

I fear Trump will be a totally unknown wildcard... he has been a democrat, an independent, and a republican and his viewpoints flip flop as it benefits him, so while he sounds conservative in some issues now, who knows what he will be in a year. I can see some benefits to trump, like there were for Ross Perot back in the day, but There are also a lot of risky scenarios where he utterly embarrasses us, sells us out, or just goes to an extreme proving a point that buries us in a terrible position.

Cruz and his VAT isn't far off of many of my own tax plans, (though his are not perfect and IMO still don't balance things correctly) but he is shady as heck and I doubt the establishment Republicans turn out for him.

I don't see any of the other Republicans having a real shot unless they make deals to shift voters soon in the primaries.


look, I want an outsider as bad as anyone, but I'm not certain the two frontrunners are the right choices long term, but the runners up aren't exactly president material either... its a weak election, my fear is that if it is Bernie vs Trump, trump cakewalks in on the fears of the many over unbridled socialism, that gives him a mandate and a majority in congress. maybe even several Supreme court appointees in his term.

 

[deljzc]

I don't even know what he means by cutting "government contracts for the 200 wealthiest corporations".

I think that's a politician's way of saying cut military spending.

 

[deljzc]

You want Bernie's plan in more plain English:

Tax Wall Street Trades - $350 billion
Tax Wealthy Individuals - $280 billion
More taxes on the Wealthy via Social Security taxes - $120 billion
More taxed on the Wealthy via an "Investment Tax" - $50 billion
Increase inheritance tax - $27 billion
Tax Rich on just their bonuses(???) - $7 billion

Total NEW Taxes = about $850 trillion (a 26% increase in federal tax revenue)

Things he wants to STOP spending on:

Anything/everything to Wall Street - about $200 billion
Military - $300 billion (which is almost HALF of our military spending by the way if you count this cloudy "buying stuff from the top-200 corporations" mystery)

That's literally the most absurd budget proposal I've ever seen in my life. Come on Tibs.... you really believe this is what's best for the Country? Really? $1 trillion more in taxes? A 30% increase in federal tax revenue?

 

[Tibs]

Total NEW Taxes FOR THE FILTHY RICH, HUGE CORPORATIONS, BANKS and WALL STREET FIRMS= about $850 trillion (a 26% increase in federal tax revenue)

Fixed it for you. It's about time we put an end to Corporate Socialism in America. No more free handouts to the freeloaders.

 

[deljzc]

If unions destroyed manufacturing with their greed and the government taxes destroy banks/finance/tech industries with their greed, what will America have left?

 

[Tibs]

..the government taxes destroy banks/finance/tech industries with their greed, what will America have left?

Oh, those poor folks in the top 1%, the millionaires and billionaires, my heart bleeds for them. Thank God they have folks like you deljzc fighting for their rights and livelihood.

Further, the top 400 Americans had net worth of $2 trillion in 2013, which was more than the combined net worth of the bottom 50% of U.S. households. The average net worth of these 400 Americans was $5 billion. The lower 50% of households held 3% of the wealth in 1989 and 1% in 2013. The average net worth of the bottom 50% of households in 2013 was approximately $11,000.

This wealth inequality is apparent in the share of assets held. In 2010, the top 5% wealthiest households had approximately 72% of the financial wealth, while the bottom 80% of households had 5%. Financial wealth is measured as net worth minus home values, meaning income-generating financial assets like stocks and bonds, plus business equity. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Income_inequality_in_the_United_States

 

[deljzc]

Yeah, you're right. We're better off without them.

When they leave, you and the democrats will be singing a different tune and finding another way to blame Republicans for falling tax revenue (way below Bernie's projections), increased deficit spending (because Bernie will spend whether he gets the tax revenue he's projecting or not), a weakening dollar, a sluggish stock market where every middle-class American has their retirement account, higher inflation, higher interest rates and higher unemployment (which will make the "need" for a welfare state in Bernie's eyes even more necessary).

This is the cycle that will happen if you try to increase taxes (doesn't matter on who) by that much. You can point the finger at those big, bad billionaires all you want, but his numbers above don't include those. It's people making $250k or $500k or $1 million. Small business owners. Risk takers. People breaking into the affluent club by their hard work despite you thinking it's just a game or inheritance.

I'm not even against closing loop holes or taxing them a LITTLE more over the next 10 years (let's see the effect on the economy first).

But Sander's plan is all about SPENDING and federal distribution of wealth on an unprecedented scale. And government spending is never efficient and always wasteful. You want to tax affluent Americans? I'll listen. But you better damn well cut taxes somewhere else because I don't think our government needs 25% more revenue (especially our federal government). That's just crazy.

It's a lot more crazy than worrying about building an $11 billion wall along Mexico. Let's just increase tax revenue for the federal government by $1 TRILLION so we can spend, spend, spend.

 

[Stewey]

Ask yourself where is Sanders' ever growing support coming from? Look at the numbers of people around the country that seem to be taking him seriously..